Full motion versus static simulators

[Blair Robertshaw]

Hello Sim racers,

I have a question for you if I may;

Do you think lap times would be quicker in a static (no seat motion) Sim set up or a 6 axis motion simulator?

Assuming a good quality wheel with force feed back, a CST pedal set on both the static Sim and the full motion simulator. Thanks

[Paddy O'Brien]

Last month at the racecar show in Indy I tried a four post sim with thier force feedback. The system cost over $40k and they said it was state of the art,great sound too. They were using the IRACING platform and I drove the StarMazda at Laguna, I only got a couple of laps but I was much faster at home on my cheap static system. Maybe thier system was not fine tuned enough, I thought the force feedback was not at all realistic but it really did give you a sensation of sliding in a corner. I would save the 40k and buy a real car.

[racerdad2]

I used to play racer at Silicone Motor Speedway. 5/8 scale full motion NASCAR sims. Lots of fun. Software got pretty good. They ended up having custom car set-ups, drafting,pretty realistic with 3 wrap-around screens. We would have league races after 'closing'. The 'feel' was a bit 'slippery'. Loose the draft & it was rather boring I fell asleep at the wheel running the back straight at Daytona one night... Hence the term, NAPCAR perhaps, you can track down their software guys ? I had two shattered vertebrae in my lower back, fractured one in my neck, several blown out disks... A safe way to 'race' while in recovery mode

[Blair Robertshaw]

BTT

[swiftdrivr]

Are you selling a 6-axis, or do you know of one mere mortals can afford? I'd bet Mclarens is better than mine, but in my world, that is meaningless data. I am unlikely to ever get to use it.

[Blair Robertshaw]

Yes I do sell motion sims but that's not the reason for the question! We have had fast experienced race drivers in the sim, we have had fast virtual drivers in the sim. ALL the race drivers have been slower than the virtual racers for reasons which Im sure you know but what has been curious is that the fast virtual racers are not as fast in the motion sim and the racers that do both (real world racing & real world sim racing) on a regular basis are not as fast in the motion sim.

That was the reason for the question, to see if anyone else out there had any experience with the same or similar scenario and if so what they observed.

[Adam Brouillard]

I would say it depends on what you are simulating with the setup. I've spent a lot of time analyzing proper cues for driving and I think that the vast majority of the input you need is all visual anyway. I think a simulator that spun 360 and could mimic yaw would be useful, but simulators can't simulate g-forces properly anyway and g-forces really aren't all that helpful compared to vision. Simulating bumps don't really help all that much either, that would just be for fun and immersion.

[racerdad2]

I've raced against many top NASCAR drivers @ SMS... Names withheld to protect my Azz... Great guys, easily beat & all said the same thing after the sim races, " Ya, well, you just try that in a real car after 40 laps & your tires are junk, coming into turn one at 200 mph ! " We all knew they were far better racers. Still, fun to beat the pros, even if is just a sim...

[Steve Davis]

FWIW - Personally, I have a LOT of experience in a real race car (several different types), and 'some measurable amount' in a static sim. I CANNOT seem to come to grips with the sim environment. From my perspective, most of the input re DRIVING FAST in a real car is *NOT* visual. It is 'seat of the pants' - meaning G FORCES. Although I have never driven a sim with even minimal 'force inputs' other than steering wheel force feedback, I don't believe that there is any 'muti-input system' on the planet that can even remotely mimic on track G forces (again, IMHO). "Sim" racers that never drive a real car (and probably some that DO) learn to ADAPT to the screen inputs and take appropriate action .. if they practice enough. I have, myself, "learned" a number of tricks to driving a sim car that do not apply AT ALL in any real world situation. It is VERY difficult from my perspective to overcome all that I have learned about how to drive a REAL car fast and convert that into something that is mostly useless for me - like SIM RACING.... unless I want to give up real racing and CONVERT to Sim ... Probably a LOT cheaper for me if I did want to convert, but the only real reason I'm interested in sims is to "learn" an unfamiliar track. I get my ass handed to me on a regular basis in the sim world and that's OK - as my primary goal is simply to arrive at an unfamiliar track a bit more PREPARED than I would be without the sim. Obviously, some of the people I compete with in the sim world are MUCH better at sim than I .. with considerably inferior equipment in some cases.
Like I said above... I just don't seem to be able to adapt to a essentially totally visual input. It took me several weeks to learn how to 'play drive' a sim without having EXTREME nausea .. and VERY poor performance. I hope it hasn't hurt my on track performance .. I don't THINK it has.

