Cars that have carbon bodies, do not like to add weight and paint is weight.
Cars that have carbon bodies, do not like to add weight and paint is weight.
I'm painting the Reynard in Fluorescent colors !
"An analog man living in a digital world"
6.11. RULES OF THE ROAD
6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct
A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on
the race track.
B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally
defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under
racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close
quarters.
C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room.
Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of
another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as
an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.
D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another
car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible
to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the
overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or
who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be
black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7
Originally Posted by Chuck Wilson
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
Yep
That's why our Atlantic is refrigerator white.
I'm with Chuck on this one
I know the rules, but the overtaking driver is really the one who has to control the passing maneuver. Those rules seem more aimed at cars/drivers with similar speeds racing each other, not cars with hugely varying speeds that this thread is discussing.
Is that what you're going to argue in front of the SOM's?
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
That's why man invented vinyl!
How is this quantifiable?
Seems like one of those "If in doubt, don't" type rules.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Zero sum?
Many on this topic want to make this a zero sum game and it is not. There is gray area involved in any pass under braking or into a corner.
The overtaking driver initially has full responsibility. Is this a safe pass? Can I go really deep and maintain track position? Will it cost me more on exit to make it now? Whatever...
But once the decision is made and drivers are next to each other, the responsibility shifts to a shared responsibility. The slower car cannot crash down on the faster car. The faster car cannot banzai in so much that he is forced out into the slower car. Etc, etc....
But (hopefully) everyone here knows this. It still does not answer questions involving Vees and FM's. That grouping is just dumb. To me, both the vee drivers and FM drivers should have protested the stewards. Can anyone who participated in that race honestly say they didn't see this coming? The Stewards should have seen it, too.
Truer words...
Absolutely. If in doubt, don't try the pass.
The corollary is "Once you've decided to make the pass, do it."
Even street driving, how much do you like someone who hangs on your rear quarter-panel?
I didn't say you shouldn't be aggressive or forceful. Just be careful with your aggression.
Paul,
My point is, how can it be proven if (or if not) the driver being passed is using his mirror(s). The guy being passed is not attempting the pass.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
You can't. But that's your point. Even if one was going to argue that Lisa wasn't using her mirrors because if she was she wouldn't have turned into the FM's path; it's quite possible (I believe fairly likely) that Lisa did see the FM in her mirrors. Isn't it possible that she was at the latest point she could turn in and thought the FM was also going to turn in at the same time or continue to brake and fall in behind as the pass wasn't completed?
These two statements (bolded) seem to be in agreement that the car being overtaken has the responsibility to hold their line - but that would appear to be the end of their responsibility.
D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible
to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the
overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or
who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be
black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7I think that I would argue would be that taking any line other than the expected racing line would be a violation of section 6.11.1.C - the bolded part above.
The passing car should know the line, and should be expecting the slower car to take that line.
I recall one near-incident many years ago when I gave a point-by to a faster car on the right (the preferred line), then slowly drifted left to give room. The other driver decided to go by on the left, and ended up two wheels off. No contact, damage or any other major bad outcome, but the other driver was very upset that I had shifted my line, even though I was doing it to give him room. Ever since then, I have always stuck to the basic premise of "hold your line and speed, and let the faster car find the safe way around".
Put another way, Peter, if two FAs decide to go by on either side of me and contact ensues, will I be in better shape with the SOMs if I hold my line, or if I move to make some attempt at an evasive maneuver?
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
I had an F4 driver write a complaint to the steward in 2011,I went to see the steward having no idea what for.I was told At the end of the backstraight(mosport) I had blocked him,I told the steward there was TWO F4s coming behind me side by side and I held my line and would obviously get in the way of one of them,I also told him i could show him my video footage that shows me clearly looking in my mirrors a lot of the time(Im slow).I was told Ok off you go just keep your eye on your mirrors etc,months later watching my video I see as I come off the track the said driver is standing shaking his fist at me,I didnt notice at the time.Beginning of 2012 season I went for a liitle chat and told him i had it on video him shaking his fist at me..I calmly told him do that again and prepare to face the consequences,he apologised..One can only do ones best to get out of the way of faster cars,sometimes its easy other times its not, its 90%onus on the overtaking driver,fortunatly in F1200 we run on our own most of the time
It would be nice to have our own run groups or for the club to hold a % rule for grouping but I doubt that this will ever happen under the current format. Therefor we have to work this out together so we can compete as safely as possible. Being aware of whats in your mirrors, what flags are being waved, using hand signals and using good judgment are the keys to rolling back into the paddock under power. To me the hand signal is the best way to communicate between drivers - if I don't see one I know the risk is mine, so I have to rely on my best judgment of predicting the line the driver will take and the closing rate of speed.
