Age requirment

[Brian Graham]

Not sure if I read it right, according to the Herta PR1 release, but the series allows 12 year olds? Is that correct? What sanctioning body is the serier run under? Not a critisism but just very curious.

Brian.

[Purple Frog]

During the PRI show Bryan asked me if we would let 12 yr olds (his son) into the F1600CS. His son had extensive Barber experience. I checked with the owners and Tom Cambell at SCCA pro and then answered Bryan that we would not.

So, if you can't get others to change their ways, just go and create your own deal. More power to him. From karting families i have interviewed, Byran may get a lot of interest. A lot of karting parents are looking for car venues for their 12+ year olds. He may have good fields from the get go.

Shucks, they are just karts with larger engines...

But, interestingly, the European FF series raised their minimum age this year.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

It's a case by case deal with drivers under 16.
The series is owned by Buttonwillow Raceway and is run by track manager Les Phillips.

[Michael Rand]

To add to what Mike Eakin said, Les Phillips and his Pacific F2000 and the equivalent F1600 series are running under essentially no sanction and buy their participant accident insurance from whomever they are running with. Hence fewer restricrtions.
I must admit that I am personally surprised at 12 year olds being acceptable. IndyCar and USF2000 have previously announced they will accept 14 year olds.
But to repeat what Mike said, our SCCA Pro Racing Sanction that includes the $1million per individual per event participant accident per-incident medical insurance does not allow for anyone under 15.
It is the racers job to know what insurance conditions he/she is competing under, and remember test days are always different from race weekends.

[Steve Bamford]

I wouldn't want to be on the track racing with kids that young regardless of their experience. How do you go home & tell your firends you were beaten by a 12 year old?

[ric baribeault]

i get beat karting every other weekend now by a 13 year old.........girl

[Daryl DeArman]

I wouldn't want to be on the track racing with kids that young regardless of their experience. How do you go home & tell your firends you were beaten by a 12 year old?

Is that any worse than getting beat by a 75 year old?

Yes, I know all the parts of the brain that haven't fully formed, the skewed risk v. reward calculator, etc. However, being around young athletes in karting, motorcross, volleyball and baseball, with lots of practice these young kids can be very good and even have more experience than many SCCA participants. Heck, I did more racing in 2 years of karting than some SCCA National License holders' get in 15 years.

[a. pettipas]

Yes, I know all the parts of the brain that haven't fully formed...

I've raced with a few grown men who are still waiting on this, probably in vain... and I should add they are not f2KCS competitors.

[Steve Bamford]

Is that any worse than getting beat by a 75 year old?

Yes, I know all the parts of the brain that haven't fully formed, the skewed risk v. reward calculator, etc. However, being around young athletes in karting, motorcross, volleyball and baseball, with lots of practice these young kids can be very good and even have more experience than many SCCA participants. Heck, I did more racing in 2 years of karting than some SCCA National License holders' get in 15 years.

Lots of the kids are good, if not some of them great! I still will prefer to race with some older individuals if I have the choice. I just said what "I" would prefer. I personally would not race in an event with a 12 year old but others are welcome to do whatever they wish.

[sauce_racer]

i get beat karting every other weekend now by a 13 year old.........girl

My Dad felt that pain once....or twice..


Meg

[AlanVDW]

Watkins Glen will not allow anyone under 18 to compete or have access to any "hot" area.

[Purple Frog]

I don't think the west coast series has to worry about WGI requirements.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

The youngsters who race that are under 16 have to prove they can drive and have a ton of karting experience before they are let in. If you speak with the older guys who have run in the series, I don't think you'll be able to find one who has had issues with the young kids.

My experience has been if a 13 year old can do well at a high level of karting, and they prove during private testing they can handle a car, then why not let them in?

Maybe if we had issues with past young drivers I'd have a different opinion.

[warpspeed]

well lets see 12 years old to race a car ,heck why not let not drive the race hauler to the track and gwhiz we need beer at the track send him in for a case or two oh and we may need someextra security at the track , tell him to bring a gun with him .funny not by a long shot we put guide lines in to protect the general public,sure there are kids that are capable , and when they are old enough they will get there chance nuff said!

