Congrats to Carson Weeder! 2 Wins! This kid is fast and always under control! I'm sure his Dad; Mark is very pleased. We are all proud of him. Def one to watch in the future!
Sebring Nationals
Congrats to Carson Weeder! 2 Wins! This kid is fast and always under control! I'm sure his Dad; Mark is very pleased. We are all proud of him. Def one to watch in the future!
Kudos
"An analog man living in a digital world"
--DELETED--Originally Posted by billwald
Congrats to Carson Weeder! 2 Wins! This kid is fast and always under control! ...
I deleted my post where I unjustly accused Carson of making unsafe passes on Vees during the event. I made a big mistake and I'm sorry, but can't undue the damage. All I can do is apologize to Carson and his dad and try to do better in the future.
My intent was to point out the inherent dangers of running Vees with FM and other faster classes. In reviewing my incar video, I have become more "enlightened" and will move over to Darryl's thread about 'running with faster cars' to continue that discussion.
Steve, FV80
Last edited by Steve Davis; 01.09.13 at 9:31 AM.
Sorry Steve. I do know him and his Dad. Raced on track with them for many years. Carson grew up racing mixed classes - I've never seen a problem. Bill
Last edited by billwald; 01.08.13 at 6:16 PM.
I see no reason to race these 'fast' & 'slow' cars together. Inherently dangerous. Even more so in open wheel. As a newbie, I'll start my racing with cars of similar speeds... That may be hard to find... Any suggestions ? F2000 Reynard Any 'helpful' suggestions ?
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Sebring Nationals
Goodbye Apex
Last edited by weedline; 01.08.13 at 10:05 AM. Reason: changes
Congrats to Carson- he is fast, and I wish him continued success.
As far as mixed classes go, that's the reality of club racing no matter where you are. Especially in the future with the new majors and rational event schedules.
I haven't done as many Nationals as I've wanted to in the past few years, and have done mostly regionals where FV's are mixed with all open wheel classes. I have to commend the V drivers I have been on the track with as they have all been very good at running their own race and watching out for, in many cases, much faster traffic.
I wasn't at Sebring, and didn't see JR2"s accident. This sounds to me of a situation where everyone was driving smart, there just was no where else to go. It also tells me how serious the consequences can be when you have a "miscue" under these circumstances. And that's not the first time that has happened at that part of the track at Sebring.
Mixed classes and this situation is not going away, and I would appreciate any drivers in the slower classes if they came to tell me if a pass was a little too close(they have on one occasion). To borrow a term in aviation, you have to have some level of "situational awareness" to race in these conditions. If you don't, maybe you should stay home.
I was just informed, and wish to clarify that the FV driver in the crash involving JR2 had less than zero situational awareness and should have stayed home.
"There are other words to describe this activity but I will refrain from using them in this Quorum". Animal House-1978
There has been no 'trash talking' on my part. I must assume, since you didn't sign your post, that you must be Carson's dad.
FA fast lap in Sat race ... 2:02.227
FM fast lap in Sat race ... 2:11.624
difference ~9.1 secs
FV fast lap in Sat race ... 2:39.624
diff to FM ~28.3 secs
Trust me... it's NOT the same.
Carson's experience = 4 years
My experience = 35 years
I'd LIKE to make 36+ years - I hope Carson would too.
I certainly agree about the 'situational awareness' for all drivers, but the car making the pass has the LAST CALL - the car in front CANNOT tell exactly where the car behind is, nor how fast is the closing rate. As a driver, I have on many occasions, come up behind a much slower car (usually another FV), and I have MADE THE DECISION to NOT execute a pass I was confident that I could make on my own accord. However, I was NOT so confident that the car in front of me would not 'react poorly' and crash into me .. or spin... or just go off into a wall because of my presence. Believe me, it is often NOT EASY to make that decision in the heat of battle. But, I have to pay for and execute my own repairs and as I age, I have less and less fun doing the work and less $$$ to waste needlessly. Winning is still quite important to me as is going fast (compared to my in class competitors), but the risk of crashing rates considerably higher in my mind than it did when I was 28 at the beginning of my racing career.
