How to start the road to formula mazda

[nskyline34]

Hey guys, Just looking for some guidance and direction. I've finally graduated and I'm ready to start racing. I have aspirations to get to star mazda or into GT2. I know I need to start low so that's why I'm here. I'm not 100% sure what the path is to get there for either (i know they are a little different). I have a reasonable racing background for someone who's only 23 and has been going to school full time. I've raced 125 shifters for a few year, motocross for 20, have been involved with off road baja racing and even on a land speed record team. Now that I can afford it I'm ready to get serious about reaching my dream of star mazda.

I am hoping that someone on here can give me the correct progression there? or a basic progression since there is no one true path. This is what I'm thinking:

This year 2013: Go to a racing school and get a couple track days in/autocross sessions (going to keep it low key because my gf and I are buying a house around june/july time). And acquire the basics of the racing gear.

2014: Go to Portland raceway and take their 3 day racing school and get my competition license. Start getting into spec miata racing just by renting. go to ~4 miata races and get some private lessons (uncle is a racing instructor) a couple times. During this year I will also acquire a race car trailer too and the rest of my gear, Hans, suit, etc.

2015: I was thinking about either going and buying a formula ford or a T1/ST2 corvette or something of the like to get going faster. again, continuing the lessons on open track days and then also racing in the PNW as much as possible.

2016: Continue above.

Is this the correct start to the progression? should I even consider spec miata or just right to formula ford or ST2/T1 'vette?? Just feeling lost. I was thinking spec miata because it will teach to go fast with little power and how to best carry momentum.
Also in how do you get sponsorships in the auto racing world. I know the motocross world in and out but this is new to me? What are the driver incentives typically??
Can you guys kinda help me with how this works please and what the progression is for either type of racing???

And lastly what form is easier to get into/has more available races in the PNW?

[glenn cooper]

Do NOT buy a house, get a HANS before you get in a car, stick to open wheelers, no need for any tin top grief, start w/ a Club Formula Ford that can be run at about ANY weekend that has an open wheel run group NOT combined w/ sedans, learn the basics, step up to a winged Jr Formula of some type, then Star Mazda - SIMPLE!

You're welcome.

[provamo]

i am the LAST person to be giving advice but i recommend figuring out a way to get another identity to pay your way through a professional school first

NEVER buy a car......... focus entirely on obtaining funds through self promotion ..network with professionals.....move to Indianapolis or Charlotte-town

my too sense

just saying

[racerdad2]

It really comes down to money. Formula Ford to start. Then step up to a winged car. Then, Star Mazda. If you can get sponsor $$$, fantastic ! It takes hundreds of thousands of dollars to run with the top series. So, come up with a better mousetrap, make a gazzillion $$$ & race whatever you want or... Find those sponsorship $$$ whatever happens, remember to enjoy the journey

[nskyline34]

Thanks guys for your help. So basically what I'm hearing is I need to acquire racing gear and just start by taking a couple 3 day professional racing schools. I'm thinking I'll take one normal car racing school for the basics and then take a 3 day skip barber class in a formula car. I will try and accomplish this over the summer and before Sept of '14. Over that winter I should by something like a formula ford or formula f1600 (or formula "f" I guess they are called). Race that for a while (until I'm very proficient and confident with driving and set up) then step to formula star mazda and race in the formula challenge series. Is this correct?

I live in the seattle wa area, I can drive to NorCal, OR, or ID to go racing. which form of racign is the most prominent in my area when it comes to formula cars with no aero?

What are the reasons for NOT buying a car and only renting? I'm open to it, I would just like to hear the pro's and con's of each.

Also how do I get someone else to pay for these professional driving schools? what were you thinking? I need to get racing first before I can do that dont I?

What kind of formula ford should I buy? chassis wise? what are the good ones, what are the ones to avoid and what should I specifially look for when buying?

Thanks so much for the help fellas!

[S Lathrop]

I will give you advise based on my years as an engineer in Indy Lights I do have several wins both with the Lola and Dallara versions of the Indy Lights. I also drove for 15 years.

FF is a great class to start, especially with your carting experience.

Stay in FF until you are a winner of races and championships. Master the skills of car setup. Learn to do your own chassis setups and even learn to build your shocks. Learn what works and what does not. Learn to feel the changes. Most of the advise you will get will be worth what you pay for it. In time you will know what works.

Always remember that a fast setup is easy to drive fast and the key to winning is the fast setup. You might make a so setup fast for one lap but not a whole race. The old men beat you more through superior knowledge and superior setups. A car has to be setup correctly to do a fast lap. If the car is not right, no amount of fussing with driving technique will make the car go really fast.