I'm also not in a position to put 5 times the cost of my race car into a 'multi-input sim system' just to find out if it's better than a static system. I WOULD be interested to try out the Ferrari sim that Alonzo has at his house, but I still don't think it provides a great deal more to him than learning (or refreshing) the track before arrival. I would be VERY surprised to hear him say that he learned shifting, braking or turn in points from his VERY SOPHISTICATED, VERY EXPENSIVE sim. If I DID have a few $MILLION$ sitting around doing nothing more useful, I'd probably have one just for the fun of it .. but I don't.

Steve, FV80

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

Moog - http://www.moog.com/markets/motorspo...st-simulation/

Cruden - http://www.cruden.com/ are incredible Sim companies.

If anyone is in the Montreal area and wants to test our Cruden Sims at Vortex Racing, let me know.

[racerdad2]

IMHO... Sims are great for learning tracks and the really good, fulk-motion one's can help with all the aspects of real racing... Pilots gain valuable & 'logable' real world flight experience in Sims... At $5k per hour, or more, they better

[racerdad2]

Please PM me on don rentals. We may be able to come play

[Sir5n]

Hello,

I'm new here and really appreciate reading the posts. Very informative.
Spent a 3 hour session in this Simtech full motion simulator last Friday.

It's a cup car for my session-but it can be set up as a formula car.

https://vimeo.com/88028155?utm_sourc...d8NzcwMQ%3D%3D

Keith

[Blair Robertshaw]

So Mosport in a Ruff R12. what were your times?

[Sir5n]

Times…Carl's ( driving in this vid ) best was 123.09. Sim record is 1:22 with a possible best of 1:19 seconds. His goal was to post the fastest lap, he crashed…a lot.

My goal was to get acquainted with PDK type paddle shifts on the Grand Prix track. My best was 1:24 with consistent 1:27's and driving smoothly. It was my first time in a 911 Cup Car but way too much fun without consequence.

The question posed by this thread is full motion vs. static. I'd take it a step further and question training vs. gaming. Defining training as something to take into the workplace and gaming as taking extraordinary risk without consequence to accomplish a single task
(ie: fastest lap)

I'm a marine captain and have been in multi million dollar simulators just like fixed/rotary wing pilots. If I can take away the skills learned in simulation, good.

Thumbs up for all types of training.
Keith

[Blair Robertshaw]

"Defining training as something to take into the workplace and gaming as taking extraordinary risk without consequence to accomplish a single task"

I think you nailed it with the above statement. Gamers only consequence when racing is at worst to hit the reset button VS real world racing and if / when you crash its hit the RE-FINANCE button.

With 3 DOF and our full motion sims, if a real world race driver has ever spun off, hit a wall or crashed severely, the experience of the incident, the seat of the pants combined with the motion has them more reluctant to pursue the line or attack when in immersion that a gamer doesn't recognize....almost like ignorance is bliss.

Any of us who have crashed a race car, had to pay for repairs and god forbid, have had to spend time to medically recover all seem to be more respectful in the immersion than gamers. Not slagging gamers in anyway but if you are in IRacing and drop in on a fast gamer when he/she is at speed, the "sawing" you see on the steering wheel input is just not real world as an example but in spite of less than smooth inputs, the gamers are fast.

Of the different things we have tried, one day we disconnected the motion.... real world drivers were faster, then we turned off the sound and they were faster yet again. We understand the being faster without motion but the no sound test and the observations are very curious. Makes a guy wonder why he has gone to the added cost of motion VS static but the fact is with motion a driver can train to recognise the back end drifting or sliding out, weight transfer and a myriad of other benefits you dont get with static sims.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

[gord leach]

Man, I miss Mosport. So, Blairica,,,,,,,slide by with that stacker and pick Me up on the way

[Blair Robertshaw]

Flatspot I can only dream! Man would that be fun to make the pilgrimage! it's very fun in the simulator in the f1 car. To drive it real world with a good car would be fantastic! Buy that f1000 you've been thinking about and we'll pick you up on the way!

