You are likely already doing so.Originally Posted by mike g.
You are likely already doing so.
What scares the poop out of me is the question of what happens when someone that young gets hurt? Maybe it's just paranoia, but I can almost hear a mother saying as she chokes back tears "My little angle's life is ruined by the racing accident they had" and claiming that a child that age can't appreciate the consequences of their actions, can't be held to a contract at that age, my ex didn't tell me he was taking him racing, etc. etc.
One of the lawyers want to make me feel better and explain that you think a waiver signed by a 12 year old, even co-signed by a parent, will stand up in court? As in another thread, it's hard enough getting adults to take responsibility for their own actions and not play the blame game.
From the appendix on licensing, GCR page 137:
A completed Parental Consent, Release and Waiver of Liability,
Assumption of Risk and Indemnity Agreement and a completed
Minor?s Assumption of Risk Acknowledgment must be submitted
to the Club Racing Office.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
No feel good stuff here; some will some won't, it depends upon the jurisdiction. The Florida Supreme Court was unpersuaded a few years back by a minor's release under circumstances similar to what you describe. I believe the state legislature promptly thereafter addressed this issue. Most of the release and indemnity agreements contain the universal language that has been worked out over the years much to the effort of K&K and by and large they will hold water. Insurance coverage is usually premised upon the existence of a signed release so the risk being insured is the enforceability of the release. These are but a few of the reasons that WGI, USAC and several other organizations require emancipation of those who have not attained the age of majority if they wish to compete. I see this as becoming more prevalent in the future to insure the stability of motorsports.One of the lawyers want to make me feel better and explain that you think a waiver signed by a 12 year old, even co-signed by a parent, will stand up in court? As in another thread, it's hard enough getting adults to take responsibility for their own actions and not play the blame game.
LOL. That just about rules you out of any SCCA event I've ever seen.
Does nobody remember when they started racing cars? I am certain that (intentional or not) everyone on this board did something that was stupid when they first started racing. That doesn't mean that it caused a lot of damage or anyone was hurt necessarily but we all make mistakes regardless of age and experience. It is racing and there is risk. Does it change how much money it costs to fix your car if someone has a failure and runs into you versus someone else just being stupid and running into you? The result is the same. I highly doubt that there will be many young kids (12-14) that are racing in cars unless they are already experienced in karting and trying to climb the professional ladder. Also, it is likely that those kids have far more experience racing than most adults when they first join SCCA. Why is it ok for an 'old guy' to be new and learn the ropes but not someone younger?
"because I'm an old guy and get off my lawn!"
Frankly I feel that Formula Promotions (f1600cs / f2kcs) and SCCA Pro are making a big mistake by not letting 14 year olds race with an attached resume. Have a drive coach keep an eye on them for a couple of events to make sure they arent over their heads and then off they go like the rest of us. the reason I say this is others are more then willing to let them race and while 'our' product may be better once they go else where they are never coming back.
No one would bat an eye at a 65-75 year old racing or even question their past experience. whose reflexes do you think are quicker ? Everyone isnt Dave W who has half a life of experience to fall back on and a 'been there seen this crash coming' kinda deal to make up for slightly slower hand speed ( Dave this is no dig at you , I've had the same conversation with my 74 tr old dad who would like to race again and would be in you boat minus the gold medals) The old guy gets a license and suddenly everyone is comfortable with him but scared of a 14 yr old who may have been racing wheel to wheel since he was 5.
I do think 12 is probably too young mentally but there are exceptions to every rule.
One of the things everyone talks about is 'no fear of a crash'. I'll be 41 in May and have been racing since I was 13 and I dont fear crashing. Does that make me a hazard ? Hardly. It just means that most likely I will be the last one to lift off unless it serves my purpose otherwise and will never allow myself to be pushed around on the race track.
I think alot of middle age racers use their own experiences of starting racing and 1) resent that their are familys out their that are willing to spend what it takes on their kids ( yeah I wish I had it that good as well) and 2) they dont realise that someof these kids are doing over 50 races a year and are even traveling to Europe for tougher competition then they get here.
Kevin Firlein Autosport,Inc.
Runoffs 1 Gold 3 Silver 3 bronze, 8 Divisional , 6 Regional Champs , 3x Drivers of the year awards
Follow the $ ....