As said, the mixed class issue in SCCA is not going away .. and it continues to get worse as the class count grows. During events, I do EVERYTHING within my power to make it as easy as I possibly can to allow faster cars through .. including letting off the gas and giving up 2 or 3 seconds ... *IF* I see them coming. I make that decision WELL before the upcoming turn so that it's obvious and I POINT THE OTHER CAR BY. If a closing car does not get a 'point' from me, it's because I either don't know he's there, or I am already at a point in my car where I feel it's too late for me to make a change in my line without risking a spin and causing a crash. I think we ALL - even the new FAST youngsters - need to use that 'situational awareness' and be considerate of each other. Even if you ARE going WAY FASTER than that car ahead of you, you simply CANNOT pass through parts of that car unscathed. At least one of you will have to take action to avoid a collision. As a general (GCR) rule, that responsibility rests primarily with the overtaking driver and rightly so - he has the best view.
I hope that Carson, and other drivers as well, will take this as CONSTRUCTIVE comments (whether welcomed or not) - not trash talk, and act accordingly. We can save each other a lot of $$$ and possible PAIN.
"CLARIFY" ?? How do you do that? Agreed some drivers may be more competent than others - that's one of the things overtaking drivers should keep in mind.
Being split by 2 much faster cars in the middle of a turn is not an easy situation to be in .. even if you DO know they are coming.
And, lastly... HOW would you propose that someone improve their ability without actually racing? If everyone stayed home, there would be no races...
Steve, FV80
Congrats Carson
Good job...Staying clean for two days with cars 30 seconds slower is no small task.
I think it is criminal to combine V's and anything else with a wing on the same track. I fully understand that the V's are scared to be on the same track with much faster cars but calling out Carson is plain BS. I have done that race the last two years and the V's take the screwiest lines out there. You guys run along the middle of the straights and then swing way out to attack the apex. When you do your outward swing it appears that we are being let thru...and then BAM! you turn in when we are beside. I got taken off track down straights last year when lapping V's..so the straights are not safe either.
Your argument is not with us or Carson, it is with the SE division and their groupings. BTW, FM's don't like racing with V's or F500's either...too dangerous for everyone.
Yeah- I'll clarify that. I was messaged right after my post and was told that the V driver in that crash was driving erratically, not holding a specific line, and if there was a 110%- no, a 120% rule applied every class, he would have been sent home.
Again, I wasn't there. That's the info I am getting from people who were. I merely posted because this is a serious issue, and when I did, I tried to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Sorry if you don't agree.......I'm done.
Carson, Congrats on your win's last weekend. I have had no problem's with you overtaking me in the last four year's. See you guy's this week, I will have the gear's with me.
Hey Carson!! congrats on your 2 WINS!! I met you at the RunOffs, hope to see you do well again, keep pushing.
Don't let this slow you down, we all get our hand slapped and sometimes it sucks when is in public like this. We all know you were racing the crap out of your FM and maybe just maybe you irritated somebody. You don't race to make other competitors happy. Keep doing what your doing.
Marchand Juan
Regionals & not Nationals for some. Or do more test days till you get up to speed.
If you are driving a FV, or slower car in any group, you need to look in your mirrors & use them as you should be expected to be passed many times per lap. I have been out on the track & there were PFM on the track where I was in a FV, so I know the speed differences.
There was no point by & I highly doubt the FV saw myself until I was beside him even though he should have seen JR2 & myself coming out of the previous corners as there is a decent straight before that section. The FV was likely surprised as I past him on a straight & moved to the right where JR2 was.
After the race there was a few drivers who commented on issues with this driver in qualifying. Only stating what I was told by other drivers.
Steve Bamford
Carson, congratulations on your two wins!
Steve Bamford
"You don't race to make other competitors happy."
However, we also don't race to make them unhappy.
Scott Woodruff
83 RT5 Ralt/Scooteria Suzuki Formula S
(former) F440/F5/FF/FC/FA
65 FFR Cobra Roadster 4.6 DOHC
So true, bad choice of words.
I agree with you. The problem is that after this year the regional/national distinction is going away. Most people are going to have one or two majors races and then they throw everyone out there together. What used to be a national race is now going to be open to people with novice permits.
People should use their mirrors, but a big speed differential makes that very hard. From experience driving a vee: I could dilligently check my mirrors before a corner, start to turn in, and have a faster car appear that was absolutely not in a mirrors that I had just checked. I would guess that you experienced that as well.If you are driving a FV, or slower car in any group, you need to look in your mirrors & use them as you should be expected to be passed many times per lap. I have been out on the track & there were PFM on the track where I was in a FV, so I know the speed differences.
So then more test days till you get to speed I guess.
Yes I have experienced that before & was still responsible for my actions at that point. Getting spooked & steering the car away abruptly is not the answer as it appears happened in this instance. Better to stay on our line then abruptly alterate it.
