Formula Vee questions

[kayakanimal]

Just purchased a Formula Vee to autocross and have a few questions I hope someone can point me in a good direction on this.

The engine is a stock 1600 with a dual barrel web carb.
It does not have a cooling fan. It does have an oil cooler.
It now has cooling scoops on it. (See second picture...NOT me in the car! ) Should I leave the scoops on?

My next question is about keeping it cool. I will be running it in New Orleans. It get pretty hot here in the summer. Thoughts? What are you doing for yours?

Also…what about if I go with either dual carbs or change the engine to 1915cc? Does the same answer apply now?


Speaking about the engine…which would be better for autocross?
1.Dual Carbs
2.1951cc

Thanks in advance for any help.

[kayakanimal]

Did I post this in the wrong group?

[Daryl DeArman]

Not sure you have a very active group of FV autocrosser people here....cooling needs and engine options don't transfer to the road racing group. FV road racers that never autocrossed one would be making a guess.

Have you also posted on the FV interchange? Might have better luck with those particular questions there.

[S Lathrop]

It looks like you have a very good Zink FV, post 1969 model. As originally built, this car had a fan housing from a 36 hp engine. The later 40 hp fan housing will not fit.

I think you should be careful about how you modify this car as it is valuable for vintage racing.

The head scoops shown in one of the pictures are from an 84 Citation and might work for autocrossing. This car did not cool very well without the fan. But in its day, this was the dominate FV.

[Lynn]

Use the current engine as is until it needs a rebuild. SoloVees are never going to be competitive, so just enjoy the car as is. Get some wider wheels and tires. Maybe get a lighter battery.

If the car doesn't have a head temp gauge, you need to get one. Get a garden sprayer and spray the heads when the temps get over 300.

Steve is correct. Don't make changes to this car that can't be easily undone. It is more valuable as a vintage road racer than it is as an autocrosser. The dual carb engine would probably result in the need to cut up the body.

[mwizard]

I can't resist...Your biggest problem with over heating will be on grid and waiting to run/slowly moving up in line. A co driver will increase this problem. Duel carbs would tend to reduce overheating a bit. 1900 kit would increase over heating, probably a lot. My formula ford has an electric motorcycle fan to help a bit. You could maybe hook up 2 of them.
Mark

[TedV]

My brother cracked metal of a motor that was hot and hit it with cold water. Thermal shock isn't good. I have seen Vees with electric cooling fans which I think is a more safe solution. Downside is more weight to carry in batteries. Cylinder head temp gage is a must have to tell you if whatever method you use is working.

[kayakanimal]

Another question…
It came with a FST carburetor installed. The car use to be raced SOLO. The owner gave me the 44 Weber for it (shown in the picture above). The stupid question…how do I get it installed? I can’t get the manifold off. Not enough clearance. Someone that owns one of these…do I have to drop the engine somehow to get it off?

[BLS]

The engine/tranny comes out easily. I have my old Zink raced in the 70's. It took less than an hour to remove the engine and transmission together (when you did it frequently). After you disconnect wires, fuel lines, shift linkage, clutch cable, throttle cable, etc., there are 4 bolts that hold the rear assembly to the frame. Support the engine / gearbox from underneath, take the nuts off the 4 bolts, slide the front half of the car forward. You now have the car seperated in two parts and have access to the engine. Unbolting the engine from the tranny is simple enough should you decide to seperate it further.

Regards,
Barry

[budawe]

Basically, I agree with everything folks have said. I would recommend not modifying the engine since your autocross competitiveness is likely not to change. Changing carbs is likely to complicate tuning and probably will not yield a lot of hp increase unless done with cam and head changes as well. If you have a crew, push the car up to start and a short autocross run would likely not overheat the motor too much. Unlike cars with radiators, fans are not likely to help unless they are moving a lot of air over the cylinders and heads. It looks like you can still put a fan shroud on this car and that would be my recommendation. You will be able to drive the car all day with no issues and times would only be slightly slower since driving and timing are so important to SOLO.

You may PM me if you wish to discuss further. I have been a VW nut longer than I'm willing to admit.