A race Series that had 2-car fields last year wants into the game, so they expand the market .... now they've got Peggy Haas, Jackie Doty, Steve Cameron, Peter Frey, Bryan Herta coming to play.
It will be interesting to see if adult racers support the Series.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
IF the car counts were up... Wouldn't it be nice to have a Jr. & a Sr. Class ? 14 - 35 & 36 - infinity ? Speaking of car counts... My son & I are making the trip to COTA to watch the races & experience the on & off track excitement !
"An analog man living in a digital world"
In Rand's F1600 series, they do. They have a masters class for the older folks
Well said. Every time I have been wrecked, hit, or unexpectedly been forced of track in the last five years or maybe ten, it has not been by a young driver but instead by an older driver.Frankly I feel that Formula Promotions (f1600cs / f2kcs) and SCCA Pro are making a big mistake by not letting 14 year olds race with an attached resume. Have a drive coach keep an eye on them for a couple of events to make sure they arent over their heads and then off they go like the rest of us. the reason I say this is others are more then willing to let them race and while 'our' product may be better once they go else where they are never coming back.
No one would bat an eye at a 65-75 year old racing or even question their past experience. whose reflexes do you think are quicker ? Everyone isnt Dave W who has half a life of experience to fall back on and a 'been there seen this crash coming' kinda deal to make up for slightly slower hand speed ( Dave this is no dig at you , I've had the same conversation with my 74 tr old dad who would like to race again and would be in you boat minus the gold medals
I do think 12 is probably too young mentally but there are exceptions to every rule.
One of the things everyone talks about is 'no fear of a crash'. I'll be 41 in May and have been racing since I was 13 and I dont fear crashing. Does that make me a hazard ? Hardly. It just means that most likely I will be the last one to lift off unless it serves my purpose otherwise and will never allow myself to be pushed around on the race track.
I think alot of middle age racers use their own experiences of starting racing and 1) resent that their are familys out their that are willing to spend what it takes on their kids ( yeah I wish I had it that good as well) and 2) they dont realise that someof these kids are doing over 50 races a year and are even traveling to Europe for tougher competition then they get here.
This thread is quite amusing.
Get off my lawn said it best.
Jim
--Driving as one of the older guys in usf2000
Thx for the heads up Andy ! However, with the above comments, I may feel safer with kids
"An analog man living in a digital world"
First off on USF2000 the age limit is now 14 I believe & was previously 15. Not sure if you read this thread but it was about 12 year olds racing.
Steve Bamford
I am more okay with 12 year olds racing than the 60 pluses (minus some very quick exceptions). All of my most expensive crashes have been caused by older drivers, not younger drivers. I kart with young kids and have quite a bit of trust in them. I have three young kids and don't have much issue with a very experienced 12 over an inexperienced adult. Lots of the very talented kids I have driven with are running 40+ weekends a year. Lots more seat time than I get.
I am not going to argue that once they have the seat time they are not an issue to run with. I have however been put off the road by some young drivers who have lots of karting seat time but learning open wheel for the first time.
As I said before often these kids families have funds available to do extensive testing. I would not have an issue on test days but don't want to race with 12 year olds.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 02.06.13 at 5:16 PM.
Steve Bamford
I know karts are dangerous too, but at what age is the young person capable of assuming the physical risk? I guess the parents can ok them to take the risk at 12.
Hate to say it, but what happens when a 12 year old is killed while driving a FF ? I, as an adult would have a hard time living with it, at fault if I was involved in any way, be it on the track involved in the incident, or the one that signed the child into the event via the waiver. There are some 12 year olds that are mature enough to go fight in the Marines, but the rules are 18 anyway. Just saying...
Every race car driver should be of legal age. You should be able to punch someone in the side of the head if needed and only be charged with regular assault. The last thing you want is to be charged with assault of a minor, child abuse or some crazy crap like that.
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You know there are specific laws against elderly abuse too
Every race car driver should be of legal age. You should be able to punch someone in the side of the head if needed and only be charged with regular assault. The last thing you want is to be charged with assault of a minor, child abuse or some crazy crap like that.
That's the best and only real argument I've seen so far. Hard to argue against.
Looks like we need some of the resident lawyers in here to explain the difference between assault and battery to you guys.
