CoTA-official thread

[racerdad2]

Why not a cockpit light system with green, FCY & red ? It would seem to be rather simple. Controlled by the starter. Local yellows a bit more complex.

[Tifosi]

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com...-race-control/

[jose gerardo]

Yep, this is what we need.
Can anyone give me feedback as to what the cost per system should be ?,
I was thinking about 600-800 dollars per car plus have
Each region purchase the control system.
What do you guys think?,
I will talk to nick belling next month at Laguna about this and
We can possibly start something , but we really need realistic
feedback so that we may attract a manufacturer, the former
engineering manager for msd and they might have interest.

[andyllc]

Grand Am has used an in car yellow flashing light system for years and overall I think it is a great idea....easy to get people to buy it....make it mandatory....not any different than a fire bottle or a helmet.

[Richard Dziak]

Jose:

Looks like the Racing Electronics system may be the lowest cost around $300 per setup for each car.

However, I am sure that you would have to get this "SCCA" approved and each region or track would have to make an outlay of cash in order to develop and buy the necessary equipment to transmit the signal to the race cars.

Racing Electronics is one of the premier racing organizations in communication equipment to the motorsports industry, and the provider of communication equipment to NASCAR and many other organizing bodies. Perhaps a call to them on Monday might help, as they will provide costs and the efficiency of the product they have developed. I am sure they might also be able to provide with racers that are already using the product, so you may conduct more due diligence in this matter.

Doubtful that MSD or Danny could help on this situation, but certainly worth a try. The RE product seems ready to go. The cost to develop and produce a product like this may take a long time, and have a limited audience for MSD.

[cooleyjb]

Lets fundamentally change things in SCCA because people had problems with COTA. (regarding the addition of safety lights in cars)

That's exactly how this problem should be handled.

[jose gerardo]

I think i will ask a recently retired friend to help me with this project.
What do you think Richard?, you want to tackle it together?.

Jose

[Marshall Mauney]

Guys, do we really want to add one more added-cost item to a car build? This may seem like no big deal to guys in FA/FB/FC/FE, but when you start thinking about SM, FV, F500, CF, ITx, and all the vintage and regional-only low-$$$ classes, it's probably a non-starter.

Nice to have? Sure. Worth the expense of requiring it in every car and having to implement it at every track? I think it's an uphill battle...... Do you really expect to see the signalling placements installed at Hallett, Nelson ledges, Blackhawk Farms, Grattan, Gateway, etc.?

[Richard Dziak]

Jose:

Sent you a PM.

[Zcurves]

Heck yeah! If it will make a $5k race weekend less of a mess, what's a few hundo? What's the cost of going around a blind turn full hot because some flagger was late to deploy and totaling your ride (or even worse)?

Plus, how much does it cost SCCA to put two or three corner workers on a station when they could get by with one with this system? This is especially true in a declining worker volunteer environment.

[Richard Dziak]

I have agreed to assist to Jose Gerardo in the investigation of an electronic system to send a signal to the cockpit of the car to determine a green or yellow track.

All feedback from the drivers here on F1000 is most welcome in regards to this idea. Please provide your input.

I have doubts on whether or not SCCA regions or tracks would use funds to make this happen, but one never knows.

[gmac]

How about one way radios? Works for the dirt guys and gals. You get track information from the horse's mouth, and the radio can go from car to car for those lucky dogs who run more than on class.

[Northwind]

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/c...eiver_Scanners

I picked one up at the end of last season but have not tried it in the car yet.

[openwheeler37]

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/c...eiver_Scanners

I picked one up at the end of last season but have not tried it in the car yet.

These were mandatory for the drivers when I raced Legends cars. A track official used these inform drivers of track conditions ... like cautions and debris on track. These could be a great, cheap, easy way to help resolve the issue of driver's not knowing the flagging conditions.

[mark 21]

The corner workers are not just there to throw flags. They are the people who start to put out the fires in our cars when they are in flames. They cut us out of our belts when they are jammed and we need to get out of the cars, because we are in danger. They keep us in the cars because it may be safer for us then to try to get out in the middle of traffic. They tell us when it is safe re-enter the track when we go off track. They call race control when we have parts coming off your cars and we keep racing because we can not see that something is wrong with our cars and race control does not see it either. There are at least three corner workers at most stations for a reason. They all have different duties that are very different and important for our safety as drivers. They are also volunteers. They do not get payed. The track safety personal are the ones that get payed and it is not much. They do their jobs for the love of it. We as drivers have to be more aware of the surroundings around us. If we are not seeing the flags or do not know what they mean, then we should find out where they are and learn what they mean. We should obey them also. The faster classes may have a harder time dealing with the flags because of the speeds. That makes it more important to be prepared for flags and knowing what to do when they are throwing them. Missing them or failing to obey them is putting others in danger not just yourself.