[kayakanimal]

Breaking the frame into 2 pieces sounds like the best way to go. I was thinking that might be but didn't want to "break" anything. I will get a helper and try it this weekend. I think the 44 IDF Weber should help on HP.
Thanks!

The engine/tranny comes out easily. I have my old Zink raced in the 70's. It took less than an hour to remove the engine and transmission together (when you did it frequently). After you disconnect wires, fuel lines, shift linkage, clutch cable, throttle cable, etc., there are 4 bolts that hold the rear assembly to the frame. Support the engine / gearbox from underneath, take the nuts off the 4 bolts, slide the front half of the car forward. You now have the car seperated in two parts and have access to the engine. Unbolting the engine from the tranny is simple enough should you decide to seperate it further.

Regards,
Barry

[jwolf]

I run 2 former Formula Vee as Autocrossers,
One is a stock 1960's vee with 1200. the other one is similar to yours it has a stock 1600 with a Weber 2 barrel on it.
It has a the stock fan and the top tin, but no bottom tin, it has and external oil filter and 4 row cooler. We have a small SCCA group so we run fairly fast, no time to shut it off and cool it. It also has a large pan putting total oil volume at 5 quarts.
It will heat up on 80+ days so I added 4 small electric fans on the cooler and now I can keep the oil temp around 210 degrees on the hot days. I do not have a co-driver we run 4 runs, swap with workers and 4 more runs, total of 8 run with a break after 4.

Formula Vee's used to run FM and got our butts kicked by the 2 strokers
This year we are CM so we can get our but kicked by the FF's. But I would rather get beat by a FF Pinto than a Red Devil weedeater.

A Formula Vee is not going to be competitive in SCCA .
Maybe close if you went total Solo Vee with a 1920cc, wide tires and disk brakes but you are still giving up a lot in suspension.
With that said, Go race it and have a blast don't worry about winning.
Also look in to any Vintage race car clubs in your area.
I run with the Midwest Oldtimers Vintage Race Car Club. We only do exhibition runs but I have a blast running on some great tracks like Indy and Salem. I also run mine on some dirt and clay tracks. It's the greatest deal in racing you pay like $20 a year membership, No charge at any of the races and you get 2 pit passes and great parking free, have fun showing and driving you car and watch a great night of racing all for free.


Maybe Vees aren't winner but they are fun.
I have a lot of video, posted on youtube contact me if you interested.

[BLS]

It's really not very difficult. I did it by myself more times than I care to count. Just have something to hold the engine tranny up and it will slide right apart...

I did forget, you have to disconnect the trailing arms which takes a couple minutes. When you back the trailing arm bolts out be cautious as you reach the end of the threads. There will be some force from the springs trying to pull the arm back which can bugger up your bolt/threaded hole. The force is not a dangerous amount, you can hold it by hand. Just keep some force on the trailing arm pulling forward as you get to the last of the bolt threads.

[Mark_Silverberg]

Actually if you run a ratchet strap from the trailing arm forward to the beam you can back the front bolt out completely and remove it - then release the strap while holding the trailing arm with your hand.

I did forget, you have to disconnect the trailing arms which takes a couple minutes. When you back the trailing arm bolts out be cautious as you reach the end of the threads. There will be some force from the springs trying to pull the arm back which can bugger up your bolt/threaded hole. The force is not a dangerous amount, you can hold it by hand. Just keep some force on the trailing arm pulling forward as you get to the last of the bolt threads.

[BLS]

Actually if you run a ratchet strap from the trailing arm forward...

That would require a brain, something in short supply around my place apparently.

[kayakanimal]

Would love to see the videos. What should I search for to see yours?


Never mind...found them. Had already been watching them for a while.
What size rims are you running?

I run 2 former Formula Vee as Autocrossers,
One is a stock 1960's vee with 1200. the other one is similar to yours it has a stock 1600 with a Weber 2 barrel on it.
It has a the stock fan and the top tin, but no bottom tin, it has and external oil filter and 4 row cooler. We have a small SCCA group so we run fairly fast, no time to shut it off and cool it. It also has a large pan putting total oil volume at 5 quarts.
It will heat up on 80+ days so I added 4 small electric fans on the cooler and now I can keep the oil temp around 210 degrees on the hot days. I do not have a co-driver we run 4 runs, swap with workers and 4 more runs, total of 8 run with a break after 4.

