Interesting. Per the GCR, the safety car must pick up the overall leader. They should have waved by everyone until they got the overall leader.Originally Posted by Zcurves
Did the pace car pick up the overall leader?
I have no idea if this happened, but I have seen a race restarted without picking up the leaders before and it was a mess.
remember that per GCR 1.2.3, the word "will" is mandatory.
In my short experience as a flagger this is how a restart would work.
FCY is out no passing.
At the moment starter throws green drop FCY is commanded on comm network all stations pull in double yellow, if that doesn't happen then the F&C chief needs to get it fixed.
From this point we normally hold all calls from stations until the restart lap is completed unless the world falls apart.
So for the what if questions.
Lets say someone gets to throttle happy when they here green on their radio or when they see the flag coming in and spin the car. The station covering that area of track is going to pull down the double yellow when green is commanded and immediately display a waving or standing yellow depending on the location of the spun car. So single flag means someone screwed up don't go racing or it might end poorly.
For the first lap we would only display local yellows. So when you go under the starters stand again and find another double it means we've gone back to FCY for whatever reason.
If things go so far wrong that a FCY is needed before that first restart lap is done then your probably going to see a black flag all or red flag come out.
I'm going to be asking these questions at our first flagging meeting of the season to verify that at least our local group is all on the same page for a restart. I want to see a race not a mess because we botched the info we were giving you guys.
Mark Swick
So if the starter throws the green and the driver gets the call on the radio but the local station still has the yellows up what is the driver to do? obviously it's almost impossible to prove that the corner was slow to drop the yellow. The corner is going to call in the PUY. So is the right thing to do is wait and risk getting passed by other cars that also got the call or go and risk the corner calling a PUY? damned if you do, damned if you don't.
But just to be clear the rules say when the starter throws the green the whole track is hot regardless of if the corner is slow to drop the yellow, but just try to prove it!
The way the process is supposed to work is thus: Start goes Green, Race Control instantly tells the stations, "All stations, Go Green, Go Green", the stations drop their Double Yellows in unison.
In the real world, there are sometimes delays in Control's making the call or in stations responding.
You describe a case where the crew tells the driver that Start is Green, but the station in front of the driver is still Yellow, and the driver must decide what to do.
The short - but unhelpful - answer is that this should not happen. Unfortunately, it does.
At times like this, it helps to remember the meaning and purpose of the flags.
There are two kinds of flags:
Command Flags - Red, Black, and Yellow (Standing, Waving, Double).
and,
Information Flags - Blue, White, Slick, Green (or no flag)
Yes, Green (or no flag) is informational. It means that you may race, not that you must race. A command flag (e.g. yellow) means that you must do something.
A command flag always takes precedence over an information flag.
If you are presented with a choice between a command flag and an information flag, always obey the command flag.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
I do not believe the flagging stations called PUY at all at COTA in Group 5. All the PUY came from protests. It definitely caught the stewards by surprise; so much that they had to pull the lap sheets from T&S to figure it out.
But, hey, they knew it was going to be a "learning experience" and they asked us in advance for our "patience." Unfortunately, they did not charge "learning experience" entry fees.
One thing I learned is the importance of the GoPro. The SmartyCam is great for driver instruction, but the GoPro is the tool of choice in protests. It's much easier to spot a flag in HD. I even found where my protestor committed the same offense that he protested me for. How's that for poetic justice?
So basically ALL this boils down to is there was FCY and Green Flags being displayed at the same time which is technically impossible.
COTA Safety Team
This is a bit late to the conversation, for which I apologize, but I am not at all surprised by the lack of green flag laps that you all received. The person that runs the COTA Safety Team is an ex-CART guy and only knows how to function in one way. If there is a yellow of any kind, we go full course, they drive around for three laps, re-position, etc., etc., etc.
