Age requirment

[Cameron Racing]

I say thanks to Les Phillips for bringing grassroots racing back to life the west coast and for helping to revice the lost art of training racers.

In the seasons I worked at Jim Russell at Sears Point 1998-2009 I saw roughly 100 race weekends in the Formula Russell cars (Mazdas)- 4-5 groups of 20 cars - and thousands of people come in to do 1/2 day, three day in FF and FMitz, three day in Mazdas. We built a kart track too.

At one point we had 63 karts, 44 race cars and highway survival training all going on simultaneously.

I trained 400+ Mechanics and they drove too.

I have seen a lot of crap happen at Sears. We killed noone and only had one helipcopter ride that I recall.

In all that time and all those laps we had one and had only one constant - Racers, young and old.

They were young ( Scott Speed, Alex Rossi and other kids) and older (Bud Moller, John Schafer, Jim Graber and other masters).

They competed, they laughed, they flipped each other off then slapped each other on the back.

They raised each others game, old guys ate better and drank a little less Sonoma Wine and the kids showed respect for the expeirence around them.

We were family.

Les and Steve and Bobby and Brian and Peggy and Jackie have the same heart as Jim Russell himself : Race car drivers are raised not born and its incumbent upon us to teach.


Words I heard in that time that may make you want to come compete in Pacific F1600:

" Yous guys use your heads, or I'll put you in the gaaaarage", Jacques Couture. ( Les will park your ass if you are a dousche bag. )

" Just drive it.", Mark Wolocatiuk ( nuf said )

" Maybe its not the car", Carroll Smith ( ha ha I sure miss that guy )

Come out and race gentlemen it will do you a lot of good.

Well said Skeezix! I have trained drivers from 8 to 50 yrs old and can tell you the younger drivers listen, learn and are far less likely to put there ego before their ability!
If you have not seen a group of Juniors race karts Rotax, TaG or 125 S5 shifters then you really have not witnessed the experience, race craft and maturity they have!

The bigger picture is that we in racing need to offer the young generation the same opportunities as they can find in "extreme sports" at this age. Racing a FF is far less dangerous than the other sports that a 13 yr old can compete in, ie: Snowboarding, BMX, Midgets, Moto X, Skate boarding, football!! etc etc.

I am extremely excited that Les has opened this door for our future stars and positive that this will be a huge step forward in rejuvenating open wheel road racing in the US.

[racerdad2]

[Tom Valet]

For me it's not so much an issue of age per se but an issue of experience and maturity. Even in karting there are age limits. In most kart organizations you cant race a shifter kart at age 12. Yet we are now proposing to let 12 year olds race Formula Fords with no prior full size car racing experience?

Even a 12 year old who has raced shifter karts or who has extensive kart racing experience will have no prior experience driving a full size car, either on the street or on the track.

And that to me is the biggest concern. Not that the 12 year old isnt talented and not that he doesnt have years of experience with kart racing, simply that driving a full sized car is completely different from driving a kart.

(And yes, I know, driving a shifter kart 10/10ths is much harder and physically demanding than driving most full sized cars 10/10ths, but the dynamics between the two are completely different, eg, spin in a kart and you stop within 5 feet. Spin in a car and you likely wont stop for a long time).

I will assume that before any 12 year old is giving a race license they will have to demonstrate that they are capable in a race car and not just get a license based on prior karting experience.

[problemchild]

The bigger picture is that we in racing need to offer the young generation the same opportunities as they can find in "extreme sports" at this age. Racing a FF is far less dangerous than the other sports that a 13 yr old can compete in, ie: Snowboarding, BMX, Midgets, Moto X, Skate boarding, football!! etc etc. .

As good parents have been telling their kids for generations .....
" Just because Johnny jumped off the bridge, it does not mean that you had to".
The term "minimum age requirement" exists because society does not trust children and their parents to make the best decisions. There is a reason why minimum age requirements keep children from participating in dozens of activities from joining the military, to buying a drink, to driving a car.

I am extremely excited that Les has opened this door for our future stars and positive that this will be a huge step forward in rejuvenating open wheel road racing in the US.