Formula Vee's used to run FM and got our butts kicked by the 2 strokers
This year we are CM so we can get our but kicked by the FF's. But I would rather get beat by a FF Pinto than a Red Devil weedeater.

A Formula Vee is not going to be competitive in SCCA .
Maybe close if you went total Solo Vee with a 1920cc, wide tires and disk brakes but you are still giving up a lot in suspension.
With that said, Go race it and have a blast don't worry about winning.
Also look in to any Vintage race car clubs in your area.
I run with the Midwest Oldtimers Vintage Race Car Club. We only do exhibition runs but I have a blast running on some great tracks like Indy and Salem. I also run mine on some dirt and clay tracks. It's the greatest deal in racing you pay like $20 a year membership, No charge at any of the races and you get 2 pit passes and great parking free, have fun showing and driving you car and watch a great night of racing all for free.


Maybe Vees aren't winner but they are fun.
I have a lot of video, posted on youtube contact me if you interested.

[kayakanimal]

Do you run the alternator with the fan or something different?

I run 2 former Formula Vee as Autocrossers,
One is a stock 1960's vee with 1200. the other one is similar to yours it has a stock 1600 with a Weber 2 barrel on it.
It has a the stock fan and the top tin, but no bottom tin, it has and external oil filter and 4 row cooler. We have a small SCCA group so we run fairly fast, no time to shut it off and cool it. It also has a large pan putting total oil volume at 5 quarts.
It will heat up on 80+ days so I added 4 small electric fans on the cooler and now I can keep the oil temp around 210 degrees on the hot days. I do not have a co-driver we run 4 runs, swap with workers and 4 more runs, total of 8 run with a break after 4.

Formula Vee's used to run FM and got our butts kicked by the 2 strokers
This year we are CM so we can get our but kicked by the FF's. But I would rather get beat by a FF Pinto than a Red Devil weedeater.

A Formula Vee is not going to be competitive in SCCA .
Maybe close if you went total Solo Vee with a 1920cc, wide tires and disk brakes but you are still giving up a lot in suspension.
With that said, Go race it and have a blast don't worry about winning.
Also look in to any Vintage race car clubs in your area.
I run with the Midwest Oldtimers Vintage Race Car Club. We only do exhibition runs but I have a blast running on some great tracks like Indy and Salem. I also run mine on some dirt and clay tracks. It's the greatest deal in racing you pay like $20 a year membership, No charge at any of the races and you get 2 pit passes and great parking free, have fun showing and driving you car and watch a great night of racing all for free.


Maybe Vees aren't winner but they are fun.
I have a lot of video, posted on youtube contact me if you interested.

[BLS]

Not an autocrosser, so take this with that in mind...

It would be a simple solution to start with a fan housing and gutted generator. You shouldn't need to charge the battery so no need to lose the hp driving the generator (or alternator). This would provide cooling without any worries. After you get to a certain level then you might want to look at other cooling options to eliminate the hp loss of driving the fan. The Zink will require the older 36hp type fan housing, readily available on the VW specialty parts websites. You run a very loose fan belt which allows for lots of slippage especially while accelerating, decreasing the hp loss. At idle while waiting you'll have the cooling you need.

It's the same way FV was run up until the requirement for the fan was eliminated.

[DaveW]

Back when I ran FV, I ran a 2L sized belt to just turn the fan at 1500 RPM or so. It basically sat at the base of the V-groove in the pulleys. I also used graphite on the belt so it wouldn't stick to the pulleys. Almost no HP loss with this. They're $5 to $7 at McMaster Carr.

[jwolf]

Do you run the alternator with the fan or something different?

The one a autocross most of the time has and alternator and Sardini one has a generator but neither one are total loss systems.

looked in to running it total loss this my research/conclusion was:

I decide I would run the numbers on my FV withthe alternator
and see how they came out. The other gain would be less weight, Shipping weight
of a replacement Alternator is 20LB, a smaller battery may gain some back.