[gord leach]

Done Mosport a few times. Will a F2K suffice...........You know You wanna

Or Vintage FF, I can kick it Ol' Skool in the Lotus too

[Sir5n]

Hey,
Chasing away the winter with one last sim! Hoping to come back from holiday and start rolling.

https://vimeo.com/88971035

Keith

[Tigaman]

I have a couple of big $660K Cruden 6DOF platforms using Racer across the street from my static sim facility at VIR. Boris Said and I have gotten sick on those things after ten minutes, and I'm fine on my static platform for hours at a time.

I use my static platforms to perform course familiarization and driver technique training for real-life racing drivers, both at my facility and remotely (them at their location, on their equipment, me on mine). My opinion is that most every motion platform I have tried has been a disappointment because the latency and the display timing makes people see things a fraction off what they feel in their inner ear, for balance. Either I haven't been able to find one that has motion that isn't a distraction or nobody I know is an alien! Lol!

I have plenty of real-life driver clients that are very fast in sims. We output in MoTeC .ld or .vbo files and overlay with their real car data and it's often a match! Great stuff!

[Sir5n]

Funny thing with full motion sims vs static: I've been in static sims for shipping and when weather is put into the visual on a static sim with real presentation....it's unbelievable how it affects everything that you can do. It can even make moving between stations challenging.

Visual input is a huge factor in determining how our brains function and work out solutions.

Keith

[Cruzebabuze]

I do shifter karts, Mazda and single seat Utv Lucas oil short course. I have been doing static sim for a very long time, and I like them but they lack weight feel. A few month ago I started to build a motion sim and I just finished it around 2 weeks ago. My motion sim has roll, pitch, surge, yaw. And I run a few different software like:
Lvs, Iracing and Richard burns rally. It is very important to note that if your motion sim is not setup perfectly axis wise, then you will get sick, like real sick. But when it is tuned up properly I do not get sick unless I had to much to drink. Actually I have been playing around 3hrs daily and I am fine. For me motion sim is no comparison to static sim. I got 1 sec better on the motion sim. When I hit a curve I can feel it, same when I change gears. I am able to feel the weight motion when braking and cars is inclined with road which is great feel. When you crash you really feel it and even get dizzy just like in a real crash, just not as much as a real crash. I think motion sim are way more realistic and let you train more efficiently than static rigs. It is important to note that I also have 4 transducers on the rig for car vibrations. Yes motion sim are expensive but I simply love it. Actually I have 2 motion sim, because I wanted to race with friends, but second one is never used, so I am putting it for sale or trade. My motion sim is top of the line, it's big and sturdy and runs many many diff sim softwares. I am looking to trade it for a formula Mazda or FF. this second sim I have is worth around 30k in market value. It took me a lot of cash and time to build but it is one of the best out there, by the way I am a professor teaching and researching that type of equipments, so it is well build to last for years. Pm me if interested and I will send you some pictures.

[Blair Robertshaw]

The reason for motion sickness is Vestibular Indifference. This is caused by a mixed message process the brain receives. In essence, your eyes see one thing and send the message to brain, the ears / balance process is also sending a message to the brain and the two messages differ. The brain goes, wait a sec, conflicting messages so until they agree, I will make you motion sick.

This can be caused by many things, most likely from big crashes in the sim.

A correct FOV (Field of View) in the cockpit will reduce this, correct FOV is side screens at 54 to 67 degrees from center screen, driver as close to center screen as possible. Then adjust drivers sight horizon. We race in our sims at 179 degrees. When in the cockpit of our formula sims, the FOV is spot on to what we see when in actual race car. anything less and you are basically driving the car from the back seat, you will miss turn in points as well as apex's. If you have the correct FOV and are still getting motion sick, turn off the side screens for a few sessions then turn them back on, this often helps, also you can try wearing your helmet, this also works and finally, go to the local drug store and pick up some Cruiz Ship motion wrist bands, they too work but if you are in a jam, try a few zip ties on each wrist after your hand but before the wrist bone, slightly tighten them, some pressure but not enough to cut of circulation, this also works.

