Running with faster cars

[Darryl Wills]

I never said "erratic"...I wanted to clarify what I meant by screwy racing lines that V's take compared to other cars. You guys run down the middle of the straights nose to tail and then make a big swing to the outside of the straight to enter the corner. This is the proper racing line but the wing and thing cars are generally over to the side of the straight preparing for a straight line braking into the corner. To us, it looks like you are swerving out of the way to let us pass. ..Just providing everyone with information that may help to keep all of our fellow racers safe. I know this and have never had an incident with a V, Ford or 500. Now other FMs,FCs,Sport Racers is another story

[Steve Davis]

Darryl,
Thanks for the clarification. I would tell you why the Vees do that, but it might make you even FASTER, if that's possible .
I wish we just all (BETWEEN classes .. not WITHIN) had TELEPATHY between us - then ... well, at least we'd know what the other person was planning to do ahead of time.

We'll keep working on it and hopefully get better at it. I know I'd LIKE to keep racing a while longer. Any way we can manage that without injuring each other or totally emptying our wallets would be good IMHO.

Steve, FV80

[Darryl Wills]

per the GCR 3.5.2

"D. It is preferable not to combine FA, FB, FC, FE, and FM with FV and/
or F500. FV may be combined with F500."

Let's get this changed from preferable to prohibited

[Darryl Wills]

GCR 3.5.2 states "D. It is preferable not to combine FA, FB, FC, FE, and FM with FV and/
or F500. FV may be combined with F500." wording change from "preferable not" to "prohibited"

This is a serious safety issue with a 20-35% speed difference bewtween all open wheel classes and the FVs.

Tracking #10074

We will see

[tedsimmons2]

Be careful what you wish for - what happens if the FV and F5 entry numbers are not sufficient for their own Group? Where will we run? Ted

[jim morgan]

Been doing this for 25 years there is no safe place for FV in mixed open wheel. F5 and F6 can run safely with FF. No fault of the FV but it's performance characteristics are better suited to SRF which is also no match.
Closing rates of 30-40+ beg for dive bomb passes the alternative is to come to a stop mid turn and wait.
Spent years in CF with FA splitting and diving it's not just mirrors but track awareness first guy lapping may be a surprise after that slower classes have to know the train is coming and be ready at every turn.
If I come up on an FV race I try to never split them up on the other hand if i come up on a single FV and I have a race anything short of contact not to be held up is fair play.
That being said Sebring has always been a crashfest, rusty, people in new classes and unfamiliar drivers on a fast track

[Darryl Wills]

put the F500 and FV with SRF because of low numbers from the F5 and FV. That is a better pairing than with faster open wheel cars. At least you can bounce off of the side of a SRF and no one goes air borne. BTW, I am sure that the CRB is not going to just change the verbiage in the GCR just because I asked for it.

[DanW]

put the F500 and FV with SRF because of low numbers from the F5 and FV. That is a better pairing than with faster open wheel cars. At least you can bounce off of the side of a SRF and no one goes air borne. BTW, I am sure that the CRB is not going to just change the verbiage in the GCR just because I asked for it.

Umm, the SF Region tried running FV with SRF with really unpleasant results. The SRF guys had a difficult time seeing the vees in their mirrors.

[Brett Lane]

Hey Darryl,

One of the reasons they probably won't change the verbage on the rules, and any lawyer will tell you that words like "preferable", and "may" leaves them wiggle room when interpreting things.

FV's were grouped with SRF's here as well. They had these orange flags on a three foot stick mounte on the front of their cars, but I don't think it worked that well. Coincidentally, A SRF took out a FC at the exact same spot as JR2's accident at Sebring doing the same pass(on the outside) a year or so ago. He never looked or saw him coming.

I guess the only thing to do is to emphasize how important it is to drive a predictable, proper line that everyone else is driving. Predictable being the key, as you will have a pretty good idea where a car will be in the next hundred feet.

[gbmetcalf]

In one of my driver's schools at Watkins I was following a SRF for a lap going into the 90 I hit my breaks and the peddle went to the floor the only thing I could do was take an early apex under the SRF. We would have been fine if he'd looked in his mirrors but he didn't. The result was a bent rim and getting my butt chewed by a racing dad who made his son miss an on track session while he buffed out the black tire mark on the SRF. SRF's go fast on the straights and stop to turn, Vees are slower on the straights and faster in the twisties. Mixing the two is a wreck waiting to happen.