Next move to FC or FB. And master that class. Go where the competition is toughest. FB/F1000 is a great class but only if you are in a super tough field where you are really exploring the limits of the formula and yourself. Otherwise, FC is a better bet. FB is great because it is really fast and very tough to drive fast.

If you aren't winning don't change classes. Stay where you are until you are a winner. You only advance when you are running at the front of a class. Better to stay where you have the money to win. It is also much cheaper to upgrade in a class than move to another class. Master FF and the wings are easy to add to your skill set.

When you go to something like Star Mazda, a junior level spec classes, you will not advance you setup skills as much as you need to to be successful in the top levels of racing. The highly visible classes make a good stepping stone but not if you expect to advance you driving and setup skills. Plan on no more than one year and go when you can win. Otherwise it is a big waste of money. Too many kids arrive at Indy Lights and are not skilled enough at setups to consistently compete at the top of that level.

Daryl's comments below are good.

[Daryl DeArman]

My 2 cents. With karting experience, especially shifter karts...don't bother with the racing schools.

As to renting vs. buying---it costs more in the short term to buy, more in the long term to rent.

Don't race something you can't afford to wad up in a ball.

[TimH]

A car has to be setup correctly to do a fast lap. If the car is not right, no amount of fussing with driving technique will make the car go really fast.

Not disagreeing with all the other good advice, but would emphasize that the setup has to be right FOR YOU. Only by learning what works and what doesn't will you come to know how to adapt the car to your personal strengths and weaknesses. FF may be the best place to start that process. A little time in sedans with an instructor in the other seat would be valuable, but I wouldn't devote whole seasons to it.

All in all, though, you seem to have the right basic ideas.

[nskyline34]

Ok thanks for your input. I'm a part time fabricator and hot rod builder so fixing stuff wont be too tough. I know, racing is racing.

Since its been 2-3 years since I've raced karts I'm thinking about buying another 125 shifter and racing that while also going to those racing schools until I can get into a formula ford. (about a 2 years before I buy, but about 1 year before I rent one). basically I'll be doing karts, 1-2 3 days racing schools and a couple formula ford races in a rental until winter of 2014/2015 and then in that off-season I'll buy a formula ford F1600 or F2000 depending on my skill level. Does this sound like a good idea?

[gcoffin]

I think it was a John Prine who wrote "there is a hole in Daddy's arm where all the money goes". Just replace hole with car and arm with garage and you have it. Not to mention the time commitment.

So as some others have said do not bother with the tin tops if single seat open wheelers are where you want to go. This includes any school as well. Forget the house, they can sometimes cost more than racing!

I would add a couple of trips to both SCCA and ICSCC races at Pacific Raceways during 2013 to your list of things to do. Put on a white shirt and work some corners. It will become pretty clear what cars are being raced and if there is a suitable measuring stick available. If there is any doubt the corner workers can tell you.

Other sage advise is don't race in a class you cannot afford to win, skill doesn't count for much if your tires are 2 years old with 20 heat cycles.

Most of the open wheel racing in the PNW is ICSCC sanctioned. Club Ford provides the closest racing. FC is a growing class, and there are a few FM's running. All three of these classes have cars and drivers that are consistantly quick. There are a couple of FM's that are for rent.

Finally make sure the family is on board.......race car driving is a very selfish thing.

Feel free to PM me if you want cost estimates or contacts in the Formula Car world here in the PNW

[Speed Sport Engineering]

It doesn't really matter what you drive. What matters is how much money you make. Driving skill isn't going to get you into Formula Mazda. You could race one tomorrow if you had the funding.

The advice I wish someone gave me when I was starting out - Figure out how to make money first, then figure out how to go racing.

[TimH]

Does this sound like a good idea?

Short answer: Yes.

If I'd had the money and time back then that's the way I would have done it.

+1 on having the family (especially the CFO) on board.

[nskyline34]

Again guys awesome input. I think I need to clarify a couple things though. For me, progressing past formula mazda's sounds awesome, however as of right now there is no real desire too. I turn to racing to alleviate the pressure of life whether it be in the garage or in the car on the track. My motocross career progressed to a place where when I wasnt racing I was meeting with sponsors and I noticed that although I did better on the track, It was more stressful. So for right now I just want to get into a star car and i just want to be able to drive them at their limits. whether that be from pole position, the back of the pack, or a track day.