This will have no effect on rejuvenating open wheel racing. It just means that a handful of parents will chase their dreams by spending alot of money with a different group of promoters, and that their kids will be washed up at 16 instead of 19. Its all about creating a niche in the market and cashing in.

[Steve Bamford]

What age does the British FF Series & other entry open wheel series in Europe list as their age minimum?

I believe there is a huge weight difference between karts & a FF that some aren't taking into consideration as well.

I prefer to race against drivers who actually have driven on the street & have a road license as there is some inherent defensive driving skills that youngsters simple won't have.

[KevinFirlein]

SCCA min age is already 15 so those kids likely wont have a street license. Oddly enough I havent read anything about 'those damn 15 yr olds crashing everyone all the time' either.

For everyone on the East coast it doent matter those series have made their call, I just think its a mistake. I am in favor of what the west coast guys are doing.

[racerdad2]

My point on young guns moving up FROM karts to FF is that karting teaches you a great respect for open wheel racing & teaches you situational awareness. Kids of ant age without open wheel experience have little respect for just how dangerous our sport can be. EVERY karter has learned some very hard lessons... The big shut at Sebring this year proves that the learning curve in open wheel racing is very steep. Had the FC driver had karting experience, he would have already learned to hold your line, never flinch, hold your brakes when you spin oncourse, etc. Rookies Learning to race in open wheeled cars is pretty sketchy at any age.

[Purple Frog]

Kevin,
It is not a matter of F1600CS "making a call". There wasn't much discussion. Pure and simple, our sanctioning body (SCCA Pro) and insurer said "no".

[KevinFirlein]

Frog I mentioned that in an earlier post that SCCa Pro made a mistake

[Steve Bamford]

Why not make it ok for 8 & 9 year olds too? Some have been driving karts since they were 5. Based on many peoples reasoning they should have the required experience then too.

[Daryl DeArman]

They've been driving really slow karts preparing them to drive faster karts in a few years. Just like you don't see 10 year olds racing 450mx.

What you do see is an overweight grandfather with early stages of alzheimers that has failing hearing and eyesight requiring coke-bottle glasses to get to 20/30. He can race FA or DSR with no prior race experience just becuase he can write a check and paid attention to the flags in drivers' school while driving a rented SM at 70%.

[Tom Valet]

So what makes 10 years old too young for 450mx but 12 years old just right for Formula Ford? The fact that Herta's kid is 12?

[a. pettipas]

So what makes 10 years old too young for 450mx but 12 years old just right for Formula Ford? The fact that Herta's kid is 12?

One is physically possible, the other is not.

[Steve Bamford]

They've been driving really slow karts preparing them to drive faster karts in a few years. Just like you don't see 10 year olds racing 450mx.

What you do see is an overweight grandfather with early stages of alzheimers that has failing hearing and eyesight requiring coke-bottle glasses to get to 20/30. He can race FA or DSR with no prior race experience just becuase he can write a check and paid attention to the flags in drivers' school while driving a rented SM at 70%.

Did you forget the medical requirements? Seems that it was missed in this last quote.

I am not arguing with anyone that some older drivers can cause issues but this thread was about 12/13 year olds driving open wheel cars.

Many kids I have seen come out of Karts seem to thinking bumping is alright. They have learned this time & time over again in karting.

[Daryl DeArman]

So what makes 10 years old too young for 450mx but 12 years old just right for Formula Ford? The fact that Herta's kid is 12?

One is physically possible, the other is not.

Exactly, A FF is phyiscally very easy to drive. We aren't talking about a 12y.o. in a FA, FB or DSR; A FF.

[Daryl DeArman]

Did you forget the medical requirements? Seems that it was missed in this last quote.

Nope. Correctable to 20/40 is perfectly fine. No requirements to be able to hear. Someone in early stages of Alzheimers likely won't know it and a physician isn't likely to discover during a physical.

[problemchild]

Nope. Correctable to 20/40 is perfectly fine. No requirements to be able to hear. Someone in early stages of Alzheimers likely won't know it and a physician isn't likely to discover during a physical.