Everyone is an adult as long as the helmet is still on. I'm pretty sure that's a rule.
I like fights after the racing... Especially when the other guy takes off his helmt.. I Always leave mine on
"An analog man living in a digital world"
...and the thread has just jumped the shark.
aaron
Nothing gets by you Josh.
Age Requirement
When you young drivers were first suggested I also had some questions and apprehension. I reviewed the issues with our insurance company here at Buttonwillow Raceway and we worked out conditions and guidelines. We have had young drivers testing here for the past several years so I have had many chances to observe. The same with sport bike riders as young as eleven and the mini sport bike riders on our kart track way younger. I also ride a 1,000 cc sport bike and it is never good when a tiny little kid passes you in the turns with a 125. Humbling.
With so many years of evidence accumulated I can say the drivers we have approved have done an outstanding job. Some names that have tested and raced with us range in age from thirteen to fifteen include JR Hildebrand, Conner Ford, Joel Miller, Charlie Kimball, Wade Van Heusen and Nickie Freitag. Some of those drivers raced with us as young as thirteen which is the age we will see beginning the race year for 2013. Many started testing at twelve.
The good part is I can never even recall a bent wing or a replaced suspension piece for those youngest drivers. I cannot say the same for the older and more experienced drivers. I am one of the older drivers and have zero apprehension racing with the kids.
As for insurance. We normally are included in the insurance of the club where we buy a run group. In a few small ways the NASA insurance package is superior to the excellent SCCA package and has the same $ limits and coverage. When with NASA and the other host clubs we have their insurance. On the rare occasion when we need to bring our own I purchase it through Buttonwillow Raceway and we can buy whatever. It only takes money.
Les Phillips
HA
Every race car driver should be of legal age. You should be able to punch someone in the side of the head if needed and only be charged with regular assault. The last thing you want is to be charged with assault of a minor, child abuse or some crazy crap like that.
Hopefully if she gets out of the car, she doesn't punch like a girl..
I don't see what the problem is. I've seen more wrecks and problems in club racing thanks to older guys who want to get into racing and don't know how to ease into it and learn how to correctly be apart of the sport. Age is only a number especially if both people are aware of the dangers involved in the sport.
Meg
The narrow mindedness is a bit disappointing. This is a major part of the reason young people have less interest in club racing each year. Being young is treated as being "inept" or almost "unwanted" at times. Yet, no one seems to complain when a rich older gentlemen goes on track and creates a liability.
The capable youngsters of this sport deserve a chance to compete side by side with everyone else. Everyone has to pass a "Driver's School" to be eligible for an SCCA license. If a 12 year old kid can pass a driver's school then why can't he/she race? The stereotype that all kids are "fearless" is a bit ridiculous. Theres plenty of older racers that I have PERSONALLY seen make very poor choices on the racetrack. But no one says anything. They just accept it and move on. There are plenty of kids out there that can be just as heads up and intelligent as the next "of age" racer.
How would the older generation feel if there was a Maximum Age Limit of, say, 50 years old? After 50 it can be argued that the human body's ability to perform in a racing situation starts to diminish. I bet there would be quite a few "butt hurt" people out there complaining that it isn't fair to throw a blanket rule over a certain age demographic. But, alas, isn't that what we are doing now? Pot calling the kettle black much? Seems to be...
When it comes to the issue of safety, that point is quite mute as well. I knew at the age of 15-16 that I, and I alone, was putting my life at risk anytime I strapped into the car. At 16 I saw a grown man lose his life right in front of me on track. HE as well as anyone else knew the dangers of racing. If a 12 year old accepts the danger as well as his parents, then there is no reason to limit his acces to a car.
I think Bryan Herta has a great thing going for the young racers of "tomorrow". More power to him. He has my support all the way. I'll let my arguments marinate for those reading this thread.
Alex Ardoin
As far as risk management and avoidance.. You guys probably don't remember the crap kids get into. I've seen far more and worse injuries from skateboarding and BMX than racing. All things considered, racing is far safer than most "extreme" sports you wouldn't bat an eyelid at a 12 year old participating in.
Age Debate and the new Pacific F1600
I say thanks to Les Phillips for bringing grassroots racing back to life the west coast and for helping to revice the lost art of training racers.