Understanding the performance and racing characteristics of the car or cars being overtaken is important to judge if a pass should be attempted or not - this only comes with experience. One common cause of dangerous passes is from a driver being pressured from a trailing car and trying to maintain or gain an advantage. A driver should also use extreme caution when passing cars racing in packs, it's not unusual for a car to pop out of a draft just as an overtaking driver is preparing to pass. Everyone must consider safety before position at all times.
Regarding Sebring: JR's incident would not have happened if the V driver had been running the side of the straight instead of a point where he could have been passed on either side. Also IMO the Mazda driver was 100% at fault in the incident with Lisa, even if she did see him after turn 15, where was she to go - out in the grass on exit to give him room?
JB
22 years of racing and still learning
I agree, Jason. I should also point out, that if the 'faster classes' can't learn how to play with FVees, they MIGHT end up in the other open wheel group running with Atlantics and CSRs - which do you prefer? I know that *I* would certainly prefer to be the 'fastest class on track' instead of the SLOWEST - it sure would make MY life a lot easier......I know the risk is mine, so I have to rely on my best judgment of predicting the line the driver will take and the closing rate of speed.
Understanding the performance and racing characteristics of the car or cars being overtaken is important to judge if a pass should be attempted or not - this only comes with experience. One common cause of dangerous passes is from a driver being pressured from a trailing car and trying to maintain or gain an advantage. A driver should also use extreme caution when passing cars racing in packs, it's not unusual for a car to pop out of a draft just as an overtaking driver is preparing to pass. Everyone must consider safety before position at all times.
Regarding Sebring: JR's incident would not have happened if the V driver had been running the side of the straight instead of a point where he could have been passed on either side. Also IMO the Mazda driver was 100% at fault in the incident with Lisa, even if she did see him after turn 15, where was she to go - out in the grass on exit to give him room?
JB
22 years of racing and still learning
As for the vee driver being on the side of the straight instead of the middle... the turns there (and everywhere) alternate - first you are on the left, then on the right. It is quite impossible to be on the "correct side" of each turn without crossing across the track. I still don't know exactly where the contact occurred, but you shouldn't expect the vees to stay on the same side all the way around the track...
I'd love to see the groupings change, but the proliferation of classes is not going to allow that to happen. I think some consideration from the faster classes would allow us all to survive.. and possibly even ENJOY racing again. Giving up a couple of seconds in a turn to allow you to pass is something I do ALL THE TIME when faster classes come through ... *IF* I see you coming and I have the TIME to do it. However, if I'm ALREADY braking at Max - I can't slow down any faster to allow you to take the apex. If I DO have time, I'll POINT you to the apex and expect you to take it. If I don't point you by, I'm planning to turn to the apex myself at my appointed time - like Lisa did.
I STRONGLY REQUEST that you guys consider NOT trying to take advantage if a competitor ahead of you decides to WAIT and pass on exit rather than diving in. In our class, as a general rule (as long as it's not the LAST lap) we (at least *I*) 'stay in line' if the leader slows a bit to allow a faster car through - trying to take advantage of that situation will only lead to disaster and it's JUST NOT WORTH THE RISK. I know that NOT TAKING ADVANTAGE OF AN OPPORTUNITY sounds like blasphemy, but I would rather be running at the finish ... even not win... than CRASH my car... in which case I STILL CAN'T WIN (*AND* it costs me MORE $$$$ and WORK).
Steve, FV80
Steve, it has been written here or in another thread that the FV in question had been driving in the middle of the track throught the weekend. He did not have awareness of other cars & ran a FM nearly into the wall on the front straight & tangled with a FF both in qualifying.
Where the accident happened was between turn 14 & 15 which is a flat slight corner. He should have maintained his line or been moving to the inside of the corner not to the outside where he moved into JR2's line. I can only imagine he altered his line as he was likely surprised when I passed him on the inside of the straight well before the turn in point & there was lots of room in between my car & his.
Was I supposed to wait for a point by traveling probably 20 plus mph faster? This was the third or fourth lap & we were the third & forth place FF's. The first two FF's & probably all the FM's had already past him so he should have been aware other cars were coming.
