http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrvkB3pK8lgOriginally Posted by budawe
When I first watched this movie, I thought it was a parody.. Then I moved to North America :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrvkB3pK8lg
When I first watched this movie, I thought it was a parody.. Then I moved to North America :P
Driving like this should take care of the overtaking issues.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...IV+speed+racer
Having been through an SCCA school not that long ago I can attest that they still teach that approach. Hold your line and the faster car will get around you. But as others have mentioned above, many drivers (other classes) don't always anticipate what a vee can do in a corner.
Until we can get more vee's on track this will always be a problem. Just have to watch your mirrors and keep moving.
Reinventing the world, one wheel at a time.
OK - I can't resist. THIS is what "driving your own line" gets you these days.
https://vimeo.com/57066404
If "driving your own line" and waiting were good enough, then we would not NEED mirrors ... would we ??
However, after watching this video many times, I can see a larger part of the issue now. For all the world, it LOOKS like there is plenty of room on the inside of Lisa as the FM approaches - remember he's only been behind her for about 5 seconds .. and never through this corner before.
I don't have the answer, but I can tell you (and so can JR2) that it's DANGEROUS out there for all of us...
Steve, FV80
Why is that particular incident a FM v. FV grouping problem and not some other factor(s)?
Because the closing rates are SO high that the lead car rarely gets to see the closing car BEFORE the incident.
There ARE, of course, other factors involved, but we *HAVE* to deal with them in the mixed groups we have today...
Unless you have some 'factor' in mind that I don't see .... that *CAN* be solved.. ??
Steve, FV80
I've only looked at the video twice, but it just looked like a badly calculated dive bomb. Was he even turning by the time they hit? It kinda looks like he assumed she'd be going through the corner at a proportional speed and he went into the corner faster than HE would have liked.
In a practice day at Lime Rock, about 20 years ago, I went into West Bend and looked in my mirrors, thought I saw a glint of something.
Going down the hill I looked and it was like something coming out of hyperspace. I left exactly one car width at the apex of the down hill and the ATLANTIC car took it! About a 40 mph difference at speed at the fastest turn on the track - and it was a practice day. I never found out who it was - at that time I was young and probably figured that is how you drive, but since most of us need to go back to work the next day, maybe we all need to dial it back a bit.
For those in faster cars, here is what it looks like when you are not the fastest class on the track - I was waving more than the Queen at her Jubilee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBEde2kLuQA
ChrisZ
Chris,
Thanks for posting that .. it does go to show that Vee drivers are not as bad as some might think. You did a fantastic job of competing for position WHILE watching your mirrors and pointing cars by at all possible opportunities.
I don't see how anyone could expect any more than that...
I can also see with the closing rates, how the TINIEST miscalculation on your part could lead to MUCH GRIEF. You must have PRETTY BIG mirrors. (and maybe, a SONAR alert?)
Great job!
I sure wish I could see as far BEHIND me as I can see in front....
Steve, FV80
Lisa obviously didn't see the dive bomb move by the FM...there was room if he had of powered threw the corner a little better IMHO. Steve if you look at all videos all cars were taking the wide line threw turn 16 heading outside onto the concrete & back inside.
With all that said at the point Lisa was at she would have been paying attention to the apex of the corner & wouldn't be looking in her mirrors when she turned in.
It really is tough as the FM is racing as well & came up upon the FV at a bad spot. Go for it & risk what happened or sit back & wait & give up a second at least per lap but likely more.
This won't go away with mixed class racing unfortunately. There isn't much options if you run FV's. In FF & FC amongst others there are other options thankfully.
Steve Bamford
Agreed.. she was somewhat busy at the time.
Agreed... ALL cars pretty much take the same wide line at that point on the track.
Yes.. but what actually DID happen was MUCH worse than giving up a second (or even THREE) where the following 'in class' competitor had NO WAY of passing anyway.. except maybe on exit (as he DID after the contact).
I'm glad that you say that. That is my entire point. *WE* (the SLOWEST cars) have no options (and "less than ideal" mirrors). The overtaking car has LOTS of options... At least one of them is to DELAY the pass till the exit of the turn - in anything other than a high speed sweeper, there is little risk of him being passed by an in class competitor behind him.
Steve, FV80
But there is risk of him being passed on the straight where possibly another FM has a 5 mph better exit from the turn due to no traffic & being passed on the straight. Or potentially he is chasing down a competitor a few seconds ahead. Anyway you look at it this still comes down to mixed class racing as the main issue which won't go away.
I was leading Saturday & drafted by on the back straight by other FF's. Coming along the front straight we were pretty much nose to tail & a FM went up the inside of turn one as he had more straight line speed then me. He separated myself from the others as i gave room but he was much slower threw 2 -5...I wasn't happy about it but had to realize that is what happens in mixed class racing. I was using my mirrors otherwise there would have been a similar issue in turn one...& yes I was busy as well.