[Northwind]

The corner workers are not just there to throw flags. They are the people who start to put the fires in our cars when they are in flames. They cut us out of our belts when they are jammed and we need to get out of the cars, because we are in danger. They keep us in the cars because it may be safer for us then to try to get out in the middle of traffic. They tell us when it is safe re-enter the track when we go off track. They call race control when we have parts coming off your cars and we keep racing because we can not see that something is wrong with your cars and race control does not see it either. There are at least three corner workers at most stations for a reason. They all have different duties that are very different and important for our safety as drivers. They are also volunteers. They do not get payed. The track safety personal are the ones that get payed and it is not much. They do their jobs for the love of it. We as drivers have to be more aware of the surroundings around us. If we are not seeing the flags or do not know what they mean, then we should find out where they are and learn what they mean. We should obey them also. The faster classes may have a harder time dealing with the flags because of the speeds. That makes it more important to be prepared for flags and knowing what to do when they are throwing them. Missing them or failing to obey them is putting others in danger not just yourself.

Well said Mark.
I agree 100%

We can't have too many corner workers They also assist in anyway needed at the corner including oil spill clean up. Keeping a watchful eye on the condition of cars and calling in contact. These are just a few things, there are many more to list. The events schedule would spiral out of control with out their help.

[jaltaman]

Me.

Wow, I got a chance to see Tim's video and there's no doubt about it - I passed under yellow in T11. Oops.

That's very humbling, and I can't believe I did that. So add me to the list of those who missed seeing yellow flags. It's unreal, because I pride myself on paying attention. Or used to....

It's bad enough to have passed under yellow, but to have protested others for doing the same after I had done it makes it even worse.

So to Tim, James and Rod, I sincerely apologize. This was a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black.

My bad.

-John

P.S. Sorry guys for the delay in my posting, I was on the road down to SoCal to drop the car off at Edge and Gary let me know I should log onto apex when I got back. Boy, was he right.

[DanW]

Thunderhill has bee using yellow lights at the corner stations for test days and customer track days for more than two years.

[Blair Robertshaw]

In the Pro Mazda Championship they use what is called the Indy Car Icar System. The system is controlled by timing tower. The hardware that you buy is at a cost of $1350, then Indy car rents you the transponder for $300 for the weekend. They come and collect the transponder post race.

It generates full course yellow, indicates when you are about to go green and indicates red flag track status. It is a huge benefit all the time and it's even better in the rain. It does not indicate local yellow. Dont know if it has the capability but I would expect something could be programmed and then a hand held unit for the corner station but again, cant say for sure.

[Tiago Santos]

Think of how hard it was to mandate a Hans device, I doubt the in car lights idea will do down well. I'm all for it, but I just can't see it happening for SCCA.

Some comments about the post above that said the tracks could then get by with 1 worker per corner station. Part of our driver licensing up here in BC is to spend 3 days at a corner station while going through the novice program. Here's a couple of thoughts:

- Like someone else said above, corner workers are also an important part of the safety crew, putting out fires, checking in on drivers after crashes, etc.

- Every time I flagged, there were two workers facing opposite directions - one checks the area around and ahead of the corner for spins, wrecks, debris, etc, the other checks oncoming traffic, blue flags, etc. They're also covering each other's backs, warning each other if something comes flying at the station.

- Can you imagine spending 8 hours standing at a corner, by yourself? As much as the volunteers love racing and want to provide us with an awesome experience, it's also a social event for them. They get to spend a bunch of hours hanging out with one or two friends. As hard as it may be to find 2 or 3 workers per corner, I think it'll be even harder to find only one!

[James Michael]

I agree. So because we can't use the F1 lighting system at COTA, let's all go spend 1K-2K to solve the problem, oh and btw probably won't work at any other facility.
One corner worker per station? No, that's foolish.
Look COTA had it's share of problems in part due to huge car counts but if we could use the F1 lighting system and reduce car counts per group, it would be work much better.