I write all this because I was not going to slow down & wait for a point by on the straight by someone who is not paying attention. I made a safe pass & JR2 would have if the FV driver didn't alter his line so abruptly.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 01.13.13 at 11:33 AM.
Steve Bamford
Steve,
Just so I'll know what we're talking about... MY understanding was that the incident was "around" T15 - not 13 - 13 is certainly NOT a 'flat slight corner', so we are not talking about the same turn (at least according to the map above).
That said - assuming you meant T14, No - I would not expect you to wait if there was adequate room and you could safely execute a pass (I got passed SEVERAL times when I didn't have the opportunity to point and there was plenty of room). My only real issue is DIVE BOMBS at turn-in to tight apexes. My braking distance is probably twice what yours is despite it coming from a lower speed - there were several times when someone (not always FM) dove inside of me and was NOT clear of me before my turn in spot (T7, 10 and 13 as well as T15 and 16). If you can clear me by my turn in, I'm not nearly as concerned .. but when you can't, I'm left with no place to go except off the track, or at least WAY off line... or hit you (NOT intentionally).
For example...The FM that hit Lisa passed me cleanly into T15 (even though I didn't have enough time to point). The 2nd car elected to wait (thanks, Bob). That second car went by me on T15 exit and ... subsequently found a nice clear place to go at 16 since the first FM took both himself and the lead Vee out. If the 1st FM had followed Lisa through, BOTH FM's would have ended up in the same positions they were in prior to T15.... and so would the Vees.
That would seem like a win-win to me.
Steve, FV80
Thanks Steve, Between 14 prior to 15, I will correct my post from turn 13.
Steve Bamford
I've been watching this with thread and honestly I'm not convinced that it is all on the overtaking car. The car being overtaken needs to be aware and consistent in their racing line. Thus giving the faster cars a pattern to plan their pass. One un-attentive driver can mess up everyone's day, BUT you will have that in a club that has a mixture of experience and maturity levels.
I for one would love to have truck mirrors when grouped with faster cars. In my school our race group was "all formula and sports racers", it was a jolt when the rookie Atlantic drivers would pass you and you could feel the draft try to pull you out of the seat.
Bottom line we all have a vested interest in making this work. It's a give and take. Give room and take interest in keeping everyone safe.
JMHO
G.
G. Brian Metcalf
72 AutoD MK4
1991 Mysterian M2
2014 ALR73 FV/FST
To set the record straight
The contact was right front wheel(FV) to left front wheel(FM)...Sounds like a racing incident. Could Stuart have turned in earlier, maybe, could Lisa have turned in later, maybe. Fact is, I would have attempted that pass given the same circumstance. Additionally, it seems that Robert passed Steve in the exact spot that Stuart and Lisa get together. So what's the problem?
The OP was to express the need to protect the smaller Vs and 500s. Grouping them with larger winged cars is not safe because racing incidents will happen...as exhaustively illustrated.
FWIW, Group 2 (FE,FF,F5,FV,S2) at PBIR this weekend had two 23 lap races, 2 25 minute and 2 20 minute qualifying sessions, and we had no red/black/double yellow flags. Very few local yellows. Compare that to the previous weekend, and I think the real difference is the super tour / major weekend vs a rational weekend. a) people were just too wired up at Sebring, and b) the run group was too big to be safe. My
Chris
I broke my back at the half-way point between T2 and T3 at Mosport a number of years ago. The Vee driver that put me over the wall turned into me as I was passing him on the outside (driver's left) out of T2. This guy saw me,. locked eyes with me, and turned into me. Classic case of visual tracking. He was a newby and it was his second race. Wrote my car off, wrote off my season (was leading in points) and ended my open wheel career. For him, he ran the car one more race, wrecked another group of cars, then "retired".I had an F4 driver write a complaint to the steward in 2011,I went to see the steward having no idea what for.I was told At the end of the backstraight(mosport) I had blocked him,I told the steward there was TWO F4s coming behind me side by side and I held my line and would obviously get in the way of one of them,I also told him i could show him my video footage that shows me clearly looking in my mirrors a lot of the time(Im slow).I was told Ok off you go just keep your eye on your mirrors etc,months later watching my video I see as I come off the track the said driver is standing shaking his fist at me,I didnt notice at the time.Beginning of 2012 season I went for a liitle chat and told him i had it on video him shaking his fist at me..I calmly told him do that again and prepare to face the consequences,he apologised..One can only do ones best to get out of the way of faster cars,sometimes its easy other times its not, its 90%onus on the overtaking driver,fortunatly in F1200 we run on our own most of the time
The closing rates in these dissimilar cars is way too high. I chose to pass a much slower car at a point half way between two corners, off the line....not much more I could have done. The guy just did not see me, made a dumb move, and I ended up on/over the wall. The Vee continued on his merry way, while I was off to a long hospital stay, ending in back surgery and permanent nerve damage to my right leg.