With respect to the comment that there is big latency in the CRUDEN base sims, that's very sad, FOV is most likely wrong but the other thing with a CRUDEN base sim is that the screens move with the motion, this is not really correct and as such may also contribute to motion sickness but the bigger concern is the comment about the Latency, this not be in a sim that starts with a quality base like a CRUDEN. What kind of Force Feed Back Steering hub does it use?

[Spengo]

Well this sure is an old thread. The fastest sim driver I know has a used DFGT clamped to a table and a single monitor. Everyone's favorite Estonian space alien, kart racer, and driving instructor Risto Kappet. He's one of those guys that seems to break the game physics and go faster than possible. Full motion rigs and fancy wheels are fun as hell but they aren't necessary to git gud. So long as your wheel has workable force feedback the rest is just extra cheese. Personally I'd spend the money on a real racecar instead, doesn't get more full motion than that!

[Cruzebabuze]

hi there, good idea on the motion sickness bracelet. interesting facts about screens, I will make sure mine are properly oriented. I have 2 motion sims, one is based on the Frex design and the other is based out of a seat mover.
The most realistic one for car racing is the seat mover because it re-produces more what happen in a car. But i like the frex design more because it can let me do more type of sims than seat mover, like plane sims and roller coaster and boat sims. Which is pretty cool.
Do you think projectors are better than flat screen TV's? I like projectors because it is seamless, what do you use?
your comment on screen is interesting, if i put my screen static, i get sick fast, if screen moves with rig then i do not get sick at all. Obviously in real world screen does not move, but motion sim is not the real world and i think screen that moves with rig is better. I agree with your analysis on motion sickness, it is due to physical motion being inversed or diff than visual, which create the motion sickness. the worst motion sickness i get is when i do rally racing sim and plane sims. But it is so much better than static rigs. what motion sim do you use? Do you use transducers? and what wheel are you using? (right now i am using a simple Fanatec Csr setup, but i want to change)

[Cruzebabuze]

Well this sure is an old thread. The fastest sim driver I know has a used DFGT clamped to a table and a single monitor. Everyone's favorite Estonian space alien, kart racer, and driving instructor Risto Kappet. He's one of those guys that seems to break the game physics and go faster than possible. Full motion rigs and fancy wheels are fun as hell but they aren't necessary to git gud. So long as your wheel has workable force feedback the rest is just extra cheese. Personally I'd spend the money on a real racecar instead, doesn't get more full motion than that!

If you just want to be fast in sim games than yes i agree with you 100%, but if you want to practice weight transfer, line, hitting apex on new track and learn track line on new track, then i take motion sim any time over static rig. Yes i agree with you for the cash a motion sim is worth you better off buying a race car. But it depends if you can build it yourself. I build mine for fairly cheap, put tons of hours working on it, but end results is really worth it. when i can not get to track i can still practice. Actually the sims i build is so good that after like 1hr of sims, i crave going to the track to get more, which never happened with static rigs. i am not saying that motion sim is the same as racing a real car, but it gets closer for me and close enough to be useful. i would not put 30k into one though, but i did put a few k into mine and a few month of work on it, which now i am glad i did. If anyone is interested i can build others motion rig from Frex design to seat movers. pm me if interested, i custom design it, i have a break over summer, so i will be building some. Actually i started right now to build a motorcycle motion sim racing rig for both road and offroad, should be cool. but i can design it for car, planes, bike, boats.... you name it. One thing to remember is that the more DOF the slower the sims becomes. For cars no more than 3dof, after that i don't like them because they are too slow.

[Blair Robertshaw]

We use Bodnar / Sim Steering Force feed back servo motors for our steering hubs. the actual wheels are REXING Carbon Fiber Sim Racing Wheels and MoMO 27c wheels. I am the North American Distributor for REXING, very nice wheel, great display. Carbon shift and clutch paddles, very well made. Motion for us is 3 DOF and provided by DBOX 4250i actuators. I have had drivers in who have tried the seat mover sims and they dont like them, one fellow was in Ca at a place and asked the guy to shut the seat off from moving because it was too arcadish! We have tried all different sizes of screens over the years and we think best size is 42", they render your visuals at the right size, ie your pit crew is the correct size as they would be in real world if you were sitting in your race car and they were standing beside you. Our formula chassis are replicas of our Stohr f1ooo race cars. We use both pressure brake systems like in real race cars Tilton OBP and Wilwood as well as H.E load cell pedals and they are very very good, most widely used pedals in GP2 sims.