Amps x Volts = Watts
Watts / 745.7 (one HP) = Electrical HP Produced by the Alternator
HP x 15% Efficiency Loss = HP Loss
HP + HP Loss = Total HP Used


Example: my 1970 VW alternator is 50 amp
50A x 14.9V = 735 Watts
735 Watts / 745.7 = .985 HP
.985 HP x 15% = 0.147 HP
.985 + 0.147 = 1.132 HP Total

And that is only if it is pulling full load. (never)
You also have it add in the efficiency factor of the engine's ignition system
when running at 12 volts or less compared to 14.8 volts. From what I have read
on a coil/points system the horse power gain from strong voltage would exceed
the gain from no alternator.

From the MSD and other sites: This is for a Late model SBC so some of it may not
apply to autocross but he math and testing is still valid. Here are some
excerpts:
"running without an alternator "is the wrong way to go." On point systems,
horsepower drops of 3 to 30 hp are not uncommon due to low voltage levels. The
direct-induction ignitions are typically designed to be used with 14.0 to 14.8
volts of input for maximum efficiency. "
"On CD system 16-volt battery, we would see no increase in combustion efficiency
and horsepower output over using a 12-volt battery," Ryden explained. In other
words, the units keep the output consistent even though the input is not. What
does happen with a CD ignition system is that once the battery output goes below
a certain voltage, the ability to release a substantial charge is affected and
the system may not operate correctly. It was noted the below 11.5 volts most
system failed to operate correctly."

Their conclusion;
"The following recommendations are based on our research and the information we
received:
* Don't run without an alternator if you're using an inductive ignition system
such as an HEI or something similar.
* If you're planning on running without an alternator, you need to install an
accurate voltage meter so you can monitor the voltage levels in your battery.
* It might be a good idea to run two batteries. With the modern, small, light
battery packages (such as the DynaBatt we run in our Late Model stock car),
running two batteries is not a weight disadvantage. The battery box in our car
is built for a standard-sized battery and will easily hold two of these smaller
batteries. Then you can install a battery switch similar to the ones used on
boats and, if need be, switch batteries when the voltage gets low.
* Another idea would be to run the accessories off a separate battery from the
engine/ignition system's main battery. Things such as the electric radiator
fans, electric fuel pumps (if you use one), as well as the starter all draw lots
of amps to deplete your battery.
* Always charge your battery whether you run an alternator or not. When the car
is in the pits between practice sessions and while waiting for the start of the
race, charge that battery. There are cheap charging systems available that could
be installed in place of some of the ballast weight (so you're not adding weight
to the car). These units trickle-charge the battery and have an automatic
shutoff when the battery is fully charged. Along with a recessed male 120-volt
plug, you could run an extension cord to the car and easily plug it in when the
car is not on the track and even when it's in the shop.
CONCLUSION
This was a fun exercise and one which we think broke ground somewhat. We don't
like unknowns for any system on the race car, and when we were trying to decide
whether or not to run an alternator on our own Late Model stock car, we decided
to investigate a little further.
The last thing you or I need when we get in the position to win is for our
ignition system to break down. So we think it's a fair trade-off to give up the
2 or 3 horsepower and gain a lot of reliability. That's our decision and we're
sticking to it."

[jwolf]

Would love to see the videos. What should I search for to see yours?


Never mind...found them. Had already been watching them for a while.
What size rims are you running?

In the videos you will see basally (other than treaded tire stuff) 3 rim sizes

all 15 inch
Stock VW 4 inch wide smoothies with Hoosier 20x 4.5-15's
Stock VW 4.5 inch slots with Goodyear 21x5x15
Aftermarket 6 inch Stars with Hoosier 23 x 9 x15 ( I think)

My best times are with the stars and the wide used Spec Miata tires on them, they can be had cheap. No more than the car weighs he tires will last a longtime.