I cannot imaging how stressful it must be trying to run your race, concentrate on your lines, passing and drafting that is so important in FV, then have to worry about FE's FM's Atlantics, etc.....it CANNOT be very fulfilling, let alone fun to drive in events like that.
The culprit is not Vee drivers. The guy who wrote me off would have done the same dumb-ass move if he'd been in something else; he just was not up to the challenge.
IMHO something similar to a 110 percent rule could be applied. This would force race organizers into making run groups that accommodated the overriding requirement to make safety the number one priority; something I have questioned when I read these posts. I don't mean that an individual who qualifies outside of the percent rule (whatever it is) would be excluded, more that the average qualifying time of the group of cars would have to be within 110 percent, or 115 percent, or whatever is decided.
Do you follow me?
Of course, I already know that any race organization would never ascribe to this thinking; a main concern for them is that, once a rule like this were established, they would always have to follow it. If they did not, and anything unfortunate did occur, they could be held liable.
The problem is that something needs to be done. Every few months we have a flurry of posts about this problem, often triggered by a (predictable) collision.
Tom Owen
Owner - Browns Lane and Racelaminates.com
My opinion
Here is my opinion on the matter.
Link: http://pinkertonautosport.com/2013/0...ool-in-racing/
Mixed Classes
Mixing classes is dangerous. Period. It won't go away so everyone needs to play nice. The best drivers to mix in with Vees are those that have driven a vee and understand our performance envelope. We are so underpowered we depend on momentum and the draft and if we lose a corner waiting or waiving we're screwed. It is no fun racing the mirrors. There will always be idiots in every class, but unfortunately the GCR has no moron/idiot provisions. I looked at the GCR and couldn't find anything about a percentage rule and I wonder if there is a provision that allows a restriction on qualifying in race supps.
Scary is someone saying thay have no problem putting themselves and others in harms way. Racing is inherintly dangerous which is OK. We all know the risks...but anyone that does it on purpose is dumb and not acceptable.
In 2009 we did the National at Sebring plus the Friday test day and in our run group were C & D sports racers. The closing rates there were terrifying. There was a drivers meeting and a few C & D drivers wanted the Vees out of the run group because we were so slow and interferring with their laps. Since we paid the same fees to run the test day were were told to just becareful. Mixing of classes will continue until someone gets hurt...
Al
Pinky
please try to get your facts straightened out in your blog. Lisa was tagged by the second place FM, not the leader. The leader had already gone though several seconds before so the additional two FMs coming up shortly afterward should not have been a surprise to her. I see this as a racing incident. The best solution would be not to mix these classes.
I have been following this thread both as a BOD member and as a long time vee driver. I will choose not to try to access blame in this incident. I have never run the track and I wasn't there. But I do have a couple of thoughts.
I did get lapped at Cal Speedway by a FA in my little vee once, and only "God and the laundry lady," knew how startled I was. I think the closing speed was around 60 mph and mirrors don't work very well on ovals. I have had close calls and some car totaling contact, so I appreciate how frustrating class groupings can be.
What we all have to remember is that class combinations are here to stay and while we all would like to put more restrictions on how they're done, it's really not realistic. There's only so much time in the day and so many entries to find a group to race in. The GCR does set certain rules but as we learned with Vees and SRF, it's up to the local regions and race chairs to manage groupings the best way that fits their areas. If you have serious problems with your group, talk to the Chief steward, while there may not be much they can do on the spot to change groupings, ask for a driver's meeting to make sure everyone in the group is on the same page. In a broader sense, have your class contact the race chair or whoever does the schedules and ask for changes. Collectively, it can make a difference in the future.
Obviously, the best and only way to reduce what classes you run with is to either get more entries in your class, or eliminate some classes. Some argue that there are too many formula classes. It's obvious to me that most of us don't agree and we all remember what happened last year when there was a discussion about merging FM & FE. So, where does that leave us?