I am by no means diminishing the importance of that team or the value in having them. But it's no secret that they have always wanted complete control of eveything. It's refrehsing to see race directors like Barfiled and Paul Walter starting to realize you can do things under local yellow. Road America understands it and operates that way. No question there are challenges, but overall it performs well.
Unfotunately, I don't think the COTA team will ever get there. For comparison purposes, all of the years that F1 was at Indy there was no safety team. It's well known that F1 does not use them and has the marshall's respond. Indy has a safety team, but they understood the way F1 works. COTA had trucks everywhere even though not one of them moved or responded to anything and the FIA would never let them.
Take that for what it's worth.
Bummer, was hoping that would just be and help make this all go away. This just isnt worth it. Aside from having a blast when the track was green (including racing with JR, Ott, Coop and all), really wish I just stayed home or at least kept my mouth shut. Rules are rules and Nesbitt's and John Pauls posts above sum it up.
But no, losing face and friendships just isnt worth it. I hope to somehow re-kindle those. I do apologize and definately not how I wanted to enter FB.
So whatever the Stewards decide is fine by me. I'm also going to withdraw my protest about race 2. Just want to move on.
My plans for this season is to do the entire east coast series including the runoffs with JDR.
Lawrence Loshak
'13 FB & HP National Champion
'10 DSR National Champion
'06 EP National Champion
Just responded to SOM:
I would like to withdraw my protest against all competitors in group 5, especially Jose Gerardo.
I realize the weekend was learning experience for all and some mistakes were made. Therefore I don’t want to punish a new driver like Jose… I couldn’t pick a better person to take the win.
Congratulations Jose, I remember what it was like to win my first big national, you deserve it.
Lawrence Loshak
'13 FB & HP National Champion
'10 DSR National Champion
'06 EP National Champion
Race two video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IG_ukG5wm4
First podium for Philadelphia Motorsports DBF1000 car & first podium for Honda in the class as well
Race one video as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CehltEPpS_U
Last edited by JScarallo; 03.13.13 at 3:28 PM. Reason: Added race one link again just in case
Cota Protest
Thanks Lawrence and truly there was never a bad feeling on my part.
I am one for clearing everything without any doubts so that we can all move on without any regrets.
I will still send the video and still pictures to the Cota stewards as requested by them as it is the right thing to do, from what I have read I have what appears to be the only evidence of the incident happening at the exact time and place it happened, let's let the stewards do the right thing for which they volunteered to do.
if anything it may serve as a good training tool that may benefit not just us but the organization as a whole.
Best regards
Jose
Step on the gas until you see the bright light..... THEN BRAKE HARD !
Jonathan: Great video action, you had some interesting moments, and great job in controlling the car. Thanks for the video. It tells allot.
Mr. Loshak....I don't think you have to apoligize to anyone. I did not drive in the race, I did not attend the race, but did watch the live timing and live audio from SCCA. You have an excellent reputation and are a national championship driver. That alone says allot. Although I have never met you, it appears you are a man of principal, fighting and responding for what you feel is right. Nothing wrong with that. The dust will settle over the COTA controversary and I am quite sure in the future any events you enter will be pure racing, not past controversary.
I have raced with and against Jose Gerardo, who is a very class act person, and very honest person. He is a very aggressive driver. I am quite certain, that what ever the outcome of the final results are, Jose will go right along with what is decided. Jonathan's video tells allot. This was the first time Jose was in an F1000 and as I made posts before the race, I thought both he and Steve Ott would do well.
I wish the race could have only been the FB Class, as well as so many others do I am sure. There is no doubt that JRO, Ott, Loshak, Gerardo, Cooper and a few others would have had a real battle for P1, P2 & P3. There were so many positives to the event. Drivers had the opportunity to race at the number 1 track in the USA. New constructors like JDR, Astra, Philly had the opportunity to present their cars. Steve Ott, made a fantastic showing, just look at his times. Jonathan did well as so many others. So look at the positives and all drivers need to move forward, concentrating on building the FB class and concentrating on future events.