So, we cannot trust a Doctor.

But we can trust a promoter and the child's parents.

[cearl19]

Sorry if I missed it being mentioned earlier in the thread, but what is the average age of a driver in this series?

18 y/o here.

[Daryl DeArman]

So, we cannot trust a Doctor.

That's a leap. How'd you get that from my comment? I'm saying the club has decided that it's okay for the aforementioned old, failing-health guy. But not okay for the youngin'. Someone mentioned that my hypothetical old guy wouldn't pass the medical, and I'm saying he absolutely could and likely has.

And yes, I think Bryan Herta likely has a better idea as to what his kid can/can't do than you or I.

[grumpyf14d]

This question of age and maturity can be documented back before Aristotle who once wrote that there are three stages in a youth’s development ending at age 21. Today, recent scientific research makes 25 the time which the brain has reached its full maturity with 32-34 being the crossover point where experience levels are unable to offset physical ability. As far as motorized vehicles there is plenty of work ongoing to try and raise the legal driving age to well beyond 16 because it has shown a fairly large decrease in accident rates, mostly due to better decision making. Heck, look at the rental car companies who use 23 as their minimum age for the same reasons. This all the while allowing 18 year olds to fight for our country where they have the ability to decide who lives or dies at the pull of a trigger which can be seen as hypocritical. Even the legal system has a view on age and maturity that spans trying 10 year olds as adults and at the same time moving the drinking age to 21. Add in other legal factors when it comes to competing for prizes like the contractual age of 18 and child labor laws that begin at 14 in most cases.


Now let us consider an individual’s minimum age when competing in top tier athletic competitions. In the Olympics it’s anywhere from 14-17 depending on the event and 18 for most other forms of sport. So what age should an individual be able to compete in automobile racing? IMHO it should be determined through a mix of legal and ethical standards. There is plenty of precedence in elite athletic competition that points to 14 as a minimum age along with a legal stance that comes in somewhere between 14 and 21. So, when it comes to competing in a series that includes vehicles like a FF, to go below 14 I think you are crossing a line that can be seen as unethical and weaves in and out of what could be considered legal. In the risk to gain matrix, I can’t see how the gains outweigh the risks especially when today’s success at the highest levels in motorsports does not equate how early one started racing.


Keith

[problemchild]

That's a leap. How'd you get that from my comment? I'm saying the club has decided that it's okay for the aforementioned old, failing-health guy. But not okay for the youngin'. Someone mentioned that my hypothetical old guy wouldn't pass the medical, and I'm saying he absolutely could and likely has.

And yes, I think Bryan Herta likely has a better idea as to what his kid can/can't do than you or I.

Daryl, we obviously have much different views of parenting.

I actually know a guy who believes the minimum drinking age laws are a joke, so he lets his 14 year old drink at home or with him. Can you imagine the trouble that has caused at family functions and within the neighborhood? I expect he will end up in jail. He considers himself a responsible parent.

I do not think that a 12 yr old child's parents should be making that decision. I don't think a promoter, especially one running a FF/FC Series with combined grids averaging 11 cars, should be making that decision. I don't think coachs, prep shops, etc should be making the decision of what's best for a 12 yr old.

I am glad that Mike Rand does not have to make that decision too. He, like any promoter, has responsibilities to many people and we cannot expect him to be looking out for the health and well-being of individual 12 yr olds.

And yes Daryl, I don't think that I, if I had a 12 yr old, should have the option of deciding to letting him race with men in cars.

[racerdad2]

Well said Grumpy ! I must admit, this a tough one. I personally have seen 12 year olds capable of a 'racing maturity' far beyond their years & racers of all ages that are truly 'racing immature'. Grumpy makes a valid argument. After all these comments, IMHO, 14 is a good minimum age....

[Tom Valet]

Hard to find a definitive answer online but to answer questions from above, British Formula Ford age appears to be 16 and Australia appears recently to have lowered their age limit to 14.