My personal feelings is that it's up to the faster cars to be patient. They have many more options, like superior hp, to be a bit more selective about making passes. A quick over/under is a piece of cake when you have 60 hp on the car in front.
I have learned to compensate for being lapped to my advantage and like all racing conditions, a good driver should try to safely leverage events during a race.
Be safe out there, have a great 2013 season.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
Sure, mixing vees with most other classes isn't ideal. But remember that vees are still way up there on the list of best attended classes. We all pay the same to play, so keep that in mind before you make requests you may regret!
Like Steve said a few posts ago, I'd much rather be the faster class on track. I'd rather have to deal with lapping cars with 60hp less than me, than having to deal with being lapped by FB/FA/DSR, etc.
I have been following this thread with great interest
Being a Vee driver , I noticed that the Vee driver
Was said to have been driving and not looking in his
Mirrors earlier In the event. My question if this is the case
Why wasn't a protest logged or report from corner workers
Given to race Stewart
Just my 2 cents
When speaking with one of the drivers after the race that mentioned he had issues with this driver in quali the question was asked did they report him to the Stewards...the answer was no. Not many people want to file a formal cimplaintam. Yes there are obvious reasons how this may have avoided a bad incident but hindsight is 20/20.
Steve Bamford
This thread involves more than 1 FV and more than 1 incident. Might be helpful to identify which incident or FV you are referring to.
Sorry Daryl
To clarify I was referring to JR"s incident. As Steve mentioned hindsight is 20/20.
What I wanted to stress is that with mixed grids it is our responsiblity as competitors
to use the GCR to improve the safety of our events . I was happy to hear that JR
was ok .
For clarification, JRII states in his thread that his incident prior to T13.
There are photos of this incident on JRII's thread.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56197
Buildings can be seen in the background of photo titled Sebring1. These buildings are outside the track between T9 and T10. The photographer was standing at the exit of T11.
That doesn't make sense to me according to the track map Steve Davis posted above. According to the map the accident happened just prior to turn 15 & that is what I recall. After turn 13 there are two slight flat left handers. The track map however only shows one left hander, both are taken flat. It was just prior to the 2nd left hander where contact was made. In JRII's pics you can see me on the inside on the curbing.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 01.15.13 at 12:09 PM.
Steve Bamford
I have going to Sebring for over 30 years. Those buildings have always been between 9 and 10. One gets to them by traveling NE, past the main entrance to the track on Airport Access Road. The building are located under the Compass Rose between T9 and T10 on the map of the course.
If that photo was shot at 15 the only thing in the background would be airport operations, as T15 is next to the active runway.
Here is a photo of the track from Google Earth. If one zooms in on the long building at the corner Boeing Ave and Hairpin Drive one can see the green storage silos that are in JR's Sebring1 photo.
I have to agree to disagree with you on this one. I passed JRII in 7 & I went side by side in turn 10 together as he went to the inside. I was able to get a better exit. I stayed ahead through 12 & 13. We ran past 14 & it was prior to 15 which is the sweeping right hander. If it happened where you are saying the speeds would have been much less as you barely get up to 3rd gear there. We were in 4th gear flat at that point. There is also much more track room where I am saying this took place.
I can't comment on the buildings as I haven't been going there for 30 years but I am sure where the issue happened.
Steve Bamford
Bam Bam, my apologies. I have been studying JR's photo, it appears to be taken from the T15 area, looking toward the T10 area. A prime case of me making an a$$ out of myself prior to studying the photos in depth.
Again, my apologies.
No issues it can get messy looking at those pics & trying to figure it out on the map. I was wondering if I was losing my mind but realised it went out the window a long time ago.
Steve Bamford
I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong.
If the incident took place where you suggest, then there would still be buildings in the background of the later shots that follow John's car after the initial contact. But what you see is the empty space that is pretty clearly the airport.
If you put the camera man down near turn 15, you'll see that those silos you mention are still in the background line of sight and the foreshortening effect of a long telephoto lens is making them appear closer than they really are.
Alan
Yes I am wrong. I apologised to Bam Bam two posts ago.
After studying the photo, along with the aerial photo I came to the same conclusion you did.
I let myself be misled by John's statement about setting up for a pass at T13.
I am in agreement with you and Bam Bam that the photo was shot at T15.
Thanks
Dave
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