[JByers]

SCCA is full of respectful members.

Jason

[Richard Dziak]

In car signaling system update/research:

Today, I spoke with one of the premier race communication companies reference the in-car signal system. While I don't have all (the/my) research completed it looks like the cost to implement any such type system would be cost prohibited at this time.

Some of the considerations to the cost basis of the system.

1) Cost is dependent on the number of cars on track at any one time. The more cars on the track, the larger the transmitter system has to be in order for the race control to send the signals to all cars/drivers.

2) Cost is also dependent upon the size and layout of the track. A one mile oval will result in a lower cost for the track or region as the transmitter will send a signal to a shorter distance from race control or a race tower. A larger track and predominately a road racing track will cost more as the signal has to be sent to much longer distances.
i.e. Big difference is the system cost for a track like Road America vs. a PPIR (Pike's Peak International Raceway) or PIR (Phoenix International Raceway).

3) In order to be effective within any one group all cars should be equipped with the signal unit. In a 20 car field/entry, it would not do much good if only 10 cars were equipped vs all 20. Same with multi class event/races as seen at COTA Group 5. Those cars with the signal device would have an unfair advantage over those cars without the device.

4) It is doubtful that any one track would use funds for the sysytem to cover one or two classes, thus it would create an expense for all cars and all class participants.

More to follow.......

[Steve Bamford]

I just reviewed my video of the Sunday race...leading going into turn one the FC's & FE's, as we had a split start. First station on the front straight no flags, 2nd station after turn in (on right) is displaying double yellows, run down to turn two next station on left below bridge on left is displaying double yellows, turn in for three & on right side about turn 4 area is displaying double yellow...I make turn 4 with my hand in the air & turn 5 where there is another flag station on the right, guess what...it too has to yellow flags out! Then at the exit of 6 a FC drives past me...going into 7 another station on the right with double yellows, 9 a FE passes me, guess what another flagging station there too...by this time I am yelling in my radios, in 10 he passes the FC & finally by 11 it seems people see the double yellows, or at least figure out what they mean. Mean while all that was occurring in my mirrors other FE's & FC's where seemingly trying to pass me as well. Keep in mind I had my hand in the air since turn 4 but put it down by 6 when I saw what was happening.

The FE slows after 11 to allow the FC he just passed under double yellow by & allows me to drive past...slowly. I drive up beside the FC that past & put my hand up in the (without using my finger more as what the heck)...he allows me slowly past...ok, back in position. We end up there till the end of the race. I approach the FC who is in my class & ask why did you pass me with my hand in the air, he says he thought it was a point by & my car was all out of shape at that point (I guess I didn't hold my line great with one hand in the air) & there were no flags out...Wow. I thought it was done & over with at that point.

I have a flight in at 6 & it is now 4:30 so I head off to the airport where my crew informs that there was a protest filed against me for retaking the lead when I shouldn't have as the competitor thought there was no caution flags out. After my crew had some discussions with the other team they with drew the protest but it still left me a little ticked.

Granted the flagging stations aren't the best, however it can't be that bad that the SCCA's National drivers aren't paying attention to the whole track or can it???

Finally got home & had a chance to shorten & upload my video. You will have to pause the video to see the stations & the flags. No flags at turn one, you start to see them at the 2nd flagging station.

http://youtu.be/hK6WeR-T4L0

aren't in great sight lines but there are enough to see them...eventually anyways.

[Zcurves]

So if the flags were so easy to see then why we're there so many PUY? Now I don't feel quite so bad, I only missed one station. It is a rare occasion at tracks in the SE. I've raced with Paul in the SE and he is a respectful, talented driver. Looks like he realized and let you by.

[Steve Bamford]

So if the flags were so easy to see then why we're there so many PUY? Now I don't feel quite so bad, I only missed one station. It is a rare occasion at tracks in the SE. I've raced with Paul in the SE and he is a respectful, talented driver. Looks like he realized and let you by.

Yes Paul is very respectful & I had/have no issues with Paul...we even talked about it at RA last weekend. He saw what happened & gave his position back without arguement.

I was leading so had a clearer view then everyone I am sure of the stations. What I was upset about was finding out afterwards there was a protest against me...it was dropped thankfully but at the time I was upset.

The fencing for the flagging stations makes it more difficult then some where like RA where the stations are in clear view.