Although I no longer race in FB, I will continue to be a supporter of the class 100%.
All driver/owners, keep up the great racing, it's such an exciting class and the SCCA Live audio announcer did a great job presenting the FB Class via the internet broadcast.
Richard Dziak
Las Cruces, New Mexico
Former Phoenix F1K-07 F1000 #77 owner/driver
website: http://www.formularacingltd.com
email: sonewmexico@gmail.com
Thanks Richard!
The ending was priceless: Do it again?
JScarallo, great video, great drive !!! Congrats
"An analog man living in a digital world"
If you go racing due to a call of green and there is a late pull on the double yellow, I would be counter arguing that with the rule as written there needs to be proof that the passing started before the green was thrown. How that gets taken by the SOM is a who knows.
Mark Swick
So Wadda Ya Gonna Do About it?
I have sat back (a couple of times sitting on my hands) and stayed out of this.
Everyone has their own opinions and perspectives. Great. A couple of people have been a little "heavy" and I watched the "blame game" being played. Nobody wins in this sort of debate....but everybody loses. Bad blood and hard feelings.
You guys are better than this!
Here is what seems to be absolute
COTA flagging stations need to be better identified, and in a few cases, perhaps re-located so drivers can actually see them; they need to be in a drivers field of vision as they approach corners, ideally in line of sight within 15 degrees, not way off to one side or the other.
There seemed to have been a comprehensive lack of control/communication with flagging stations, particularly on the restarts. The result was chaos, multiple PUY events and some vehicle damage due to divergent speeds of some cars due to the restart confusion. Very dangerous and (in a few cases) expensive. Thank God that nobody was hurt.
There appears to be a lack of education/training/ability/experience in the corner workers that worked the weekend. Lack of reports of PUY's, slow responses to flagging (was it slow response or a lack of communication? I don't know). At the least it would appear that some work needs to be done to bring the level of corner work up to a higher standard than was displayed.
COTA management need to work more efficiently in picking up damaged cars, moving them expeditiously...perhaps new staff, untrained people, poor communication? Who knows. Again the result was really poor value for the racer.
There needs to be a CLEAR and CONCISE and ACTIONABLE set of rules specifically relating to course flagging and how to restart a race; this was obviously missing over the whole weekend. The rules need to be understood by ALL participants at every SCCA event, both as competitors and as workers. This is an obvious and glaring gap in SCCA's management of this event (and perhaps all races). Kevin spoke of numerous races where he had experienced the same. This appears to be an SCCA-wide concern.
So wadda ya gonna do with this information?
Somebody needs to compile this information, collect reports of SPECIFICS from competitors, then feed it up the chain into SCCA...be it to the BOD if needed; SCCA needs to resolve this specific problem, educate and CLEARLY STATE the rule interpretation back to competitors. Everybody needs to be working from the same interpretation of the rules.
This appears to be the perfect storm as it were. I am saddened to see so many taking sides in this matter instead of taking a positive action item away from this. As I said earlier, you guys are better (and DESERVE better) than this!
I have had dealings and multiple communications with both JRO and Lawrence. They are both straight, honest, decent guys. Both are real tough competitors; occasionally this is going to put two great guys in adversarial positions; I would suggest that we all let those two alone to work it out between themselves.
There is a ton of information (all valuable) in this thread; is there anyone in the F-1000 community who can put something together and send to the appropriate SCCA folk so some positive action can come out of this? Heck, I see this as the PERFECT case study to examine and see if there is an opportunity to make sure this doesn't happen again....I see COTA staff as part of the problem, but the fact that so many people have widely varying definitions of when to start a race shows me that a re-statement to clarify the rules is needed as a minimum; perhaps a clearer definition is needed.
You guys are some of the BEST racers in North America and are racing the BEST class of race car out there! You have taken what was once one guy (Jeremy Hill) running via a loophole in FC and have made it into one of the best subscribed, best looking, best engineered, sounding and performing open wheel classes in SCCA, dare I say it, the world. I really mean it!