In the seasons I worked at Jim Russell at Sears Point 1998-2009 I saw roughly 100 race weekends in the Formula Russell cars (Mazdas)- 4-5 groups of 20 cars - and thousands of people come in to do 1/2 day, three day in FF and FMitz, three day in Mazdas. We built a kart track too.
At one point we had 63 karts, 44 race cars and highway survival training all going on simultaneously.
I trained 400+ Mechanics and they drove too.
I have seen a lot of crap happen at Sears. We killed noone and only had one helipcopter ride that I recall.
In all that time and all those laps we had one and had only one constant - Racers, young and old.
They were young ( Scott Speed, Alex Rossi and other kids) and older (Bud Moller, John Schafer, Jim Graber and other masters).
They competed, they laughed, they flipped each other off then slapped each other on the back.
They raised each others game, old guys ate better and drank a little less Sonoma Wine and the kids showed respect for the expeirence around them.
We were family.
Les and Steve and Bobby and Brian and Peggy and Jackie have the same heart as Jim Russell himself : Race car drivers are raised not born and its incumbent upon us to teach.
Words I heard in that time that may make you want to come compete in Pacific F1600:
" Yous guys use your heads, or I'll put you in the gaaaarage", Jacques Couture. ( Les will park your ass if you are a dousche bag. )
" Just drive it.", Mark Wolocatiuk ( nuf said )
" Maybe its not the car", Carroll Smith ( ha ha I sure miss that guy )
Come out and race gentlemen it will do you a lot of good.
Awwright, I'm gettn' a shifter cart, you fricking little twerps are history, 60's are the new twelve's...................
Worst car medallion/logo -- Toyota....fricking stick figure wearing a sombrero, I know its supposed to be global, orbital, atomic but it's a fricking stick figure with a sombrero!! better is flying wings for Chrysler....did they swipe that from Aston Martin???
I would much rather have my 13 year old grandson in a car than a kart. Any day, any track. If it was on the east coast, i'd be looking into it.
As i said in post #2, i hope Bryan is successful.
Its just that Rand, nor I, want to be the one in the event of a serious accident to have to go tell the parents of a 12 year old. YMMV
Was thinking the same Mike/Purp, can you imagine a fast kart guy getting in our formula cars, full protective caging, like a MacMansion in here, I can hear an echo, Helloooo, Helloooo, let er' rip I would think,............ but apparently they are thoughtful and reserved, "Ski Under Control" the sign sez at the top of the hill!!! Well Not!!- Well Maybe!!- Well definately!!, we have summed from the thread!!!!
Last edited by Modo; 02.08.13 at 5:19 PM.
hey Frog, you think it'll be easier telling the parents of a 16 yr old ? you seem to have no problem with that based on the current age rules.
Kevin Firlein Autosport,Inc.
Like i said Kevin, YMMV.
At least with the 16 year olds in our Series, when Rand walks up to Momma with the news, he can say we have $1,000,000 of insurance to put her son/daughter back together. Some organizations have far less.
Last edited by Purple Frog; 02.08.13 at 2:42 PM.
...
Like i said Kevin, YMMV.
At least with the 16 year olds in our Series, when Rand walks up to Momma with the news, he can say we have $1,000,000 of insurance to put her son/daughter back together. Some organizations have far less.
My Mom would've fainted before you could've got to that part...
Hope the other Mom's can handle it!
I think racing moms can be tough. I know when I broke my femur from wrecking and flipping in a kart with M McDowell that my mother was the first one to my side....beat my father in an all out sprint probably a quarter of a mile away!
I know that we are talking about a more serious accident than a broken leg but I still think that racing moms are a different breed.
my mom said she was going to spread my ashes on the pit straight at WG, enthusiast, yea!! I was a better driver than that I think!!!
Race Moms and Dads can be tough. I was at the California State Karting Championships at Santa Maria Airport years ago when a little Buddy Rice's Mom fell in the paddock and apparently broke her arm. They had just given the pre-grid call to Buddy's group. Pop's told her to suck it up and get in the van, they'd go to the hospital after Buddy's race and tech! She did and Buddy went on to race. Less than 15 years later he's getting his likeness put on the Borg-Warner trophy. I wonder if Mom ever forgave them?
All race moms are not alike. Janice was holding hands with a very nervous mom at sebring. Turned out OK... Just saying...
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