[glenn cooper]

is really long poles that can be poked through the chain link fence.
On the end of those poles will be a revolving barrel type arrangement with all the needed flags stored inside. By pushing the color coded lever, the matching flag will be pushed out the barrell, and automatically unfurled.
If it's a flag that needs "waving", merely jiggle the end of the pole to provide movement.

I am NOT the design guy, I am the IDEA guy: you book smart fellers get to work on it!

(Did ya notice that some of the flag stations were in the shade, making it even harder to see?).

At this point I have no idea if I ever saw them all.
I DEFINITELY saw the big ass'd yellow squares after awhile.

The promised, or "on the schedule to happen" track walk/tour/golfcart sighting lap thing could
have helped potentially alleviated some issues.

[Zcurves]

I agree. Fencing, distance from the track, yellow squares indicating rail sections all made it difficult to see the flags. None of that was taken into consideration when giving out penalties. Oh well, hopefully it will be corrected before we return.

[glenn cooper]

[Marshall Mauney]

I agree. Fencing, distance from the track, yellow squares indicating rail sections all made it difficult to see the flags. None of that was taken into consideration when giving out penalties.

...and in fairness, it shouldn't be. That said, it certainly seemed to be an issue that merits some attention.

Heck, even a track map that shows the flag stations would be helpful....I still am not sure I know where they all were.

[BWC54]

Heck, even a track map that shows the flag stations would be helpful....I still am not sure I know where they all were.

Was there one? I never could find one. There was nothing in the supps. There was nothing in the packet received at registration. What they gave us for the Thurs. test day didn't show them.

[Mike Devins]

Big white banners hanging on the cyclone fencing directly behind the line of sight to the flags may help as well, may have been better in person but even in high def some of the flags were hard to see in the videos.

[Marshall Mauney]

Final results are posted. I'm guessing that not everyone will be happy with the final outcomes.....

[LLoshak]

Well, at least its over and we can move on.

Lets all try this from now on, especially at tracks we've never been too. Locate and identify all stations first couple laps on track. Most importantly, after every session, waive to the corner workers. It helps a ton and makes them smile.

See ya at the track.

[John Nesbitt]

Lets all try this from now on, especially at tracks we've never been too. Locate and identify all stations first couple laps on track.

And that's why stations display a White flag for the first lap of qualifying - so drivers know where the stations are.

[mousecatcher]

How about this.

After your first outing at a track, WRITE down some notes about which corner is which, what line, braking point, etc you want to take. Then get a track map and MARK all the flag stations on it.

On your next session, count how many people are working at each station.

How many folks can go back now, without any aids, and describe where the stations are? There's no excuse for not being able to do this. If you can't, take a lesson from that.

[Nicholas Belling]

See website

http://www.usf1000.com/Standings.html

[Zcurves]

Guess the "standard penalty" for PUY isn't so standard. Maybe I'm in an alternate universe and my logic is opposite (like Planet of the Apes). Why would some cars get less than the "standard penalty" if they also PUY? They were still racing over half a lap under FCY. I'd like an explanation from the Division Steward and I think I'll ask for one.

[John Nesbitt]

Guess the "standard penalty" for PUY isn't so standard. Maybe I'm in an alternate universe and my logic is opposite (like Planet of the Apes). Why would some cars get less than the "standard penalty" if they also PUY? They were still racing over half a lap under FCY. I'd like an explanation from the Division Steward and I think I'll ask for one.

The "standard penalty" is a guideline only. Stewards may depart from the recommended penalty according to particular circumstances. (You can find a copy of the 2013 Guidelines at driverinfo.johnnesbitt.com.)

The Club tracks these things. During the 2011-2012 seasons, 90% of penalties for infractions covered by the guidelines followed the guidelines. The remaining 10% split about evenly between stronger and weaker than the guidelines. Also, PUY is by far the most penalized infraction.

I was not at COTA. I know nothing about the particular circumstances of your incident. By all means, contact the steward and have a discussion. If you cannot reach him, contact Tom Brown, the Executive Steward for SWDiv (and also chairman of the SOM for the COTA event).

Be aware that the GCR gives you specific rights (protest and appeal) if you believe that you were treated unfairly. (If you need help/advice with that process, see the Driver Advisor on Call document on my website.)

[JohnPaul]

The thread that will outlive Herpes...