Secondly, if I want the CFO on board we're gonna get a house. lol and I need a garage to keep all of my toys, bikes, cars, race cars, etc.

and third, I already have begun increasing my income. (did a couple years ago)

Once again the info you guys are giving is exactly what I need(ed) to hear. I commend all of you for not giving smart a** answers either. I really appreciate it. I also have already begun searching for races at pacific or portland to put on the calendar as well to just go watch.

Also I'm well aware of the fact that when you go out onto a track of any kind, 2 seconds can pass and all of your equipment can potentially be garbage... but luckily I love the fix up as much as racing.

Can some one email me an ad/classifieds link or two for a formula ford or what you would recommend for a starter car. I dont 100% know what I'm REALLY looking for the nitty-gritty details like chassis companies, shock style and set ups, etc.

And would i'm thinking it will be a good idea in addition to take the racing schools and also get back into karting THIS year too. I know that also karting can keep me in practice for the big cars. Thinking that may be a good idea and it will also give me something to do while I'm getting funds together to buy a car.

Thanks again guys and keep it coming!!

[Josh Pitt]

going to keep it low key because my gf and I are buying a house around june/july time).

cant give you any advice on racing; I can give you some REALLY good advice about life.

DO NOT buy a house together. buy it alone, as a single guy who is the only owner, do not buy it with a person you are dating if you want to have any decent financial future.

this way when she goes, you dont lose 1/2 your investment.

BTW..........same goes for buying race cars.

your welcome in advance

[Paddy O'Brien]

Just to be contrary, I would not waste my time or money on a Formula Ford if you have been racing 125cc shifter karts competitively. If shifter karting is as popular in your area as it is in the central US then that will give you better competition at cheaper cost. A FF will feel like a stone to a good shifter pilot, and a Pro Fmazda a little sluggish too. The only thing a karter needs to expereience is the increased weight and momentum of a car, skip barber or some FE rentals should do that. Then buy your Mazda. I am a big believer in only buying racecars that you intend to keep for a while.

[rickb99]

.......I live in the seattle wa area, I can drive to NorCal, OR, or ID to go racing. which form of racign is the most prominent in my area when it comes to formula cars with no aero? ......

For the BEST racing in the Seattle area you need to get involved with ICSCC racing (International Conference of Sports Car Clubs). Its a 5 member club sanctioning body the puts on 14 to 16 races per year at Pacific Raceway, Portland International Raceway, Spokane Raceway, Mission (in Canada), and The Ridge in Sumner.

If you're interested in trying Enduros, they have several a year and some guys go to Thunderhill for the 26 hour races. Often have available seats.

They have TOP NOTCH FF drivers and good fields at every race plus a growing FC contingency. Neither ICSCC nor SCCA have strong Star Mazda racers.

I would also suggest that with your background you'd have no trouble starting out in an older FC car which, right now are about the BEST BUY's in the race car field.

If in your future you decide to move up to FB (most excellent class) you'll be in the midst of some of the BEST FB drivers in the country and, they have a little mini west coast pro series that's part of the SCCA Nationals race programs.

ICSCC competition licensing is set up to be reasonably easy and fun and SCCA recognizes ICSCC licenses for their regional races.

For more info study these two sites:

The Organization:
http://www.icscc.com/

Being in Seattle you'd join IRDC (International Race Drivers Club)
http://www.irdc-racing.com/irdc_home.htm

Yes, we do have members who race in Europe every summer and other parts of the world such as the Australian Historics Clubs.

SCHOOLS:
Your best bet to start out is Proformance Racing School which is based at Pacific Raceway. It's run by Don Kitch Jr. who has over 25 years of experience and he also drives for Team Seattle (Ferrari) almost every year with their Le Mans entry. GOOD school and they have rental lapping/school cars or you can bring your own. Most excellent team of coaches and teachers.

Proformance:
http://www.proformanceracingschool.com/


Club racing is ALIVE and WELL in the Great Northwest. Just not SCCA (sadly)

[nskyline34]

Yes she is my gf right now, but here once I get my tax return that will change. Also I already have a house (rented out) and she'll be buying this one. So I dont have to worry about that. Thanks for pointing that out though.

Yes Karting is very popular around here and quite compeditive. I never really made it to the level I wanted too however. (kids with $15k karts and a team Birel semi backing them was hard to beat). But I think I know now where it is that I need to start and what direction it is that I should be heading in.

I was thinking taking something like that proformance 2 day licensing school to get out there and get some good track time and then hit up the skip barber 3 day formula course to get educated in full size open wheel cars.