[racerdad2]

I drove my first car, solo, at age nine. Well, not really solo, my buddy Ralph was with me. He was six. Minnesota farm country. Ma said Pa needed someone to bring him his lunch on the neighbors farm and we were the only one's home. Of course, I volunteered ! Afterall, Ralph couldn't reach the pedals nor see over the dash it was about a five mile drive down gravel roads & across a narrow bridge over the Crow River. It was a big sedan with oysh button auto. The hard part was getting the damned garage door open ! Pa was just glad to see his lunch arriving in the corner of the field he was plowing ! I kept waiting for Pa to say something about me driving his car, but, he was too busy eating lunch & in a hurry to get that plowing done to worry about us I got her up to 40 + on the way home !

My twelve year old was beating many senior karters last year in his Rotax kart and a friend of mine's ten year old was even quicker in it, when I let him race it ! Light weight, lightning quick reflexes, no fear & great situational awareness !!! Fun to watch

[Ed Erlandson]

my next adventure is COTA, looking forward to it.

then,
Most likely me vs the kid, looking forward to it.

Ed

[racerdad2]

[Modo]

may consider the strength issue over 30 minutes, having 1000 lbs show up at your wrists is a little different then 60-80 lbs or whatever a kart is, show up at your wrists, would have to consider how many laps or how long this Barber or west coast deal was with the 1000lb car to better judge....... and of course legal and moral liability, "you hurt my son" just thoughts...............

def- pounds at wrists....figure of speech, the pounds of the car the wrists will be controlling.....the math pounds will be much less.....or....we will all be doing deer antler stuff!!!

[iamuwere]

I was stronger at 13 or so than I am now. Then I was lifting daily and having two workouts a day. I don't think strength or stamina is a problem at that age.

[Steve Davis]

... Light weight, lightning quick reflexes, no fear & great situational awareness !!! Fun to watch

this is the part that scares the poo out of me. Kids with this level of experience HAVE to come from a background of $$MONEY$$. When they tear something up, they don't have to pay for it or fix it themselves - and I've seen that attitude on the track with some of the youngsters. SO FAR, I have NOT seen them crash anyone else out, but I have seen cases where an older driver made the decision to NOT allow the impending crash to happen.

If you end up racing with one of these kids, be prepared to make your decision and KNOW what theirs will be.

If Herta puts together a Pro Series in "big cars" for 12 year olds, it will be VERY interesting to see how they all handle themselves when EVERYONE is just like they are .... I dare say that crashing an F2000 will have significantly greater ramifications than crashing a kart - there's a LOT more mass involved.

Steve, FV80

[formulasuper]

this is the part that scares the poo out of me. Kids with this level of experience HAVE to come from a background of $$MONEY$$. When they tear something up, they don't have to pay for it or fix it themselves - and I've seen that attitude on the track with some of the youngsters. SO FAR, I have NOT seen them crash anyone else out, but I have seen cases where an older driver made the decision to NOT allow the impending crash to happen.

If you end up racing with one of these kids, be prepared to make your decision and KNOW what theirs will be.

If Herta puts together a Pro Series in "big cars" for 12 year olds, it will be VERY interesting to see how they all handle themselves when EVERYONE is just like they are .... I dare say that crashing an F2000 will have significantly greater ramifications than crashing a kart - there's a LOT more mass involved.

Steve, FV80

Exactly what I was getting ready to post.

[racerdad2]

Again, its the individual. I've been racing in the Masters Class if Karting. It began as a 50+ series. I'm thinking, older, wiser... No way ! The green flag drops & its mayhem ! These guys are a bunch of idiots we had to stop rolling starts because if the carnage into turn one, EVERY TIME the youngsters all have fat better racing, close, assertive (not aggressive) great racing. Of course, there are always exceptions to every rule There are many kids of ALL ages that should not be allowed on the track....I know many SEVEN year olds with better driving skills & proper overtaking decision making than many of my so-called Masters I know we don't have many NAPCAR fans here. These kids start racing late models & Sprint cars at 14. Fendered are obviously safer. Open wheeled Sprint cars arent safe, even alone on the track

[Modo]

14 better, almost full sprout! age 12 - 110 lb football team (that's for 5-10 5-11 finish at 15) course the new spuds are Mac-ed out so little more growth

Sounds good to go guys down below, special cases work, however if something happens, that sanctioning body and the sport may get a hard look, frankly, I like the Glen's approach, participant is legal age to sign....... course dangerous permission sports (parent signs) are a dime a dozen, , especially in the winter, so what do I know.......good luck guys

[DFR Dave Freitas]

I don't see much difference between a kid who doesn't do his own work and a rich banker who doesn't know where the gas goes in his car.