Steve Bamford
Steve,Chris,
Thanks for posting that .. it does go to show that Vee drivers are not as bad as some might think. You did a fantastic job of competing for position WHILE watching your mirrors and pointing cars by at all possible opportunities.
I don't see how anyone could expect any more than that...
I can also see with the closing rates, how the TINIEST miscalculation on your part could lead to MUCH GRIEF. You must have PRETTY BIG mirrors
Great job!
I sure wish I could see as far BEHIND me as I can see in front....
Steve, FV80
Lime Rock is not the worst track as you can have good sight lines behind you and the corner workers are pretty good with blue flags. Plus I grew up in days before arm restraints and when waving cars by was taught in schools. Did it hurt my race - yes- but in theory it affects everyone equally. The worst part was losing three laps. In the 70's we ran with DSR and even though there was only two of them, we might lose three or four Laps at a National. Until their tires come up, we can run with the FF in the turns, but once we hit the straight......
At least the 500s don't screw us up like they did. You could loose 4 seconds a lap following them. Now point by and they are gone.
ChrisZ
PS You learn a lot of new lines like that.
Yes .. and YOU finished the race
Steve, FV80
on any track with a high speed turn entering a long straight once faster classes start streaming through the slower car should not assume a normal racing line and own the apex if it is pack racing the faster car must give way if not a car width off should be expected by the slower car to not ruin their race or others
track awareness also includes a feel about faster cars coming through the only worst case to catch a v at sebring is apex 17 and 1
There's a crash in the vid link? Di-in' see one...
17 & 1 have a lot more room then 16 does.
Steve Bamford
not a lot more room for error, 16 wreck is a wreck usual low impact, 17 or 1 is usually big damage or as happened last weekend in 13 with JR impact towards a barrier is always worst than impact towards an open field,
Lots of passes happened in 17 & 1 safely, I will bet triple the amount that happened in 16 due to available room. If cars do touch in 1 or 17 the likelihood for a worse outcome is greater I will agree to that.
My comment was directed at yours about 17 & 1 being worse places to catch a FV at Sebring. I would rather catch & attempt to pass a FV in 1 or 17 then 16 anyday. 16 is not really a passing corner where the other definitely are with lots more room inside or outside, take your pick. You can go three wide in 17 rather safely if everyone has their heads about them...2 wide easily in turn 1. Can't say 2 wide really works in 16.
What happened to JR2 was the result of a car abruptly altering his line. Whether JR2 was a FF or FV he would have made impact passing due to the car moving into his path IMO.
Steve Bamford
I don't know what Lisa saw. I don't know what the FM driver saw. I can assume, but you know what that usually causes.
In my opinion the closing rates are huge in lots of places at lots of tracks; at the point of contact and the second or two prior to turn-in it wasn't much different than a typical lead car lapping a car in its' own class.
Thanks for posting the video Steve, feel bad for Lisa on that!
This happens every weekend it seems like... sometimes a car goes off, sometimes its just a close call but it is ridiculous.
I have yet to see a faster class hit a vee, or get hit by a vee and say I am sorry I should have waited until the exit to pass you.... I have plenty of power to get by you on the straight. Just because the vees are on the low end of power has nothing to do with the driving abilities of anyone in the class. Although it always seems to be the vees fault according to everyone else.
It gets very old very quick racing and watching your mirrors continuously as to not ruin another classes race. There are plenty of times I have sacrificed my position on track as to let a faster class by.
The differences are TWO from my perspective...
When lapping a slow Vee, the Vee driver has a MUCH better understanding of the car ahead and what he might do (usually KNOWS the driver).
Also, the Vee driver does not have "nearly unbounded acceleration" or "available braking power" with which to "jump" into an existing opening.
So the vee driver (usually) waits .. UNLESS he gets a 'POINT'.
Steve, FV80
Agreed on both points. I know that the responsibility lies on the overtaking driver....blah, blah, blah....that doesn't mean the driver being passed didn't contribute to the incident. It's one of those things where given only two choices; I'd rather be wrong and continue to race, than be right and be in the back of an ambulance.
Yes. 'POINT BYs' technically minimize the issue - but only if the fast guys DON'T go by if you don't point ... and that's just NOT happening .. at all. Sebring is 'really busy' during most of the track and I just CAN'T take a hand off the wheel to point - even if I DO see the car in my mirror. But in most cases, by the time I see the car in my mirror, there isn't even enough TIME to get my hand off the wheel and into the air before the car has already gotten beside me - often on the OTHER side from the one I would point to.
Steve, FV80
Point bys are a courtesy, not granting permission.
But they sure provide the overtaking driver with a sense of relief, because they now know the driver being overtaken has spotted them with that acknowledgement!
Mark
Not sure what you mean ... when *I* point someone by.. I *AM* granting PERMISSION for them to dive inside of me or ...whatever - essentially. What I CANNOT do is REFUSE to allow them to pass by NOT pointing.