Steve Bamford
Apologies to Carson
OK - I'll fess up and say I blamed Carson for the closest (to me) incident that caused me the most concern... I just reviewed my incar video (obviously SHOULD have done that before I posted) and now realize that Carson was the SECOND car at that point. He was apparently lapping one of the FF's - the one that blew me off the corner - then, since I had already swerved to avoid the FF, there was adequate room for Carson to also go through. The BIGGEST thing in my view at that moment was Carson's rear wing as it went by (I would have sworn that Carson was ahead at that point). In all cases I found, Carson made his passes with adequate room. I wish everyone had given us as much room as he did.
I also reviewed the incident where Lisa was punted off of T16 just in front of me. I guess part of the issue is that the overtaking car expects the Vee to brake going into turns - if we did, they would ZOOM BY and be clear. However, there are MANY turns where there is no abrupt braking just before turn-in and we DON'T slow as might be expected - at least the faster Vees don't. To HIM, it probably LOOKED like there was enough room - but Lisa was FASTER than he expected and got to the apex at the same time he did - BAM! (someone above indicated that Vees drive 'erratically' - they swing WIDE and then TURN-IN. As far as I know, that is the proper line for MOST corners for most cars - LATE APEX, so it should not be a surprise that Vees do that too.) From my perspective, I saw that contact coming well before the FM made the move.
Steve B mentioned that he and JR2 SHOULD have been visible in the Vee driver's mirrors on the previous straight, but it is highly likely that neither of you were. Your closing rate on him was probably well over 50 MPH and you were probably 30+ car lengths back at his turn-in point wherein you would disappear from his mirrors anyway. Just because you can see him 2 turns ahead, doesn't mean he can see you - you have a full field of view to the front - he has 2 tiny little pieces of reflective material. In the switch back -left / right / left, you would pass through his mirrors in milliseconds .. AND he's pretty busy trying to drive his car at those moments. You are no doubt correct that he never saw you till along side - but even if he had been in a 2 seater and devoting 100% of his attention to his mirrors while someone else drove, he probably still would not have seen you. The closing rates are THAT high! (and it takes NERVES OF STEEL to NOT swerve away from a car that just magically appeared inches from you).
There is no good answer, but the best answer is that we all work harder to keep it as safe (and as inexpensive) as possible.
I wish the best of success and accident free racing to all!
Steve, FV80
That's easy to say, but I don't think it is realistic. The SCCA keeps talking about reducing barriers to entry while completely screwing up racing for new guys.
Expecting people to drive hundreds of miles to only run the test day, which more often than not is all open wheel with about 5 total laps that are not black flag, is not going to reduce any barriers to entry.
We seem to have a very good TT program in SEDIV. I hope the driving school instructors are encouraging new guys to participate.
I didn't mean to say anything about this incident. I don't know anything about and I am still not even clear on whether it happened in a corner or on a straight. My point is only that checking your mirrors only takes you so far with a huge speed differential.Yes I have experienced that before & was still responsible for my actions at that point. Getting spooked & steering the car away abruptly is not the answer as it appears happened in this instance. Better to stay on our line then abruptly alterate it.
OP, was to give congrats to Carson, not to blast him.
But this year there still are Regionals so in that case this FV driver could have been running there. If the 110% rule was in place, or even 120% as someone pointed out, then they would not have been running. I am sure i have a good idea why the rule was created. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
Steve Bamford
Carson drove well to win both races, so congrats to him. He and I drove wheel to wheel for the whole Turkey Trot race in Nov at Sebring passing multiple FVs, FFs etc. without a problem.
Steve, I think I put the FV off at T16 on Sunday. I was in second behind Carson and followed the FV through T14 and T15. Assuming the FV had seen the blue flags, had seen Carson go past some seconds before, had seen me follow them through the last two turns, and then swung wide to drivers left at T16, it would be safe to make the pass. I felt I had presented myself prior to the turn and was in the driver's the field of vision. I certainly didn't expect to get hit at the apex.
I towed from Houston last three years to do this event because I love the track and I'll be back next year. But I prefer FMs don't run with FF, FV, F500 the closing speeds are too fast.
Steve please give me a call 561-793-2919
ken kaplowitz
Congrats, Carson! Hey man you make us proud. Tell your Dad keep up the good
work preparing the car. I know he is proud of you as well.
Go get'em!!!!!!!
John
Those of you that have been following this thread - please read my modification to post #3 above.
Sorry,
Steve, FV80
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