Sounds like you guys are basically saying that I should just go right from karting to buying a Star Mazda car. Not INTO Star Mazda competition, but just buy the car and hit track days to get used to it and then get into racing it... That way I dont waste money buying extra cars I dont have too.... and just rent a formula ford (f1600) for a season of racing to get used to the full size weight transfer.

Can someone chime in with about how much its going to cost to run a season in Formula Ford by renting?

Thanks again for all of your great input and help.

[nskyline34]

can someone post an address for where I can rent formula fords from for races around the PNW? Want to figure out the pricing of these and see what the rental "packages" include too.

[DaveW]

1. You have a great attitude, IMO. I stuck with doing my racing mostly on my own with minimal sponsorship because I didn't want all the BS that goes with major sponsorship and high-level racing.

2. You can buy a good club level FF (and sell it when you are done), IMO, for less than you will spend renting one. You will learn more wrenching and tuning it yourself than you would if you rented it, because if you did rent it, the renter would probably be a team with its own mechanics, etc. There is almost nothing you won't learn with a club-level FF that you would with a more expensive one.

It is obvious to me that you have a great deal of common sense, and are intelligent, so I have no doubt that you will learn a lot that way.

Attending seminars on setup and DAQ will accelerate that. I have a link to some setup stuff that I presented in 2005: http://www.neohio-scca.org/comp_clin...ut%202005a.pdf

So, get a reasonably-priced FF, and go for it.

[nskyline34]

1. You have a great attitude, IMO. I stuck with doing my racing mostly on my own with minimal sponsorship because I didn't want all the BS that goes with major sponsorship and high-level racing.

2. You can buy a good club level FF (and sell it when you are done), IMO, for less than you will spend renting one. You will learn more wrenching and tuning it yourself than you would if you rented it, because if you did rent it, the renter would probably be a team with its own mechanics, etc. There is almost nothing you won't learn with a club-level FF that you would with a more expensive one.

It is obvious to me that you have a great deal of common sense, and are intelligent, so I have no doubt that you will learn a lot that way.

Doing seminars on setup and DAQ will accelerate that.

So, get a reasonably-priced FF, and go for it.

Dave would you mind sending me a link to an ad for a Club Formula Ford please? I'm having trouble with where to find them and what I'm lookin for.

Also you mentioned seminars on setup??? Where are these and how can I find a calendar to start going?

Thanks for the compliments and the insight about renting. I totally forgot about that fact (they wont let ME do the adjustments). That is a very good idea, Plus if I buy in the off-season and sell in season I can probably break even (when it comes to the purchase price). Thanks again for your help.

What are your thoughts about my progression ideas? Karting while getting a FF --->> Race a season or two --->> Step to FF2000 (aero package) then to --->> Star cars?

And yes, I'm a VERY driven person. If I set a goal, it happens. I have yet to not meet a goal unless I pull the plug for a valid reason. This will be the same. Once I throw down cash to get a kart, the clock starts. 5 years from them (and a s*** load of money later) I will be racing a star mazda car. I dont care if I come in last. In my eyes, I made it.

[Franklin Futrelle]

Go to work. Save up 2-5 million. Go race professionally. Unlike motocross, you can simply by professional rides, no talent necessary. There are people racing grand-am and alms with very little talent but lots of coin.

[DaveW]

Dave would you mind sending me a link to an ad for a Club Formula Ford please? I'm having trouble with where to find them and what I'm lookin for.

I don't have anything you wouldn't be able to find. Just look in the FF for sale and post in the FF wanted area.

Also you mentioned seminars on setup??? Where are these and how can I find a calendar to start going?

I attached a link to a setup document, apparently after you read my post. Also, look and search in the general events section for ones that are coming up. You could also post there asking for links to them.

Thanks for the compliments and the insight about renting. I totally forgot about that fact (they wont let ME do the adjustments). That is a very good idea, Plus if I buy in the off-season and sell in season I can probably break even (when it comes to the purchase price). Thanks again for your help.

What are your thoughts about my progression ideas? Karting while getting a FF --->> Race a season or two --->> Step to FF2000 (aero package) then to --->> Star cars?

I had no problem moving up from FVee to FF to FC, and I am sure you won't either. The main reason to do FF is that almost everything you need to know to make any car go fast can be learned there. Wings are pretty easy to learn and adapt to.

And yes, I'm a VERY driven person. If I set a goal, it happens. I have yet to not meet a goal unless I pull the plug for a valid reason. This will be the same. Once I throw down cash to get a kart, the clock starts. 5 years from them (and a s*** load of money later) I will be racing a star mazda car. I dont care if I come in last. In my eyes, I made it.