This seems to be the time when you all need to pull together and use this generally unsatisfactory weekend as the impetus to make your racing better and more fulfilling.
Please don't ever forget how LUCKY you all are to be doing what you love.
Best, Tom
Tom Owen
Owner - Browns Lane and Racelaminates.com
Tom,
I liked what you wrote however you forgot to address the drivers at all. Only the people who passed under yellow blame the flagging stations instead of themselves. Many drivers have been on here saying there was no issues with the flagging stations & they could see them clearly.
Steve Bamford
I'll take exception to that.
I don't believe I committed a PUY, but I have two that happened to me on video. (Did not and will not protest, as one was immaterial and I got the other position back under green).
I had trouble ID'ing flag stations, and I'm still not sure I know where they all are. Not an excuse, but I think it was a real issue for some of us. After the second or third station, though.....?
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
Agreed. But many drivers said specifically that certain corners were hard (or near impossible) to see. I think there clearly is room for improvement. COTA needs this feedback so they can respond (or choose to ignore, but at least they know).
Good officiating with proper reports coming in from the corners would have eliminated most all of the post-event blame game and the PUY culprits would have been admonished. Didn't happen.
Any racer worth his or her salt will stretch every rule to their advantage; it is cheating only if you are caught! That is why we have officials; to keep the playing field as level as possible. As well, if a certain venue has many, many more reports of PUY than other tracks, it becomes clear to organizers that they have a problem. No reports, everybody stays "fat and happy".
Forcing competitors to protest what should have been simple rules enforcement is not acceptable IMO. I see almost all of the above posts a direct result of inadequate officiating. I am not casting blame, I am saying there is a gap clearly identified that needs to be addressed.
I also see a huge gap in understanding what is the proper (and there should only be one) way to re-start a race, this understanding needs to be clear, well communicated and understood by all competitors, workers, etc.
Peace
Last edited by brownslane; 03.13.13 at 6:50 PM. Reason: clarificationisms
Tom Owen
Owner - Browns Lane and Racelaminates.com
Heck, what do you know about COTA?? You just kicked everyone's butt in two different classes. Now, if it were three then maybe I'd listen......
To be clear as well, I was not talking about the Group 5 restart as I would have to question what I would do in that instance...seeing cars take off & others pass you would make me want to get on the right pedal as well.
I have video that I could have used but in mixed class racing I don't think it would be sporting & the winner was deserving. That said I wish the corner workers had of called in any PUY so the drivers wouldn't have to file any protests & then competitors would be less upset with one another.
Marshell I can not speak to if you did or did not PUY nor do I want to as I have no place in your run group. I am with you though, after 2-3 stations you think most drivers would see it.
Steve Bamford
Great video Jonathan. WTF @ 0:35?
Coop,
Empty your PM inbox!
My guess is he was STILL looking for the flagging stations
[QUOTE=Bam Bam;382810]Tom,
I liked what you wrote however you forgot to address the drivers at all. Only the people who passed under yellow blame the flagging stations instead of themselves. Many drivers have been on here saying there was no issues with the flagging stations & they could see them clearly.[/
Respectfully, I never said that I didn't accept the blame for my PUY. It was an honest mistake. It was the first in 6 years of racing. I have been to VIR, CMP, RRR, NJMP, Rd Atl, and Mosport and had no issue. Tom's correct that the stations should be in the line of sight. It was poor design.
I'd bet you a dime that 3 of the top four Atlantic drivers and a national champion SR driver that passed me and several FCY stations thought they had no problem seeing them either. Even the driver who rightfully protested me was surprised to see my video of him passing another FB under yellow. We didn't wake up last weekend and forget the rules. The shear number of PUYs make it pretty obvious that layout contributed here.
Ha inexperience mistake with F1000 6 speed box and being in the wrong gear.