I have run plenty of older guys who could care less if they crashed and could care less who they crashed into.

Just comes down to the individual, like has been said before, and that's why the kids are approved only on a case by case basis.

[alangbaker]

During the PRI show Bryan asked me if we would let 12 yr olds (his son) into the F1600CS. His son had extensive Barber experience. I checked with the owners and Tom Cambell at SCCA pro and then answered Bryan that we would not.

So, if you can't get others to change their ways, just go and create your own deal. More power to him. From karting families i have interviewed, Byran may get a lot of interest. A lot of karting parents are looking for car venues for their 12+ year olds. He may have good fields from the get go.

Shucks, they are just karts with larger engines...

But, interestingly, the European FF series raised their minimum age this year.

My two cents:

I happen to have been on track with that particular 12 year old, and having talked to him as well between sessions at my Skip Barber 2-day at Laguna Seca, I'd have no problem being on a race track with him.

[racerdad2]

We regularly pull 2.5 g's in karting thru sticky turns, with peaks well past 3. Karting is much harder than FF. I Cracked my ribs in my first 3 seasons. My son has had 3 serious shunts, including a head on into a rookie driver than spun in two karts in front of him. She spun 180 & came to a dead stop in the middle of the track. My boy was directly behind the other kart & pulled out to make the pass & there she was.... Front bumper, knerf bars all came into the pedals. Helmet, Neck brace, Chest protector, Rib vest, Proper seat & the energy absorbing front pieces save him as he nearly endo'd over her. After being cleared by EMT, He raced the next heat. Not to mention the many open wheel 'contacts' we both have had. Karting teaches you great respect for open wheel racing. BTW, the flight they the air is amazingly smooth & comfy ! The landings, not so much...

[alangbaker]

We regularly pull 2.5 g's in karting thru sticky turns, with peaks well past 3. Karting is much harder than FF. I Cracked my ribs in my first 3 seasons. My son has had 3 serious shunts, including a head on into a rookie driver than spun in two karts in front of him. She spun 180 & came to a dead stop in the middle of the track. My boy was directly behind the other kart & pulled out to make the pass & there she was.... Front bumper, knerf bars all came into the pedals. Helmet, Neck brace, Chest protector, Rib vest, Proper seat & the energy absorbing front pieces save him as he nearly endo'd over her. After being cleared by EMT, He raced the next heat. Not to mention the many open wheel 'contacts' we both have had. Karting teaches you great respect for open wheel racing. BTW, the flight they the air is amazingly smooth & comfy ! The landings, not so much...

One of the instructors at Skip Barber, Paul Brand, said something like that:

"Keep both feet in until it's stopped, not silent... ...because in the air is silent. Ask me how I know!"

[Cameron Racing]

Scott Dixon won his first NZ Championship in a FV at age 13. NZ Motorsports allows drivers at 12 to have a Junior license and race nationally. Karters at age 13 often have 5 yrs racing experience and are more than capable of driving race cars with control and skill.

[problemchild]

Putting your pre-teen to mid-teen child in a professional race car Series is no different than putting your toddler in a beauty pageant. Considering the danger element, it's probably worse. Let kids be kids!

[Daryl DeArman]

Honey BooBoo racing? Really?

How are kids supposed to get good enough and experienced enough to enter upper levels of the sport at 18-21 years of age if they can't race serious race cars for at least a handful of seasons prior?

If you are a 30year-old+ that doesn't want to race against young kids, don't enter in a series that allows them. If you are in that age bracket racing in a pro series, why? Clearly you aren't going to race F1 this lifetime, so if you are entering to race against the best, then why exclude somebody that may be faster than you?

[problemchild]

Honey BooBoo racing? Really?

How are kids supposed to get good enough and experienced enough to enter upper levels of the sport at 18-21 years of age if they can't race serious race cars for at least a handful of seasons prior?

?

Sorry. I don't care.

As a parent, I want my 12 year kid playing on his skate-board or bicycle with his neighborhood friends, trying to avoid his chores, and dreaming about driving race cars.

As an adult recreational racer, I want your 12 year kid playing on his skate-board or bicycle with his neighborhood friends, trying to avoid his chores, and dreaming about driving race cars.