[Steve Bamford]

Hard to find a definitive answer online but to answer questions from above, British Formula Ford age appears to be 16 and Australia appears recently to have lowered their age limit to 14.

Thanks for answering my question Tom. Some have said the US has fallen behind because of not bringing talent along young enough, so I am curious how this could be if other areas of the world don't allow open wheel racing till later then we do here.

[grumpyf14d]

In the UK the answers are 14 in closed wheel (Ginetta Junior at 14) and 15 for open wheel (Intersteps). Race series sanctioned by MSA is 16 which is where the main racing series gets their rules from (FF, Formula Renault, F3, etc).

One comment I would like to add but not at the expense of the discussion is that when Team Scholarship USA comes over here to race the drivers are very mature in not only their race approach but also how they handled the media. This I would imagine would be due in part to their exposure at an earlier age. Success beyond that has not been guaranteed which I imagine is down to ability and opportunity.

Keith

[sauce_racer]

So can I ask how y'all feel about immature 16 year olds racing? I know plenty of the 16 year olds that I raced with weren't that much more mature than 12 year olds. SO with that said whats the problem? When I was 16 if anyone had any problems with something I did on the race track, they confronted me. We discussed it like adults (my Dad was always right there with me to help with this) and they were more than willing to offer me words of wisdom on how to improve my driving. If that dynamic is possible with 16 year olds who AREN'T that mature, why don't we try and find that with a 12 year old?




I think this argument has reached its end, if you don't want to race with 12 year olds, then don't go to that race. PLAIN AND SIMPLE SOLUTION.

I think that Bryan Herta knows his child's abilities better than any of us on this site do. Let him make that choice for his child and make your own for your children. I know my parents couldn't wait to get me out of karts and into a FF but I had to wait until I was 16.


Meg

[Daryl DeArman]

Daryl, we obviously have much different views of parenting.

Perhaps. I didn't mean to imply that ALL parents know what's best for their kids. There are bad parents everywhere. There are delusional sports parents at every tournament I've gone to and some karting parents that don't seem to have a firm grasp on things. Last time I was in WalMart I'm pretty sure I saw some bad parenting skills.

However, when it comes to GOOD parents, they are certainly capable of deciding what's in the best interest of their kids more than someone else.

Like Meg said, if you don't want to race against a 14 year old kid, don't.

[grumpyf14d]

Some solutions seem very easy on the surface, but the consequences of not making a well founded decision can cost an entire community. There are very sound reasons to create age limits in racing, this needs to be decided based on a multitude of factors, one of which though should not be emotion. There are also very sound reasons why parents should not have the ability to decide if their kids can take part in a competition no matter how qualified they may be to do so. Bryan Herta I'm sure can decide better than most whether or not his son can drive a car but he still will not be able to give him a drivers license for a multitude of reasons.

When people act like mature adults it's easy to have discussions where common ground can be found. It's when people don't act responsibly that we have significant problems and the legal process then has to kick in to decide who is right and who is wrong hence why there needs to be a legal slant to the decision. When things go right there are a lot of kids out there that can handle themselves, it's when it all goes pear shaped that kids might not have the coping skills to deal with the outcomes of their actions or those of someone else.

[KevinFirlein]

Disclaimer : The USF2000 series Winterfest is over and no 14 yr olds were hurt in the making of this race series.

Still not sure about 12 yr olds but the youngest driver I've tested in a FF1600 is 13 and after 2 days he had dropped the track record by over a full second back when we all still ran kents. He was the son of a team owners empoyee that I had done testing for. The thought was to rack up testing mileage so that when he reached legal age he could race for a national championship right away. In the end when the time came the kid decided he wanted to spend more time on his school work as he graduated early and was looking at Ivy League uni's.

Yes testing is different then racing but I went out in the back up car at one of the tests and basically abused the hell out of him to see how he would handle it and he did spin once at 1st but after that he learned how to handle the pressure of me squeezing the hell out of him w/o flinching at all.