Used to running in F2000 where you only have 4 gears and if you have to check up because of a crash like that you stay in the same gear usually because the gears are so spread out you cant go down one, with these because they are so close I needed to go down one when I lost my momentum to avoid the crash...oopsy will know better for next time, made the same mistake when JRO got taken out thats why I had no speed coming out.
Sorry Jonathan, not meant for you. I was referencing Coop getting used as brakes.
I just reviewed my video of the Sunday race...leading going into turn one the FC's & FE's, as we had a split start. First station on the front straight no flags, 2nd station after turn in (on right) is displaying double yellows, run down to turn two next station on left below bridge on left is displaying double yellows, turn in for three & on right side about turn 4 area is displaying double yellow...I make turn 4 with my hand in the air & turn 5 where there is another flag station on the right, guess what...it too has to yellow flags out! Then at the exit of 6 a FC drives past me...going into 7 another station on the right with double yellows, 9 a FE passes me, guess what another flagging station there too...by this time I am yelling in my radios, in 10 he passes the FC & finally by 11 it seems people see the double yellows, or at least figure out what they mean. Mean while all that was occurring in my mirrors other FE's & FC's where seemingly trying to pass me as well. Keep in mind I had my hand in the air since turn 4 but put it down by 6 when I saw what was happening.
The FE slows after 11 to allow the FC he just passed under double yellow by & allows me to drive past...slowly. I drive up beside the FC that past & put my hand up in the (without using my finger more as what the heck)...he allows me slowly past...ok, back in position. We end up there till the end of the race. I approach the FC who is in my class & ask why did you pass me with my hand in the air, he says he thought it was a point by & my car was all out of shape at that point (I guess I didn't hold my line great with one hand in the air) & there were no flags out...Wow. I thought it was done & over with at that point.
I have a flight in at 6 & it is now 4:30 so I head off to the airport where my crew informs that there was a protest filed against me for retaking the lead when I shouldn't have as the competitor thought there was no caution flags out. After my crew had some discussions with the other team they with drew the protest but it still left me a little ticked.
Granted the flagging stations aren't the best, however it can't be that bad that the SCCA's National drivers aren't paying attention to the whole track or can it???
Steve Bamford
[QUOTE=Zcurves;382835]The stations are not the greatest, after reviewing my video I agree but some are in great sight lines and were missed...this baffels me. Based on the number of PUY I agree there could be improvements but also other drivers need to pay more attention. If they are missing multiple flagging stations then what else are they missing?
Steve Bamford
Again.....it's a half a billion dollar track, why the F...k didn't they use the million dollar lighting system instead of flag men??? I saw pictures of them using the multi million dollar video system to monitor the track....didn't someone know where the switch was??? ohh, pope francis pray for the scca
The lights used by F1 are brought in by F1 (and removed when they leave.)
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
That is a good reason why I never saw any lighting systems any where...I was wondering where they were.
Steve Bamford
Like Peter stated, the lights are almost always owned by the series and they bring them with them. ALMS owns their own, IndyCar owns their own, etc.
That's not to say that the track couldn't have put some in, but each series runs/operates them differently so it would probalby be a waste of time and money.
Two things about flagging at COTA. With it being a proper circuit built for F1 and containing large amounts of runoff, all of the flagging stations are extremely far off course. Through the esses, as an example, the stations are no where near the circuit and I am not even sure if you pick them up in your line of sight when in the car.
There was an epic error made on the landline that was installed for F1. It was put in by a very large phone service provider in the US and it was totally a** backwards. Landlines are supposed to function by allowing all people to talk at once. This system only allowed 6 stations or something to be on the same conversation as one another, and even then, only one station could talk at a time. For F1, we used FM radios, believe it or not.
So, to John Nesbitt's points earlier, the flag condition commands when using a radio system with 20 some stations becomes extremely difficult.