Steve, FV80
Southwest Division
is not combining SRF, FV and F500 as previously reported...Thank Goodness for that.
The blame for the Sebring incident rests squarely on the individual(s) that grouped the FMs with the FVs. As stated in the GCR, SCCA prefers that FVs should not be grouped in a race group with any other winged open wheel car...The home office obviously sees the danger in this arrangement but comes short of explicitly prohibiting it.
BTW, the FEs are with the FVs this weekend..Last year I witnessed 2 take downs of FVs by FEs and remember hearing of a third. THIS DOES NOT WORK!!! no matter how polite and courteous drivers try to be.
Viva la revolution...write to the CRB requesting the wording changed from "preferable not to" to "prohibited to" adding wing things to Vs.
Maybe I'm losing the context with the lack of punctuation, but.. What?! A pass from a faster car on a slower car works the same as a pass with two similar cars. If I'm at the turn in point before you are, that's my apex.
The responsibility has to fall on the overtaking driver to go around the slower car. If people are good enough to be leading a race within their own class and can't safely go around a 55hp vee, you really have to wonder. You can pass a vee on 95% of the race track at will. Do not dive bomb a vee, it will end badly sooner than you think.
A vee will corner at 1.6g. From the turn in point to the moment you get on the gas at the apex, a vee is just as fast as most cars. Yeah, yeah, the winged cars CAN be faster. but probably not when you're dive bombing someone on the inside and missing your braking marker by 15 feet.
If we start asking slower cars to change their line to let people pass, can you guess what's going to happen? We need people to be predictable and doing whatever they do all the time, every time. If the car ahead of you starts trying to guess where you're going to go and adjusting his line accordingly, things are going to go horribly wrong.
I believe that ALL the responsibility should belong to the overtaking driver. The driver being overtaken has the reponsibility of holding his line. If the overtaking driver wants to risk taking himself out along with others then the fault lies on him. How much time is he exactly going to lose by holding back until he feels it is safe to pass. Yes it takes away the fun by holding himself back but in the end he will end up with a less stressful race. To the faster cars, it is not their fault,( the vees ) got grouped together.
This weekend at PBIR we have FE's with the FV's yet we have FC's in a different run group...I don't get that unless it is car count.
PBIR is a much shorter track then Sebring but lots of slow corners. I am sure the FV's will be being passed all race long & likely only get a few clean laps.
Steve Bamford
Gotcha, it's a semantics thing. When I point someone by, all I am doing is letting them know that I see them, I know they are getting ready to pass and that I don't plan on doing something stupid to interfere. If they don't see a point by, they can do whatever they want, just know that I am probably not expecting/anticipating the pass, adjust your risk/reward calculator appropriately.Not sure what you mean ... when *I* point someone by.. I *AM* granting PERMISSION for them to dive inside of me or ...whatever - essentially. What I CANNOT do is REFUSE to allow them to pass by NOT pointing
Very courteous driving for sure. Doubt I would have given the other vee that point if he was passing for position though....
Add FV pro racing to Rands series.
good bye scca and the absurd run groupings.
next caller please!!!!!
If you could get 24 plus cars out every event I am pretty sure they could make it happen.
Steve Bamford
Here in the Northeast we get 10-16 cars alone for a Glen regional, and even further up the NE way, 24 car regionals are pretty easy to do (especially if they would not conflict New Hampshire with the Glen).
I have a hard time believing a new ProVee series would not work again.
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
Chris, Thanks for the wave by at the downhill just in case you didn't see me give you the "thank you wave" back at the time.
For those in faster cars, here is what it looks like when you are not the fastest class on the track - I was waving more than the Queen at her Jubilee.
[URL
I will say that the NE F/V guys are some of the best guys I have shared the track with in my 28 years racing. It seems like every single one of them has an eye in the back of their head.
Mike
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
A solution I was thinking about, but didn't want to mention and get accused of SCCA bashing. Some seem to have pretty thin skin or panties that bunch easily.
Even if you can't get another series to give you your own run groups, concentrate your FV efforts/entries so that SCCA can give you your own run group...or at the very least one less alphabet soup like.
Mike, we spoke after the race and I appreciated the kind words. Having worked with FF guys for most of my Skip Barber employment, there was time when I knew everyone in FF. Now not so much, although it is always good know the people in your run group. Whether FF or 500, I always try to meet these people in the paddock before I meet them on the track. Once you put a face with the car, you do treat people differently.
Since it is not our choice to be on the track at the same time, there is no reason we cannot help each other. Someday I might need a draft and you might need a block thrown
Chris Z
PS Hand signals do work both ways. Lately in racing only the one finger salute is seen but when I grew up there was a lot more back and forth communicating.
bright colors
I have spent a lot of years racing a FF in run groups with FA FC CSR etc. One thing drivers need to do is paint their cars bright colors. Black or natural carbon fiber bodywork may look cool in the paddock but to a slower class driver it might as well be a stealth fighter. Bright colors really make a big difference in the mirrors.
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