Trailering Aid Question

[turnbaugh]

Does anyone have any experience with this invention?

http://www.tufftow.com/

It certainly would help with tongue weight and it seems like it could help directional stability.

[Steve Demeter]

Saw something similar to that about 38 years ago on the front of a very heavy boat trailer.

Have seen multiople similar devices at PRI and IMIS.

They must be of some good or they would not still be in business.

[Purple Frog]

This type of product is far better.

http://www.trailertoad.com/

It can handle highway speeds and the load.

Many RVs and rigs are not rated for the tongue weight of a large trailer, but are comfortable in pulling the load. Especially true about Class A, and rear diesel Pushers.

[KevinFirlein]

I dont know if its the actual Tuff Tow brand or not but one of my clients as that same type of product on his 28' trailer that is pulled by a large diesel pusher bus. works great and helps take the load of the back of the bus. the wheels are designed to be used at highway speeds just fine as the drivers pulls above 70mph with it. I know he loves the product.

[Smittty]

Been haulin' heavy stuff for goin' on thirty years, so here's some food for thought...
these castoring wheel devices typically need a provision to either free castor 360 when backing up and turning or a system to "lockout" the castoring function, which means wheel scrub occurs when backing while turning - not a big deal if one is careful, but sure changes the game to a degree. Wonder how this behaves over a bumpy transistion while turning - like so many parking lots....Remember - just because you can pull it forward doesn't mean you can stop it quickly- and that means that an unbraked load assisting wheel (think axle) could be a detriment to overall stopping distance and control...Merry Christmas all!

[KevinFirlein]

with the one my client uses he has to remove a very large pin in order to back up.

[glenn cooper]

and I hear what they're saying, but it's as though they are completely unfamiliar with a weight distribution hitch!

[Purple Frog]

Coop,
Weight distribution hitches are fine, but on many motorhomes the chassis is not built to take the forces of a weight distribution hitch, thus the need for a "toad".
Some RVs that look rather huge, sometimes have maximum tongue weight ratings as low as 500#.
Some big diesel pushers don't have stout frames down low behind the engine. You'll see engine/drivetrain assemblies that sort of hang below the frame rails that are four feet above the pavement, thus no great trianglated steel frames down low in the back that can withstand a lot of twisting.

[mblanc]

There is a guy that goes to RA with a tall toter style STACKER trailer, with two V8 cars (mustang and a vette?)

He uses a Toad, and pulls it with a single rear PICKUP.
It looks very very odd, but he says it tows great.

It just looks like not near enough truck for the really huge trailer.

[glenn cooper]

There is a guy that goes to RA with a tall toter style STACKER trailer, with two V8 cars (mustang and a vette?)

He uses a Toad, and pulls it with a single rear PICKUP.
It looks very very odd, but he says it tows great.

It just looks like not near enough truck for the really huge trailer.

It's probably NOT enough truck for something like that(!)

Frog - I was refering to the illustrations on the tufftow website, depicting a very nose down trailer, hooked up to an ass dragging motorhome - kinda what mine looked like when I had what I like to refer to as "The Luckiest Day in my LIFE" a few years ago, leaving Rd America. You remember, the incident where the square tube damned near ripped completely free of the rest of the hitch...

I like the Toad, or Tufftow concept, especially as it pertains to the E350 Ford Van based motorhome I use... I will be looking into it for sure.

[Herman Pahls]

I have replaced the 5000# hitch on a 3/4 Dodge PU because it was about to fail.
When towing with my current motorhome I move the car as needed to not exceed the 500# tougue weight and always inspect to make sure the hitch is not cracking.
Next MH will have 10,000# hitch

[racerdad2]

Yes, check the hitch ! I pulled my camper to the Oshkosh Airshow a few years ago. As we were leaving, I stopped to take another look at our hook-ups. Good thing. Welds had let loose, 10k # bumper hitch was 'sagging' badly. Minnesota winters & road salt....

[DaveW]

On my 1974 Chevy G30 Van tow vehicle that I bought new in January 1975, I have had two hitches. The first was a class-2 that mounted to the bumper and the sheet-metal "frame." That quickly fatigued both the bumper and frame, even with a relatively light trailer. So, after repairing both, I installed a class 3 hitch.

That hitch quickly cracked because it had built-in design flaws causing stress concentrations. I repaired the cracks and modified the design to remove the stress risers.

After ~20 additional years of use with a heavier enclosed trailer, most of the time with a load-compensating setup, the above hitch got wobbly because its attachment bolts were locally collapsing and fatiguing the sheet-metal van floor and frame. Therefore, I reinforced the van at the bolt locations with 1/4" thick steel brackets and plates. It has been fine since.