Lastly, it's absolutely fantastic that we have this amazing circuit in the US and I hope it's home to F1 for a long time. By no means do I envy Lone Star Region or any other region that attempts to staff a race there. Local regions will not be able to get nearly enough works to staff 20 corners plus substations. While watching Grand-Am from the weekend before, there was one worker per station it appeared. This is not safe nor the most effective way to run a good event. I can only imagine how few workers they had at this event and how many stations may have been un-staffed.
Drivers responsibility
The asteemed Mike Eakin (Purple Frog) was my Driver instructor at the Drivers School at Roebling Rd in 08. After I missed a flag, he suggested I acknowledge the workers in the stations on both warm-up & cool-down laps.
A) You will know where they are located.
B) They may save your behind some day, so it's good to give them a wave.
All of the above issues you have had could have been resolved if the corner workers call in the PUY's. Their lack of communication of these events forced you to "request" other drivers, while on track, to let you back by. It also resulted in the unfortunate protest that affected you. Regardless of the good or bad locations of the corner flag stations, each and every PUY should have been reported and acted upon. Apparently few were.
I am sorry that so many people have had this good/bad result from the weekend. Good in that the venue is awesome, exciting and challenging. Too bad so many people were affected by protests, loss of position by PUY's, etc.
Last edited by brownslane; 03.14.13 at 10:24 AM.
Tom Owen
Owner - Browns Lane and Racelaminates.com
By no means am I defending that PUY's should not be called. I would suggest going out and standing on the shoulder of the interstate during rush hour. Look at on-coming traffic so you can protect yourself and then tell me how much you can see that is happening behind you.
If there was one worker per station (which I am guessing there were in cases) this is the exact same situation, you can't see everything.
Positives from weekend
Without a doubt there were some negatives in the COTA weekend.
But on a positive take a look at EFCN (www.EformulaCarNews.com). Probably the top open wheel site in North America and its flooded with PR for the US F1000 Series. For today they took my race one video in the Philadelphia Motorsports DBF1000 and made it the headline story for the entire website today as apart of "EFCN TV"
So hopefully a start to build positive PR for the class, series, car builders etc to help with growth. And special thanks to Al Craighead & Rob Howden from EFCN for everything they do. Now that I am old enough as of October will have to buy them a cold one next time I see them.
The main point of Tom's post seems to be missed here in the discussion: leaving aside who passed whom and whether it was intentional or not and leaving aside whether the corner workers were late in pulling the flags, there is an open question that is still not resolved:
Is the entire course green when the starter displays the green flag?
Either it is or it isnt. That question needs to be resolved one way or the other and the specific rule made clear in the GCR and at drivers' meetings so that everyone will know how to deal with a situation where they hear "green, green, green" in their ears but see double yellow with their eyes.
So which is the better rule?
1. Whole course goes green when start/finish throws the green, regardless of whether a double yellow is still displayed in a corner leading up to start finish?
or
2. Each section of the track remains independently controlled by the corner stations?
If there is a consensus then a request for the rule to be clarified can be made.
The GCR says yes, and the rule is clear. The problem only comes in when the other stations are late dropping the double-yellow flags. Dropping them early is not a problem, because racing does not resume after a restart until the green is given at the starter stand.
This whole question can be resolved by simply advising all flaggers to drop the double yellow when the pace car pulls off the track, or when the leader is two turns from the restart point. Once this has happened, drivers may begin racing again ONLY when the green flies; any re-display of yellow is clearly intended to indicate a new incident.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
I really don't understand the confusion about a yellow flag being displayed at the restart. In hindsight it does not make sense and if a yellow flag is displayed it should NOT be a double yellow. However, it is entirely possible that a car could have stalled on track or spun on track during the restart. If that was the case a yellow flag is needed. And also in that case the yellow flag MUST be obeyed. At that point the drivers did not know what the situation was. I believe any yellow flag displayed at a corner station needs to be obeyed, even when I hear green,green,green. Just my 2 pennies.
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