JMO

G.

[S Lathrop]

put the F500 and FV with SRF because of low numbers from the F5 and FV. That is a better pairing than with faster open wheel cars. At least you can bounce off of the side of a SRF and no one goes air borne. BTW, I am sure that the CRB is not going to just change the verbiage in the GCR just because I asked for it.

That sounds like a logical solution. But it was tried when SRF was first introduced. The results were a disaster waiting to happen.

In short, the FV were/are significantly faster in the corners than a SRF. And a SRF can not see a FV or F500 that is following directly behind.

The FVs settled disputes with SRFs by touching their rear toe links in the braking zones. That made the pass much easier and you did not have to worry about dealing with the SRF after that. FV are built to push each other and doing the favor for a SRF is considered polite among some.

FV is the 4th or 5th largest class and the largest fromula car class in SCCA. When entries are precious to race organizers, what are they to do?

There is a very big problem with class groupings in SCCA. The FM, FE, and FC boys are none too happy with each other. Unfortunately there is no simple solution. If you tell the FV and F500 guys to stay home, you may not have enough entries to cover the costs of holding a race. The future may be more programs like the pro F2000 and F1600. Or events where a single class gets enough entries to contract for their own time on a race weekend, similar to F2000 at Mid-Ohio last year.

I see this problem as more and more of my customers are not running SCCA club events.

[Darryl Wills]

to stay home. But there is a definite safety issue with running Vs and wing cars. We ran with the Vs at VIR for the Oak tree National and it was scary. Following a V thru some sections would increase our lap time by 15 seconds...So, that lead to very close and questionable passes before those sections to keep from getting balked. I race to win and I will put myself and others at risk to do it..No apologies. I feel that if the Vs, Fs and 500s are paying their entry and are a National class then they deserve to run in a group that is safe for them...I don't care if two cars show up..run'em

[iamuwere]

Winged and non-winged need to be two groups. This includes FF that seems to like to stay with wings, but really should stay non-winged in groups.

jim

[jhenn4716]

It is a tough choice for any event organizer trying to accommodate everyone who shows up for a race weekend. With fewer drivers showing up at the track, there are less cars to make up the fields. If you don't have enough cars on a given weekend, some classes have to be combined. Is it preferred? Not really, but its the harsh reality of the times.

As a new driver I try to make it a point to watch my mirrors all the time. But that spec of color in my mirror going down the straight becomes an FA in seconds.

Until we get more cars on track (make that more Vee's) we will have to do our best with the situation at hand. It's always going to be a mixed group. Can't please all the people all the time.

[Westroc]

Unless I missed something I haven't seen any mention of the flagging at that corner or previous corners before the incident. I wasn't there. This is a more sensible area in my opinion to talk about than class structure where options are limited at best. Why can we not have better "enforcement" for flag conditions. I have brought this up before. It's not my pet topic. God bless the corner workers but until SCCA stops "noting" corner worker corner radio calls and does more than just acknowledge concerns guys, me, your son, will suffer. Drivers acknowledge flags and then change direction cause he's not "got there" and jack is done about it.

[Steve Davis]

Just a note, but BLUE FLAGS were almost non-existent this weekend. I was told that many of the normal corner worker group were at Daytona instead.

We could have used more. I'm pretty sure I recall seeing ONE blue flag going toward the hairpin on .... one of the days.

Steve, FV80

[Westroc]

Enough said!

[flat tappet]

put the F500 and FV with SRF because of low numbers from the F5 and FV. That is a better pairing than with faster open wheel cars. At least you can bounce off of the side of a SRF and no one goes air borne. BTW, I am sure that the CRB is not going to just change the verbiage in the GCR just because I asked for it.

Darryl........Not sure that SRF's can see our F500's well due to their deep front fenders........and our lack of height.

[Darryl Wills]

run with SRFs. I was told that the Southwest division has decided to run FVs and F500s with SRFs. I believe that is a really bad idea and will be at the next meeting to voice my concerns on the issue. These three classes should continue to run together as they have in our division for a loonnnggg time with no out of the ordinary issues.