[jwolf]

Back when I ran FV, I ran a 2L sized belt to just turn the fan at 1500 RPM or so. It basically sat at the base of the V-groove in the pulleys. I also used graphite on the belt so it wouldn't stick to the pulleys. Almost no HP loss with this. They're $5 to $7 at McMaster Carr.

I have some of those belts that came in a box with the Kenny Brown Performance Racing Vee I have, but I never used them. They look like sewing machine belts


In auto cross HP is not as big of and issue as weight. My 60 HP Vee is faster that my Viper on the autocross track and way cheaper on tires. My Vee has better times than almost all of the full bodied cars except maybe some of the all out Prepared like SSP and they have far better drivers than I am. My philosophy is drive it like you stole it and have fun, VW stuff is cheap to fix and if you get a trophy ever once in a while great but have fun even as a looser.

One other point if you run a total loss system and you forget to charge it your done, no jump starting and going out.


Only problem I have had is building too much pressure in the crank case and blowing out valve cover gaskets. I have gone to great lengths to correct that, I also dropped max RPM to 4200 rpm , when I had it on the Dyno The motor was done at 4200 rpm, only reason I had it at 6200 rpm was to try to not have to shift as often, because FV's shift so well.

I am using the engine fan to create a vacuum to keep the gaskets in the valve covers and the oil in the engine. I know this cuts down the cooling effect of the fan.

[jwolf]

One point on Tires The SCCA inspector will want you to air your tires up to 30-40 PSI so go ahead and do it, then chalk the the tires and look for rollover and run them about 12-14 PSI where they grip.

[kayakanimal]

One point on Tires The SCCA inspector will want you to air your tires up to 30-40 PSI so go ahead and do it, then chalk the the tires and look for rollover and run them about 12-14 PSI where they grip.

Are you trying to read my mind?
THAT was my next question. Tire pressure. Will be running Hoosier 25r's.
8x13 front and 10x13 rear.

12-14 lbs huh? I will try it. My 1st autocross is April 7th.

Thanks to EVERYONE for their great input.

[jwolf]

Are you trying to read my mind?
THAT was my next question. Tire pressure. Will be running Hoosier 25r's.
8x13 front and 10x13 rear.

12-14 lbs huh? I will try it. My 1st autocross is April 7th.

Thanks to EVERYONE for their great input.

Just chalk or tire crayon the tread sidewall area of each tire 2 or 3 places.
just keep letting air out a pound or two at at a time till the side wall rolls (your mark missing from the side wall) then put air back it so you are using the max of the tread but none of the sidewall. Do this on each tire.
With my big tires aired up mine mine bounced like a beach ball.

With the smaller tires I run around 18 PSI

[Lynn]

12 psi in the front and 14 psi in the rear is a good place to start. Half pound changes can alter the way the car handles noticeably. 18 psi in the Hoosiers will be like driving on ice and very little of the tire will be in contact with the ground. The chalk on the sidewalls doesn't work well with the Hoosiers.

[jwolf]

12 psi in the front and 14 psi in the rear is a good place to start. Half pound changes can alter the way the car handles noticeably. 18 psi in the Hoosiers will be like driving on ice and very little of the tire will be in contact with the ground. The chalk on the sidewalls doesn't work well with the Hoosiers.

It makes a difference the surface too my pressures are for 1942 Concrete ( WW2 Air Base) that is like a cheese grader. On pavement the pressure would be lower. The weight of the car make a difference my car is heavy I would guess over 1400 lb with driver. The Brown I will be driving this year is much lighter and I may have adjust pressures. As far a marking the tire I put about and inch on the sidewall and up on inch on the tread and I can see exactly where the tire is rolling.
Temperature makes a difference, We just don't get enough runs to totally dial it in and I am not that good of a driver to feel everything so that is why I use the chalk method.

[kayakanimal]

Looks like I will be running the Goodyear rain slicks on the front tomorrow. Any suggestions on pressures for them?

12 psi in the front and 14 psi in the rear is a good place to start. Half pound changes can alter the way the car handles noticeably. 18 psi in the Hoosiers will be like driving on ice and very little of the tire will be in contact with the ground. The chalk on the sidewalls doesn't work well with the Hoosiers.