Well, if you are anything like me, coming in last would be VERY unsatisfying. I am a very competitive person, even at age 70. If I become non-competitive, I will quit racing.

[S Lathrop]

Sounds like you guys are basically saying that I should just go right from karting to buying a Star Mazda car. Not INTO Star Mazda competition,...

I will stand by my criticism of spec formula classes, FM, FE and Star Mazda. You need to master car setup and tuning. You won't get that in spec classes because the setups are largely spec like the cars. There are very limited options for setups.

I just think that the job is easier in FF, a non-wing class than it is in a wing class. Race craft is best learned by winning and beating the masters of the class. FF is easier to drive than say FC, therefore there are more people running at the front of the class.

You could buy a mid 90's VD, 4 shock version, and start learning. Good driving and good preparation and you can win with that car or something like it. A DB6 or 94 Citation would be faster in that vintage but those cars are not easy to find.

Get your self a small covered trailer, something that just protects the car and hauls the stuff you need. Get a station wagon (way better millage than a truck or van) and try to do a race every weekend. Plan on doing 30 or more races in a year. Live out of the car. That is how some of the big names in Indy car racing past and present started their careers.

Houses and fgs are not required equipment. They are drains on you resources.

Now how serious are you about a racing career?

[Top]

A lot of very good advice has been given and you sound like the kind of guy that will meet your goals.

I'm going to toss in some advice that others may well disagree with. For cheap practice and car control skill autoX. You'll blow a lot of time on little seat time but that seat time can teach you a great deal. If you want to do this in a FF that's fine but any cheap evil handling RWD car (MR2, 2000 S2000, etc.) that is NOT set up perfectly on street tires will help keep your reactions sharp until you can move into a a real race car. Note: forget this if you can run Shifters until you get a car.

I autocrossed with several clubs for a few years before doing my first track day in a former FF that had been converted into a "Special" V8 powered winged monster. The first one I owned was an FC and I did well with in in TT's. The only reason I feel I was able to start at that level was because of the car control skills I'd honed autoXing.

Of course this advice is worth the paper it's written on and since no paper was used, it ain't worth squat!

I do however wish you the best of luck.

Topper

[Chris Livengood]

If i had a decent racing budget, like a few hundred thousand instead of 25 thousand, i'd race two liters one or two years. Then I'd go straight to Indy Light. Star Mazda is a waste of time. I'd probably also throw in some midget racing in there too, just to get a hang of the ovals. The end game would be to end up in a GT car at somepoint. So who's willing to multiply my racing budget by 8?

[TimH]

Sounds like you guys are basically saying that I should just go right from karting to buying a Star Mazda car. Not INTO Star Mazda competition, but just buy the car and hit track days to get used to it and then get into racing it... That way I dont waste money buying extra cars I dont have too.... and just rent a formula ford (f1600) for a season of racing to get used to the full size weight transfer.

I don't think that's the best choice for you. Reasons:

1) (Repeating others' advice I didn't read before I started typing, but maybe with a different emphasis) If you go with an older/cheaper club FF1600 of your own I expect you'd get more experience tuning the setup than you would with rentals. I enjoy tinkering with little fit and setup issues in the garage and paddock almost as much as I enjoy the seat time. *IF* you get tired of FF1600 you can probably sell the car for roughly what you paid for it, assuming you kept pouring $ into keeping it up and didn't trash it. Some folks wind up selling for a profit (again, if you don't count all that $ poured in month by month, regardless of what you run).

2) From Rick's post I get the impression you might not want that Star Mazda up in your neighborhood. No matter the virtues/vices of that class, there aren't very many of them to play with up there.

which leads to

3) The best way to find a car is to look locally. Hang out on ApexSpeed for even a few months and you'll run across some great deals on great cars in the classified forums, but when you go racing you're not just buying a car but joining a community. You're probably not going to want to trailer all over the country until you get a lot better (if then). Get to know the guys with whom you'll be sharing asphalt and maybe rubber. They'll also know when something coming on the market is worth your interest.

4) Meanwhile, keeping your skills fresh in karts or even autocross with your daily driver is never a mistake.

[glenn cooper]

A few more things:
Back when I transitioned from m/c roadracing, I had done several events in a nice street car w/ cage, then rented a FF a few times, then a Formula Mazda which did it for me, and then purchased one.