[Darryl Wills]

running the small formula cars with SRFs..Some folks have expressed bad experiences with this grouping and I respect their perspective.

[flat tappet]

run with SRFs. I was told that the Southwest division has decided to run FVs and F500s with SRFs. I believe that is a really bad idea and will be at the next meeting to voice my concerns on the issue. These three classes should continue to run together as they have in our division for a loonnnggg time with no out of the ordinary issues.

We are losing NCF's from our FV/F500 run grp in NER for our NARRC Championsip. I believe they are going to be running with FF's, instead. Never thought that they were a problem!!

[Darryl Wills]

What is a NCF?

[budawe]

In 2011, the vee group protested the stewards and then went to the Court of Appeals to stop combining SRF with Vees with no success. While there are rules regarding class combination, it seems there isn't much taste for telling regions how to group cars. I wouldn't hold your breath for changes in the GCR. Everyone wants their own group and some even want their own class, so there's no way to make everybody happy. Just remember, like Steve said, FV is the 3rd most popular class and deserves a fair share of the track. Last time I checked, they pay the same entry fee as everyone.

FV has been combined nationally with FF for many years and the two classes work well together. Regionally, it's not been so successful but that's a driver issue. When you have a FF or CF running FV times, "there will be blood". SRF is simply a vision issue and yes, there is a distinct different driving style with fenders as well.

The key is the drivers envolved. Just like Mom said, we need to share. I've had solo cars, racing no one but themselves, dive into a cluster of cars and ruin a race. Just because you drive a very expensive car, does not entitle you to anything but higher racing bills.

The MAJORS is attempting to address this issue by concentrating classes and competition. In the long run, I think we have to accept the idea that class combinations are only going to get more demanding, not easier. If you want to spend a lot more money for single class racing, like some of the semi-pro series provide, then let your local regions know and they may be able to accomidate time for a premium cost.

[flat tappet]

What is a NCF?

Club Formula(older) Ford

[glenn cooper]

Wow, that whole combine V and SRF in the same group is hideous.
Let's take two of the top 3 classes by Nat #'s and make them run together - Genius!
NO WAY should SRF have to give up ANYTHING as they have done a pretty masterful job of having MASSIVE entries at just about all races I have been to.

I see V at the top of the Nat list too, just not so sure it's happening in the SE.

I'm guessing the V line down the straight and sweep to the outside then dive in is to get that archaic thing to turn in good?

Blue (flags) were definitely not seen much at Sebring the other day.

I remember the first time I ran in a session w/ V's, back when I bought my FC prior to conversion to FB.
It was at Rd Atlanta, and in the race I ran it up the inside of a couple of 'em into T6.
MUCH to my suprise they were going in pretty damned deep too.
They took evasive action and at impound after the race, Mr Davis broke it down forr me:
SD - I'm not sure if you know it or not, but the other V and myself had to take a ton of evasive action to prevent a sure crash as we were all goiing for the same spot.
Coop - Yeah man, I kinda saw that sorry, but I've never been on track w/ you guys before...
SD - While that may be true you have been racing for quite some time.

Pretty accurate assesment of the situation. I know when 'm wrong and that was one of those times! I listened, I learned, and I filed it away - FV's go deep!!

[S Lathrop]

FV are suprisingly quick in the turns. At the old Road Atlanta, when the bridge was a real turn, FV were the fastest cars of any formula cars. That includes FA. During one of the run offs, some one was recording speeds as the cars came under the bridge and FV were the tops.

[Daryl DeArman]

FV are suprisingly quick in the turns. At the old Road Atlanta, when the bridge was a real turn, FV were the fastest cars of any formula cars. That includes FA. During one of the run offs, some one was recording speeds as the cars came under the bridge and FV were the tops.

That's because when the rest of you are busy doing racing stuff, like braking, shifting and accelerating all we are doing is holding our foot down and giving as little steering input as possible. We don't have as much going on and are therefore less likely to make a mistake.

[glenn cooper]

FV are suprisingly quick in the turns. At the old Road Atlanta, when the bridge was a real turn, FV were the fastest cars of any formula cars. That includes FA. During one of the run offs, some one was recording speeds as the cars came under the bridge and FV were the tops.