[warpspeed]

thats funny how are kids suppose to get experience hello there called go karts

[Daryl DeArman]

Hello I said "serious race cars for at least a handful of seasons"

Greg, if you want your kid playing on his skateboard, that's fine. What you want for my kid is irrelevant...

[formulasuper]

Not saying they don't have years of racing experience & skill by that age, it's the "no fear" part that worries us.

[mike g.]

Stronger, better, whatever - I won't race with anyone who doesn't feel a hit to their checkbook when they hit me.

[racerdad2]

Just a little humor... I'd rather race with kids with no fear than men with no sense BTW... We start karting at age five... It's amazing how fast the natural racers are at that age... By 7 or 8, they are seasoned racers. My 12 yr old son raced in our ' outlaw' class against guys 19 to 50 I'm proud of his race craft... Honestly, he's really good, like his dad. But neither of us are truly great racers.... Those fortunate few who have the genetics, natural talent & the drive to win... We race for the joy of racing ! We win once in awhile, but have a blast every time we race, even when we blow engines, crash hard, loose big... After all, a bad day racing beats a good day working

[Steve Bamford]

There is no place for a 12 year old in club racing, that is why the rules are written that way thankfully. What private racing series do is their own choice.

I am sure there are 12 years that can handle driving such as Herta's son however that doesn't make it the right thing to do. I know it is a case by case basis but there are plenty of ways for him to get seat time other then racing...they have the resources to do private testing as many others do too.

Some of you who say kids need the experience should look at the F1 3 time champ & look at his upbringing in racing. I would find it hard to argue with his success. Vettel did a full year of open wheel testing before he was of age to enter his first race which I believe the age cut off was 14 or 15. I am sure someone else can chime in here with definitive info as to his age.

Let kids test & grow at a resonable pace. Lots of great karting for them out there to develop their skills. Seemed to work for a young German & many before him.

Private series are open to do whatever they wish but that doesn't make it right, but that is just my 2 cents.

Thankfully I have a few different series that I can race in that the only 12 year olds I will see are riding their skate boards in the paddock & not actually see them driving on the track.

[racerdad2]

Well said Steve ! Truth is, I'd never let my 12 yr old even in a Formula car, let alone race it. I hope to have the opportunity to give him some private seat time, with a throttle stop IF he does well, I MIGHT let him race at 15 or 16. I sincerely hope the private series does well & there are no serious incidents. Racing is inherently dangerous. Sadly, thankfully rarely, children have been lost in karting... As safe as we try to make all forms of racing, the likelihood of serious injuries & fatalities are small, yet ever present. Personally, A minimum age of 15 in club racing suits me. Perhaps an exceptional 14 year old..... BTW, "Safe is Fast" is a great website for kids of all ages

[John LaRue]

But for the money side of matters the cars are likely much safer than the karts, they are certainly less physically demanding. The cars do require more patience in my opinion as they they do not react or respond as abruptly. In the end intelligence and judgment is not necessarily a given as we age.

The times they are a changing and this can be seen across many activities, not just motorsports. Participants are younger and more money is being brought to the table. How about paying $15,000 for a spec sealed Rotax engine which can be purchased new out of the box for about 1/5 of that? Semi haulers with a dedicated crew and tuner for one racer rolling up at the local kart track a week or more before the event for testing. Kids who are flown in private jets to karting events across the globe; it is the new reality folks.

There is the way we would like the sport and club to be which isn't a bad thing and then there is the new reality in which youth and big money play a major role. As these two factions grow further and further apart each will suffer for different reasons. Oh the day of everyone playing in the same sandbox.

[Modo]

The Answer!!! Boarding school in New Zealand for the 12 year old and a fully funded FV effort that can pick him up Friday afternoon's.......call it 'The Dixon Experience'.........heck, why would you want to stay in this country if you want to be a Road Racer, ah er European Racer......... why not Alabama/NC for round-de-round and de bucks!! Course Bryan is thinking Indy and I'm sure the '500'.....Dan Sully in England, Emo in England, Cheever in Italy but practically from Italy, etc.......didn't Niki trash his first three FV's and almost quit??

Sri, perhaps bad manners from my isolated pulpit, don't know what anyone is thinking, generally, this thread is discussing venues for a successful young lad, carry on!!