Most of my car racing friends were in FF @ the time (this is before they allowed the stronger steel crankshaft) and were ventilating engines quite often to the tune of several thousand dollars a shot. THIS fact alone sent me looking for something more reliable, enter the FM - Tons of fun/grip/giggles, and my first engine had 73 races on it before needing rebuilt.

I think w/ your shifter Kart background, you'd do well stepping into about anything, but the basics are best taught in a non-winged car.
I suggested CLUB FF (basically vintage) as opposed to FF so you could run at about ANY type weekend, getting time in the car, and experience.
Tires will last a very long time, not so much in a modern (FC/FB/FM/Pro FM, etc), some of which go off after the third heat cycle, basically good for one day, essentially.

Tires (next to the girlfriend) will be your biggest expense w/ newer cars.

Motorcycle guys often "get it" right away as they have a ton more contact patch to exploit, and lets face it - cars, even open wheelers raise the sanity level pretty damned far as compared to dragging a knee around a corner and dialing on the power trying not to overload a contact patch barely larger than a pack of Trojan Magnums.

[DaveW]

...Also you mentioned seminars on setup??? Where are these and how can I find a calendar to start going? ...

Google Competition seminar, Competition clinic, racing seminar, data acquisition seminar, etc. I'll bet you'll have more hits than you know what to do with.

[nskyline34]

I will stand by my criticism of spec formula classes, FM, FE and Star Mazda. You need to master car setup and tuning. You won't get that in spec classes because the setups are largely spec like the cars. There are very limited options for setups.

I just think that the job is easier in FF, a non-wing class than it is in a wing class. Race craft is best learned by winning and beating the masters of the class. FF is easier to drive than say FC, therefore there are more people running at the front of the class.

You could buy a mid 90's VD, 4 shock version, and start learning. Good driving and good preparation and you can win with that car or something like it. A DB6 or 94 Citation would be faster in that vintage but those cars are not easy to find.

Get your self a small covered trailer, something that just protects the car and hauls the stuff you need. Get a station wagon (way better millage than a truck or van) and try to do a race every weekend. Plan on doing 30 or more races in a year. Live out of the car. That is how some of the big names in Indy car racing past and present started their careers.

I already have a truck and am in the process of getting something like a 20-24' enclosed race trailer. I will just put a mini fridge, microwave and a futon in the front along with other necessities.

Houses and fgs are not required equipment. They are drains on you resources.

I know its not required. But considering she is paying for half of this and that I cant live without the girl she's staying.

Now how serious are you about a racing career?

I'm not really sure how to answer this, to me racing is just a place to get my speed kicks. I'm not going to make it to F1, I know this and have no aspirations for indy. I'd go to GT2 if I'm good enough or even formula atlantic. I am very serious about it. It's the only hobby I know and have given everything for. I've sacraficed many nice cars and other play toys to fund my racing careers over the years. On the other hand though. I (as of right now) do not want to do this professionally. I basically want To have incredible car control and want to have the skill to drive a Star-M at its limits. Going back to what Franklin Futrelle said, If I cannot drive the car to its potential there is no point in me being there. I hate people who just throw money at racing with no skill. Mainly because I've beat those people on a tenth of the budget and could use their equipment to progress further than the will. For me racing is about car control and the ability to run 9 or 10 10ths without mistake. until I get to that point in a Star car I will not be stopping.

A lot of very good advice has been given and you sound like the kind of guy that will meet your goals.

I'm going to toss in some advice that others may well disagree with. For cheap practice and car control skill autoX. You'll blow a lot of time on little seat time but that seat time can teach you a great deal. If you want to do this in a FF that's fine but any cheap evil handling RWD car (MR2, 2000 S2000, etc.) that is NOT set up perfectly on street tires will help keep your reactions sharp until you can move into a a real race car. Note: forget this if you can run Shifters until you get a car.

I am looking at buying another shifter later this year and will start racing over the summer I hope. I still have all my gear and tools, I just need the kart and I can start right back up. Still have a couple sets of tires even. haha I'm getting a C6Z for xmas this year (grad present to me) so that will no doubt hit the AX track a lot too.

I autocrossed with several clubs for a few years before doing my first track day in a former FF that had been converted into a "Special" V8 powered winged monster. The first one I owned was an FC and I did well with in in TT's. The only reason I feel I was able to start at that level was because of the car control skills I'd honed autoXing.

Of course this advice is worth the paper it's written on and since no paper was used, it ain't worth squat!

I do however wish you the best of luck.

Thanks very much. It wont be hard, it will be a fun journey. And as long as I'm progressing and being competitive (which I am VERY competitive) I will have the time of my life.