[Lynn]

Looks like I will be running the Goodyear rain slicks on the front tomorrow. Any suggestions on pressures for them?

The term rain slicks confuses me. Rain tires are not slicks and have are treaded. If the course is not wet, rain tires will possibly overheat and chunk. I am not familiar with Goodyear race tire, but I think they use somewhat higher pressures than Hoosiers.

[kayakanimal]

First let me start out by saying I have ALWAYS wanted to make a FV into an autocross car. I was NOT disappointed!!! I think it was the most fun I could have with my clothes on!
I set my tires pressure originally to
1. Front Goodyear rain slicks 14
2. Rear Hoosier 25B slicks to 15

I was running the Goodyear’s up front because my supplier could not get 8X13 25B to me by the race. He has 35b but I thought I should wait for the 25b to be in stock. I knew there would be some push for now but I thought I needed to get use to the car anyway…

We did a “mirror” autocross. 3 runs in the morning going one way then 3 runs in the afternoon going back the other way.

In the morning I was pushing quite hard but running the Vee was FUN!!! OMG… Like a go-kart on steroids! The rear stuck like glue. The faster I got the more the front pushed. I realize the front (hopefully) will be fixed when my new tires come in.

In the afternoon I Increased the rear pressure to 19 hoping to make the back equal to the front. It worked! I could do some "throttle steer" and get the rear to swing around in the tight corners. I was only about 1.5 seconds off the FTD and the car did much better. It still did push but was more controllable.

All in all it was a GREAT day! Looking forward to getting my front slicks AND adding my bigger carb when I have time.

Thanks to all the help and great advice!

Bruce

[kayakanimal]

I was just told I might have to wait a while to get the Hoosier 25b. I can get the 35 compound at a reduced price.
Thoughts?

[TedV]

by "8x13" you do mean the straight sidewall Hoosier part number 43169 20.0 x 7.5-13 and not the cantilever sidewall 43171 20.0 x 8.0-13 intended for 6" wide rims?

you will want the softer R25 for solo, unless your car and the lot eats front tires, the R35 will never really come into its temperature. How long is the wait? You might be able to pick up some used tires for the front and save your rains cheaper than the discounted R35's

[kayakanimal]

by "8x13" you do mean the straight sidewall Hoosier part number 43169 20.0 x 7.5-13 and not the cantilever sidewall 43171 20.0 x 8.0-13 intended for 6" wide rims?

you will want the softer R25 for solo, unless your car and the lot eats front tires, the R35 will never really come into its temperature. How long is the wait? You might be able to pick up some used tires for the front and save your rains cheaper than the discounted R35's

All I know is they are the 8X13. I am ordering used.
Went ahead and ordered the 35's. Needed something else for now other than the rain tires.

[TedV]

You might want to call and find out if you have the tire designed for production cars or the Hoosier marked 20x7.5-13 designed for formula cars/sports racers that has an 8" tread on the way. I've seen this switch from GY to Hoosier sizing cause confusion in the past.

[kayakanimal]

Picture from this past weekend race.

[Dave Welsh]

Bruce

Glad that you had fun in your first outing with the car. It looks like your next project with the car will be raising the height of the roll bar.

[kayakanimal]

Bruce

Glad that you had fun in your first outing with the car. It looks like your next project with the car will be raising the height of the roll bar.

YUP!!! Already working on it.

[BLS]

Dang, you must be about 7 ft tall! I'm 6'4 and fit below the roll bar in my old Zink.

[kayakanimal]

Dang, you must be about 7 ft tall! I'm 6'4 and fit below the roll bar in my old Zink.

6'4".
Long legs so I had to change the seat to be able to get into it comfortably.

[kayakanimal]

You might want to call and find out if you have the tire designed for production cars or the Hoosier marked 20x7.5-13 designed for formula cars/sports racers that has an 8" tread on the way. I've seen this switch from GY to Hoosier sizing cause confusion in the past.

I got the 22x8x13 35B. I will know better next time. These should be ok for local racing. I did buy used. $70 each and $15 each shipping.
Good or bad price?