We only run iRacing for many reasons but one of the benefits using iRacing is they allow us to change a few of the graphic ini files that give the car more visual rotation in corners and an added benefit once we adjusted these files was the car now gave us the feel of modest rear traction loss that you can feel and save the car. the change worked really well with the motion code, it is modest but the benefit of it in the motion sim helped many of our drivers the ability to recognize it quickly in real world racing.

Motion Simulators heighten all of the other senses a driver uses in real world racing because of the absence of G force and I must disagree with the comment above that G force doesnt contribute much in real world racing. The biggest adjustment we see that drivers have trouble with in the sim is how many feet per second you are actually traveling. G force contributes and gives you a more accurate perception of this. One thing for sure at least for me, the sim develops quick reaction time and when I make the transition from sim to race car my reaction time to ever changing real world race car conditions is much quicker than without using the sim, its like i feel or recognize the "seat of the pants" moment sooner and react much quicker.

[Cruzebabuze]

I used to have a static rig, but I build a sturdy motion sim. I have to say that In reality the motion helped a lot for apex and line.. but what helped the most was the addition of VR system. I have not done any regular racing on it anymore, I use the VR all the time. When in VR first you can turn heads and see apex and other drivers, also because now you do not see the motion sim, the motion became more realistic. I love the motion there is nothing better that feeling the rear wheel going out and being able to bring it back because of motion. I would really advice anyone to go motion. if anyone is interested I havee for sale or trade for a ride a motion sim. I have a f600 and I have setup my moti N am pedals and feel,just like my car. but I am looking for like a FF or FM roller or not. The motion sim that I design are real heavy around 700lbs and are very sturdy and very reliable. Pm if you have a cool trade for a motion sim

[Cruzebabuze]

it is too slow, because 6 dof is too slow of reaction to be realistic. I teach in a polytechnic college and we do tons of these. for me pass 3dof, it is way too slow and not worth it. actually I have a few sims and unless it is for plane, I stick with 2 dof for car racing. it is the fastest and work just fine for car racing, you can still do tons of sim with it, and it is real fast. actually I like better 1 dof than 6 dof

[Cruzebabuze]

Times…Carl's ( driving in this vid ) best was 123.09. Sim record is 1:22 with a possible best of 1:19 seconds. His goal was to post the fastest lap, he crashed…a lot.

My goal was to get acquainted with PDK type paddle shifts on the Grand Prix track. My best was 1:24 with consistent 1:27's and driving smoothly. It was my first time in a 911 Cup Car but way too much fun without consequence.

The question posed by this thread is full motion vs. static. I'd take it a step further and question training vs. gaming. Defining training as something to take into the workplace and gaming as taking extraordinary risk without consequence to accomplish a single task
(ie: fastest lap)

I'm a marine captain and have been in multi million dollar simulators just like fixed/rotary wing pilots. If I can take away the skills learned in simulation, good.

Thumbs up for all types of training.
Keith

I kind of agree and disagree with you. I am in charge of video game for a state college. And the diff between video game and training using a simulation software as to do with the coding of the physics. Games are coded to help player play better so it is not following real physics, while training always follow real world physics as much as possible.

[Rick Kirchner]

I've had the opportunity to fly the V-22, UH-1Y AH-1W, and AH-1Z flight simulators lately and it seems like combat aviation has moved away from full motion, at least on the slower platforms. IIRC the AH-1W setup is the only one with full motion. I have't been to Beaufort to get a look at the F-35 setup.

The AH-1Z setup is a dome simulator with the front of an actual aircraft thrust into the centroid of the sphere. It's projector based. There's a narrow platform around the cockpit so you can get out to it and an instructor can crouch down along side if necessary.

When they turn the sim on and the pilot banks, if you're on the platform you need to grab the handrail - it's that good.

[Yippee38]

I've always thought that the only axis that would make my sim driving better would be having yaw.