Topper

Dave, I'm very competitive, I meant that if I come in last I made it to where my goal is right now. at that point my new goal will be formula atlantic or something of the like. In no way is last or even second ok, however, that being said as long as I'm getting faster I know I will eventually get there which is what keeps me motivated.

Everyone keeps telling me to let the gf go, no gonna happen. She is very much apart of this since she lets me blow her paychecks on speed parts and racing. she also loves to travel and wants to go to these with me and get into karting with me. if she was a nag/anchor and didnt help me with racing, we wouldnt be together in the first place. I have my priorities and I told her since day one. shes fantastic about respecting my need for speed.

[DaveW]

Dave, I'm very competitive, I meant that if I come in last I made it to where my goal is right now. at that point my new goal will be formula atlantic or something of the like. In no way is last or even second ok, however, that being said as long as I'm getting faster I know I will eventually get there which is what keeps me motivated.

Everyone keeps telling me to let the gf go, no gonna happen. She is very much apart of this since she lets me blow her paychecks on speed parts and racing. she also loves to travel and wants to go to these with me and get into karting with me. if she was a nag/anchor and didnt help me with racing, we wouldnt be together in the first place. I have my priorities and I told her since day one. shes fantastic about respecting my need for speed.

You sound even more like me now. Both the competitive nature, and having a GF/wife.

Sherrie and I have been married for 45 years, we've been racing for 44, owned a house for 37, and it's just getting better.

Good luck!

[TimH]

The subject comes up over and over again but this kid seems to have his head screwed on a lot straighter than usual, with a result of really superior advice.

Next time the question is asked we could just point to here..

[nskyline34]

I don't think that's the best choice for you. Reasons:

1) (Repeating others' advice I didn't read before I started typing, but maybe with a different emphasis) If you go with an older/cheaper club FF1600 of your own I expect you'd get more experience tuning the setup than you would with rentals. I enjoy tinkering with little fit and setup issues in the garage and paddock almost as much as I enjoy the seat time. *IF* you get tired of FF1600 you can probably sell the car for roughly what you paid for it, assuming you kept pouring $ into keeping it up and didn't trash it. Some folks wind up selling for a profit (again, if you don't count all that $ poured in month by month, regardless of what you run).

2) From Rick's post I get the impression you might not want that Star Mazda up in your neighborhood. No matter the virtues/vices of that class, there aren't very many of them to play with up there.

which leads to

3) The best way to find a car is to look locally. Hang out on ApexSpeed for even a few months and you'll run across some great deals on great cars in the classified forums, but when you go racing you're not just buying a car but joining a community. You're probably not going to want to trailer all over the country until you get a lot better (if then). Get to know the guys with whom you'll be sharing asphalt and maybe rubber. They'll also know when something coming on the market is worth your interest.

4) Meanwhile, keeping your skills fresh in karts or even autocross with your daily driver is never a mistake.

Your point #1 was mentioned and I 100% agree with it. I completely forgot that when renting you cant put a wrench to the car, not ok with me. I will be buying a club FF after a year or so more of getting back into shifters and then get a star mazda to start Formula Challenge racing over here on the west side. and I will try and hit the track as often as possible in the kart to keep sharp.

[nskyline34]

The subject comes up over and over again but this kid seems to have his head screwed on a lot straighter than usual, with a result of really superior advice.

Next time the question is asked we could just point to here..

Thanks man I really try. My dad got me into racing when I was 4. now almost 20 years later I havent gone a year since without being into at least one form if not two. I know the ups and downs of racing, the cost (i've paid for most of it all myself even through highschool) and the affect that it has on family when it comes to injuries. I also know that without the proper planning and having a goal/plan to get somewhere it isnt going to happen. that is why I'm asking so many questions and thanks for all of the great answers and guidance. I've always dreamed about racing a star mazda (reasonably) or even having enough skill to drive an old F1 car fast enough to keep heat in the tires. So now that I'm out of school I can FINALLY get my a** in gear and get going!!

But first things first, sell the car (I still have my truck) and get back into shifters.


Just for clarification to everyone else. I'm not shooting for racing star mazda with the intention of indylites or indy. If anything my ULTIMATE DREAM goal is to buy an old F1 car (late 90's early 2000's) and be able to just have fun dominating test and tune days with it while racing FC and being competitive. I feel like I can manage to race Star mazda with only a little help (financially). I'm wise enough to know what my limit is and formula atlantic wont happen without a lot of help.