Bottom lines:
1. As noted in previous posts, not every vehicle or hitch will perform as intended, even if the literature infers that it will.
2. EVERY TIME you come back from or leave on a trip towing, check the condition of the hitch and its attachment points - visually and jump on it to see if it flexes. A 5-minute inspection before or after each trip can save a "trailer-load" of trouble!

[brownslane]

The Toad is great! Takes a significant amount of tongue weight off the towing vehicle and places it directly over the pivot point between tower and the towed....the result is a very stable towing platform that allows the towing vehicle to pull the weight instead of having to carry the weight. As previously discussed this works especially great for motorhomes, but I also use mine on the 3/4 van I sometimes use for short hauls. With the adjustable height of the pickup on the toad, you can ensure a level trailer and can adjust the amount of tongue weight carried by the toad.

And a toad has a "lock-out" capability that eliminates the pivoting of the toad when backing. You do not even know it is there when backing up. Yes, there is scrub, but I don't even notice it.

I haul a triple-axle 34 tag and use my 28-foot Class A and my 3/4 ton van. Both haul adequately, except the van is a bit anemic with a 5.3L gas motor. The motorhome has a injected big block and pulls like a train. Now that the tongue weight has been reduced on the motorhome, it drives a whole lot better when towing now. There is little to no sway with the toad. It just disappeared.

In terms of stopping I don't understand how using a toad or not would affect the stopping capabilities as no weight is effectively removed from the system, and I have not noticed any negative affects. In fact, I am more confident as the trailer never "wiggles" with the toad in use.

The toad is a pain in the butt to connect as you now have another complete system to attach, etc. But the benefits far outweigh (sorry for the pun) any detriments. I just leave it attached to the motorhome.

Highly recommend the trailer toad. Not cheap, but it sure makes the journey a lot more pleasant.

Regards, Tom

[Rick Kirchner]

You can't really use weigh distributing hitches on air bag motorhomes either. they will adjust bag pressure to maintin ride height. Too much tongue weight on a bagger will cause it to just keep jacking up the pressure in the back, possibly to the point where there's not enough pressure available.

With the exception of the massive hitches on the Semi-based toters, all class a hitches seem to be the same POS. In order to keep ground clearance issues to a minimum they butt-weld the receiver to the cross tube. if you're lucky they gusset it. it's still too low and the drawbar scrapes all the time.

I'm having a new one made this year that will raise it several inches and cut the rear cap to acommodate. then I have to raise the coupler on the trailer. I hope to pervent the constant dragging and potential massive overloads that occur going through dips and into parking lots. I'm always worried I'm going to snap the hitch off.

[DaveW]

...
In terms of stopping I don't understand how using a toad or not would affect the stopping capabilities as no weight is effectively removed from the system, and I have not noticed any negative affects. In fact, I am more confident as the trailer never "wiggles" with the toad in use....

A comment on this:
If the "Toad" wheels are carrying a load, call it "LT" (they have to be loaded in order to help support the tongue) and are not braked, then the load remaining on braked vehicle wheels is "LT" less than the total vehicle weight. Therefore, the theoretical total available braking force is reduced by (Coefficient of Friction) x "LT" from what could otherwise be nominally available with all wheels braking.

It may not be a large amount, but some theoretical braking force decrease has to exist if the non-braked "Toad" unit is doing anything at all to reduce hitch load.

This does not mean that it would necessarily be unsafe, or that the small decrease in theoretical braking ability would be noticeable. In fact, if the braked wheels are now more uniformly loaded, stability and braking ability "might" actually be better.

[Beartrax]

A comment on this:

This does not mean that it would necessarily be unsafe, or that the small decrease in theoretical braking ability would be noticeable. In fact, if the braked wheels are now more uniformly loaded, stability and braking ability "might" actually be better.

If the trailer has brakes and the tow vehicle has a brake controller, why would the braking be any worse with a "Toad" or other device?

[racerdad2]

Remember... Engineers continue to learn more & more about less & less until they know everything about nothing just kidding !!!

[Daryl DeArman]

If the trailer has brakes and the tow vehicle has a brake controller, why would the braking be any worse with a "Toad" or other device?

What Dave is trying to explain, as I understand it, is that since the toad doesn't have any braking capabilities and is carrying some of the load the remaining tires can't generate as much braking. Same weight to stop, less weight on tires with brakes.