[Westroc]

As Mr. Firlien just mentioned if I can paraphrase correctly. One of the necessary prerequisites to a successful progression up motorsports is mental toughness. Key ingredient. Having taken 3 Karting 2 cycle kids directly from karts to FC each had a challenge with this factor. I imagine qualifying will be brilliant but when it's Sunday afternoon and it's time to dice hard I would tend to not see this factor to the degree necessary. What if you need to qualify 3rd to support a team mate for points. 12 yrs going to comprehend a team mate driving for points-OR other competitors. I will have a hard time there.
It's sorta like getting recognition at work it is such a powerful tool and never used. The mental toughness to do what needs doing despite pressure sometimes overwhelmingly. Some of this only gets developed from earning the T-shirt.

[Les Phillips]

Best to stay with the facts. Pacific F2000 and F1600 is not racing 12 year olds. Our minimum age is 13. I said we have tested for years kids that are twelve and a few even younger. They were not racing.

On the motorcycles we do race younger kids on Mini Moto bikes on the .7 mile kart track. When they jump to the big track they have proven to be very skilled. I think AFM and even WERA allow 11 year olds to race up to 125 cc. Not certain but it might even be 250 cc. I rate the risk a bit tougher on a bike than in the well protected and modern FF.

Les Phillips

[eboucher]

I don't see much difference between a kid who doesn't do his own work and a rich banker who doesn't know where the gas goes in his car.

I have run plenty of older guys who could care less if they crashed and could care less who they crashed into.

Just comes down to the individual, like has been said before, and that's why the kids are approved only on a case by case basis.

Well put Dave. I just got back from instructing at this year's drivers school and we had a 15-year-old that was not only the class of the field, but also one of our most mature and together students. Great head on his shoulders with excellent decision making skills.

My point being, I've seen plenty of 50-year-olds with more money than talent or brains over the years, who could care less what damage they do to their equipment, your equipment, or YOU. I'm fine being on track with a youngster that demonstrates solid decision making skills to go along with his or her speed.

Eric

[Zac.B]

Just before you guys read my 2 cents worth, i am 19 years old, saved up all myself to pay for the car and the maintenance/ running costs. I have been racing for 2 years now, no karts before, i came straight from bmx racing into my formula renault.

IMO, anyone who is getting strapped into any 'real car' should know what they are getting themselves into. My biggest thing is a 12 yr old has no value on a $60,000 pro FF. For someone even 15-16 with a great job thats at least 3 years of saving up and thats just for the car. If 'daddy' pays for it all they have no idea what they've done when they have wrecked the car. The best way for someone to appreciate what they are doing is to have them pay for it. Plus a 12 yr old isnt thinking about what if i get injured and cant work for the rest of my life. This same concept still applies to the 60yr old banker who makes 300k a year. He knows what it takes to pay the bills and what not, whether or not he cars about how much it is, is a different story. What i'm saying is i would rather race along side someone who completely knows the risks, physical and finical. With this in mind 16 is the ideal age cause at that age they have started to get a taste of the real world.

[Steve Bamford]

Well said Zac.B!

[Skeezix]

I hear that Herta didn't cause chaos and in fact the older drivers were feeling more challenged and over all THill was a good event. So who is coming to Buttonwillow?

[Neil_Roberts]

The Pacific Pro series is safer than SCCA club racing for everyone involved, including young drivers. There is one simple reason for that: the No Move Rule. No blocking, period.

If you get a good enough run on the car in front of you, the pass is yours. The same goes for the other guy after your slight bobble. Everyone is required to play nice. That rule is the best idea I have come across in a very long time. It encourages passing and it reduces the risk of contact.

It does prohibit a natural instinct that is allowed to varying degrees in other environments, but the No Move Rule makes for an unusually safe racing environment for a young driver.

[Steve Davis]

The Pacific Pro series is safer than SCCA club racing for everyone involved, including young drivers. There is one simple reason for that: the No Move Rule. No blocking, period.
...

Hmmm... maybe some bright individual should submit a CRB request for that rule in SCCA ?? That sure sounds like the SAFE way to do things in the CLUB environment.

Steve, FV80

[racerdad2]