[nskyline34]

You sound even more like me now. Both the competitive nature, and having a GF/wife.

Sherrie and I have been married for 45 years, we've been racing for 44, owned a house for 37, and it's just getting better.

Good luck!

EXACTLY what I'm thinking. I've tried pushing everything out of my life for racing...it was great. but extremely lonely. and believe it or not when the GF started supporting me it made me progress MUCH faster. (not really sure how though. lol)

[nskyline34]

A few more things:
Back when I transitioned from m/c roadracing, I had done several events in a nice street car w/ cage, then rented a FF a few times, then a Formula Mazda which did it for me, and then purchased one.

Most of my car racing friends were in FF @ the time (this is before they allowed the stronger steel crankshaft) and were ventilating engines quite often to the tune of several thousand dollars a shot. THIS fact alone sent me looking for something more reliable, enter the FM - Tons of fun/grip/giggles, and my first engine had 73 races on it before needing rebuilt.

I think w/ your shifter Kart background, you'd do well stepping into about anything, but the basics are best taught in a non-winged car.
I suggested CLUB FF (basically vintage) as opposed to FF so you could run at about ANY type weekend, getting time in the car, and experience.
Tires will last a very long time, not so much in a modern (FC/FB/FM/Pro FM, etc), some of which go off after the third heat cycle, basically good for one day, essentially.

Tires (next to the girlfriend) will be your biggest expense w/ newer cars.

Motorcycle guys often "get it" right away as they have a ton more contact patch to exploit, and lets face it - cars, even open wheelers raise the sanity level pretty damned far as compared to dragging a knee around a corner and dialing on the power trying not to overload a contact patch barely larger than a pack of Trojan Magnums.

Oh yea I forgot in addition to motocross I used to hammer mountain roads on my crotch rocket. (had a 2000 R1 then sold it for my truck to be able to haul to races).

[nskyline34]

One thing I am sort of unsure of though is what to do (if anything) between FF and Star-M? Can I just buy a star mazda and take it to test and tune days to learn aero for a year while racing the FF for that year one last time and then the next year sell the FF and race the Star-M? or is something like a F2000 a good stepping stone? worried I'm trying to take too small of steps when I can or should be taking bigger ones to get there?

[DaveW]

One thing I am sort of unsure of though is what to do (if anything) between FF and Star-M? Can I just buy a star mazda and take it to test and tune days to learn aero for a year while racing the FF for that year one last time and then the next year sell the FF and race the Star-M? or is something like a F2000 a good stepping stone? worried I'm trying to take too small of steps when I can or should be taking bigger ones to get there?

As I said before, learning aero is not too difficult. The basics and generalities are easy. The devil is in the details of each car needed to optimize it.

If you really want aero experience on a widely adjustable car for reasonable $, do FC (F2000) which has everything you want to learn about. Again, ANY spec class will be very limiting.

Also, the same comments apply to FC that apply to FF - you don't need the latest thing to learn, or even to run at the pointy end. It can be done on a reasonable budget if you do a lot of the work yourself.

[nskyline34]

As I said before, learning aero is not too difficult. The basics and generalities are easy. The devil is in the details of each car needed to optimize it.

If you really want aero experience on a widely adjustable car for reasonable $, do FC (F2000) which has everything you want to learn about. Again, ANY spec class will be very limiting.

Also, the same comments apply to FC that apply to FF - you don't need the latest thing to learn, or even to run at the pointy end. It can be done on a reasonable budget if you do a lot of the work yourself.

Ok, Sounds good to me. How do the F2000 cars perform in comparison to the FF's? are they in between the FF and FM? Just curious where they ly

[DaveW]

Ok, Sounds good to me. How do the F2000 cars perform in comparison to the FF's? are they in between the FF and FM? Just curious where they ly

In qualifying (pole time) at the 2012 Runoffs at Road America, FC was at 2:10.2, and FF was at 2:20.6 seconds a lap.

I don't know how fast the Star Mazda would be there, but FA was at 2:01.7. I would guess that Star Mazda would likely be somewhere between the FC and FA times.

[racerdad2]

You can get a decent FC for $10k or less. I gave $9k for my Reynard. Van Diemens seem to be very popular. I'm starting racing this year at age 60. I've been racing karts for 7 yrs. I passed at racing formula cars as a young guy.... stupid move... Go for it !!! Especially with a a great, supportive gal pal ! Apex Speed has been an invaluable resource. I've gained at least a year of race experience, just reading these threads & asking guestions. Buy a car, go have fun !