[Daryl DeArman]

Question regarding licensing: Since the toad dolly pivots on the pulling vehicle and the trailer is allowed to pivot on the toad. How is the toad dolly not considered a really short trailer?...therefore requiring a doubles endorsement...

[Rick Kirchner]

The trailer toad doesn't pivot on the tow vehicle's hitch - it has a drawbar that solidly connects it IRRC.

The axle pivots under the hitch ball.

[Purple Frog]

I don't think the average person would notice a braking issue. Think about it. You have a 10,000 lb. trailer, and you put 1,000 lb on the tongue. You still have 90% of the weight on the trailer brakes. The tow vehicle brakes are still working fine. I think i'd give up 10% of the trailer braking to know the rear end of my RV chassis didn't just drop on the interstate.

[iamuwere]

PF you lack adventure

[R Nicholas]

I have towed with the TuffTow unit for about 5 years, have used it with three different tow
vehicles. Same Trailer. 28' Pace, 12' Tall Tri Axle. 10,000 - 11,000 lbs loaded

2006 GMC 3500 Dually / Duramax
Huge improvement with the Dually, because this is the lightest vehicle, it really settles down the rear of the truck from being pushed around.

2000 40' Monaco pusher / 330 Cummins ISC
This was a single rear axle, removing some of the weight from the rear axle and airbags of the MH was a big help and made for a better ride.

2006' 45 Tag Axle American Eagle / 500 Cummins ISM
Because of the 15k hitch and the tandem rear axle set up the Tufftow is just added over kill. I prefer not to use it here just because its a pain to backup with it.

Something else to consider,
Spend some time at your local truck stop on the scales.
With Motorhomes its very easy to get too much weight on the rear axle. This can save you a big problem if you have to go over weigh scales in your travels. Not to mention the wear & tear by overloading the rear of the Coach.


Rob Nicholas

[DaveW]

What Dave is trying to explain, as I understand it, is that since the toad doesn't have any braking capabilities and is carrying some of the load the remaining tires can't generate as much braking. Same weight to stop, less weight on tires with brakes.

This principle is the same as what makes a "slide-car" slide. Four casters on outriggers carry a large part of the car's weight, therefore reducing the maximum G-load to a small percentage of what the car would normally do. It results in a feeling similar to driving on ice. Several drivers' schools (Mid-Ohio is one) use these to teach slide correction at safe speeds.

Obviously the effect with a "Toad" is much less, maybe 2 to 5% vs maybe 75% on a slide car.

[sracing]

Dave is correct. But after considering this it, would seem that under hard braking the weight transfer to the toad could be significant. Since the transfer to the single wheel could greatly unbalance the rear two, I would think a fishtail could be pretty likely. I would like to see some hard braking tests with the unit. IMO, Dave is right but it could be worse than the 2-5%, not to mention the sway potential.

[brownslane]

There is no swaying. Quite the opposite. The toad has a pair of wheels spread about 40 inches across. As well, the toad is solidly mounted to the rear of the towing vehicle so side loads are directed to the rear axle of the towing vehicle exactly the same as any other manner of connection. The toad pivots, but this pivoting is limited to 15 degrees....any loading past this point will cause scrub...and this will definitely resist any large sways...but I cannot comment on that as I have never had any swaying to mention.

Any thrusting loads, whether forward or downward is supported by the toad, but borne by the towing vehicle. That actually aids braking as downward thrusts by a trailer are not allowed to influence the attitude of the towing vehicle...so the rear of the towing vehicle is not driven downward and the front wheels of the towing vehicle will not be unladen...so they can continue to steer and brake. For the trailer (I have a tri-axle), I would expect the toad keeps all 6 wheels evenly planted and braking more efficiently.

Dave, you are right about the loads taken by the toad...it is less than 10% and I have found that it also reduces the dipping of the trailer so I don't drag its butt on driveways as much.

Best, T

[Daryl DeArman]

The trailer toad doesn't pivot on the tow vehicle's hitch - it has a drawbar that solidly connects it IRRC.

The axle pivots under the hitch ball.

Ahh...thank you. Wow that's a large scrub radius and what seems like a ton of force on the tow vehicle's hitch in directions it wasn't originally designed to deal with.

[brownslane]

Ahh...thank you. Wow that's a large scrub radius and what seems like a ton of force on the tow vehicle's hitch in directions it wasn't originally designed to deal with.

Only when turning "tight" corners. I know when it scrubs, and it only does so if you are turning through 90 degrees or more in a radius less than 30 feet. So it scrubs if you are turning right hand corners in the suburbs or city. Does not scrub in left hand corners in the city as the radius is over 60 feet...