I so wanna call BS on this, but I will instead go with "All other Formula car classes that year musta been filled with fat slow ass'd newbs".

[Steve Davis]

I so wanna call BS on this, but I will instead go with "All other Formula car classes that year musta been filled with fat slow ass'd newbs".

FWIW - I ran FV and FC 'concurrently' in 1993 and compared MPH in both cars at the bridge on several occasions. Although I was faster in the FC, it wasn't much. ~2 MPH as I recall at the slowest point. Still pretty amazing considering the difference in tire patch and suspension. I was ZERO'd on wing, so could have possibly elevated the FC speed by adding a bunch of wing .. but it would have led to a slower lap! (and I was at the pointy end of the field in both cars).

Steve, FV80

[glenn cooper]

You guys had data back then?

I've never known Rd Atl to be a zero downforce track - my bet is you'da had a quicker lap w/ more than zero wing.

[DanW]

I so wanna call BS on this, but I will instead go with "All other Formula car classes that year musta been filled with fat slow ass'd newbs".

I resemble that remark!

[Gordy]

I race to win and I will put myself and others at risk to do it..No apologies.

Am I reading this right ?

[Darryl Wills]

Anytime we run inches apart, wheel to wheel we are putting each other at risk...that is what we do. I make that statement to illustrate a point that we had better match up the cars properly and don't assume that race car drivers can or will provide ample room to avoid any contact.

[S Lathrop]

I so wanna call BS on this, but I will instead go with "All other Formula car classes that year musta been filled with fat slow ass'd newbs".

Notice that I did not tell you the decade. It was before ground effect cars were common. Late '70's and early 80's. And the numbers were for a car just coming into view.

The FV is enough smaller that it can make a significant increase in the radius of the trun. Also a FV had less air time at that trun. So getting the car back on the track was much less of a chore. As such you could cross the top of the hill at a higher speed.


Also there were several evolutions of that corner. The earliest was for sure the worst. That was before you could land in the pit lane and drive back to the track.

[Steve Davis]

You guys had data back then?

I've never known Rd Atl to be a zero downforce track - my bet is you'da had a quicker lap w/ more than zero wing.

Yes - I had early versions of a data system in both cars (I LIVE on the cutting edge :-) ). It wasn't NEARLY as sophisticated as what we have now (NO MAPPING at all - not even G's), but it gathered MPH and RPM data and we could eventually figure out where we were on the track .

Thinking about it again ... I was running zero wing in the REAR and as much as I could get on the front. The car tended to push quite a bit ('89 VD). I ran a '93 VD at the Runoffs and it was probably a bit faster, but I didn't have data in it.

Steve, FV80

[Paul LeCain]

When I drove FA, and now that my son does, the first thing we do at a test day or practice with much slower cars is to tell the drivers of those cars:

"Don't try to help me. Just drive your normal line. I'll find a way by you."

[Amon]

Good advise Paul!!

Mark

92' Protoform P-1 FV

[Daryl DeArman]

"Don't try to help me. Just drive your normal line. I'll find a way by you."

Exactly.

My response is usually something like "Absoultely understand. When you pass me, keep in mind this turd doesn't stop too well. Please don't chop across my nose and park."

[SteveG]

"Don't try to help me. Just drive your normal line. I'll find a way by you."

That's what they/we used to drill into the brains of SCCA driver school students...
We had a standard opening at the beginning of every single classroom and off-track session:

"Repeat after me -"
"Watch the Flags"
"Watch your mirrors"
"Drive your line, the other driver will find a way around you"

The students used to get it and remember it, today, not so much.
One of the many reasons I retired from/quit SCCA.

Steve

[budawe]

I'm afraid Steve G. is right. We once had the luxury of have two weekends for school and spent a lot of time on track with our students. Now we can barely afford one weekend and many regions tend to imitate pro schools to compete and emphasize lines and going fast. All the track awareness and courtesy has kinda been forgotten. Sorta like risking your fellow competitors safety to win. I was taught to take all the chances I wanted as long as it didn't effect the safety of others. That's why I qualify alone. But I guess the "boys have at it" mentality has infiltrated road racing as well.