New FST Wizzy Bits for 2013

[Bill Bonow]

While not attempting to be as controversial as say the Radon RN-10, I do like to make improvements in attempt to make the weekend just a little bit more relaxed.

Most FST's need ballast to make the minimum weight. At the same time, we need to charge the batteries in our cars between sessions. A perfect opportunity for the addition of a wizzy bit and the subtraction of ballast

This winters "wizzy bit" addition was a smart charger mounted on-board with a permenent connection to the battery. Got mine on a "Christmas Blow Out" from Northern Tool. It's the NPower 2 amp smart charger and I got it for $19.00. I've mounted it in front of the dash bulkhead and will have a 120v plug accessable for between session charging. I've attached photos for viewing pleasure.

Need to disclose that this is not my idea. Jim Nash has had a "Battery Tender" mounted on board the Mission for a good while. A great idea and credit should go to the originator.

I mostly wanted this addition as now I won't need to remember to bring a charger with me..... It's mounted in the race car! One less thing I need to haul to the track.

[TimW]

So, can't quite see in the photo, but lord mounts or no?

Tim

[Bill Bonow]

Tim,

No lord mounts, but it is isolated with silicon rubber (red) pads under 4 mounting points. They can just barely been seen. These cars/engines don't seem to be real shakers, but I'll be watching to see if the charger takes a dump.

[Steve Davis]

Bill,
Regardless of what the manual tells you, you need a DISCONNECT switch between the battery and the charger unless it is ALWAYS powered on. There is ALWAYS a parasitic amp draw from the parts inside the charger when it does not have AC power. It may not be much, but if you put your car in the garage ... or leave it in the trailer.... for, say 2 months or more (maybe less, depending on the unit), you will likely return to a DEAD DEAD DEAD battery - regardless of how much the battery cost in the first place.

I have a similar device on my RV ... with a SWITCH to disconnect it from the battery most of the time. When it "sits around" (almost always under power), I occasionally drop by and turn the switch to ON so it can charge the engine battery. When traveling, I try to make sure that it is turned OFF in case I am NOT connected to shore power for extended periods of time.

Works for me :-).
Steve, FV80

[Bill Bonow]

Steve,

Good points, thank you.

I normally keep a "tender" on the cars battery most times, but had not thought of a potential drain while not plugged in. Although it would not be unplugged for more than 2 days at a time (while towing to and from the track), it's still a potential loss. Battery life has not been my strong suit as of recent (3 dead ones in 6 races) due to overcharging with the wrong type of charger.

Will now likely install a plug/disconnect between the charger and battery.

[Mark Filip]

Why would you need to charge your battery between sessions?

I can run a entire weekend including a full practice day on Friday without battery dropping bellow 12 volts and I power data and a hardwire camera every session out.

[Bill Bonow]

Mark,

OK, bad choice of words on my part. Replace "need" with "have the option to" and all is good. I guess it could also depend on the size battery being used (I'm using an 18 Ah) and we are using 12v starters (vs FV using a 6v starter on a 12v system).

I'd bet I could go further into the weekend without charging, but I chose to charge between sessions. There isn't much else to do beyond fueling, so it gives me something to do.

[sracing]

Will now likely install a plug/disconnect between the charger and battery.

Bill no need for the disconnect, Just connect the charger to the other side of the kill switch. When the car is stored and the kill is off, you will have no connection from the batt to the charger. When you iwant to charge, just turn the kill on.
(If I remember correctly you have your D/A connected so that it is on all the time when the Kill is on? ) That is not a real problem, but you might want to change that so that it has a separate switch. I like the separate switch in any case so that I can turn on the D/A without the Fuel pump, ign, etc. on.

One other problem with your system when charging ON track. You will need a very long extention cord. Not to bad at NL (only 1.8 miles), but it could be trouble at RA.

[Mark Filip]

Mark,

OK, bad choice of words on my part. Replace "need" with "have the option to" and all is good. I guess it could also depend on the size battery being used (I'm using an 18 Ah) and we are using 12v starters (vs FV using a 6v starter on a 12v system).

I'd bet I could go further into the weekend without charging, but I chose to charge between sessions. There isn't much else to do beyond fueling, so it gives me something to do.

I use a 15ah battery along with a 12v high torque starter never had a problem and I always monitor battery voltage via Data system after every time the car is out. I do charge battery between events.

[sracing]

Why would you need to charge your battery between sessions?

Mark, True, most all FV's and FST's can do the full weekend without a charge. However lead acid (AGM or standard) are meant to be at a "float level" all the time. Everytime your battery drops to say 80% and sits there, it starts to sulfate. At 60% it sulfates even more. Eventualy the chemical structure ends up so that you can only charge your battery back to the level it has "sulfated to". That is why the battery on your street car is expected to go 5 years or more. Typically it never sits at any discharged level.

That is why it is so important to keep your FV battery stored with a Battery tender of some sort on it. Over the winter without a charger on it, it can discharge to as much as 50%. It will take a charge but have far less capacity than it did.

The newer lithium ion batteries don't have this problem nearly as bad, but to some point they do.

Edited/Added: Mark, note that battery voltage is not a good indicator of it's state of charge. Only A .100 volt change is as much as 15% of charge capacity.

A lead acid (AGM, etc) indicates about 12.8V fully charged with a light load on it. At 12.3+ it is already down to a 50% discharged level.

I am a nut on recharging. I charge all 4 cars after every session and have tenders on them in the off season. In the last 5 or 6 years I have only replaced one battery on the 4 cars.

[racerdad2]

Looks like I'll be installing a battery tender this weekend. Thx for all the info

[Mark Filip]

http://batterytender.com/products/ac...l-harness.html

That's what they made these for

Wouldn't you rather have your ballast on the floor pan?

[Bill Bonow]

I am a nut on recharging. I charge all 4 cars after every session and have tenders on them in the off season.

Well Jim, looks like most of us FST guys are nuts. Big surprize, aye?

RD2, probably have a Northern Tool down the street from you. Can't say if the're still on sale, but I'd bet the're still pretty reasonable. Just remember to set up a disconnect while not plugged in.

[Bill Bonow]

Wouldn't you rather have your ballast on the floor pan?

Mark,

I'm 200 lbs and need 35 lbs of lead to make weight. That 35 lbs of lead is currently located on the floor. The charger weighs less than 1 lb. I'm not going to worry about any change of CG on this one.

[Bill Bonow]

http://batterytender.com/products/ac...l-harness.html

That's what they made these for

Yep, got a whole bag of those things in the shop. Been using them for 4 or 5 years. Makes charging between sessions easy. I'm looking to lighten up my total towing package (take less stuff to the track).

I use to go to the track with a 44' goose and a diesel crew cab dually (see photo)

Now I go to the track and get 29 mpg towing and still have everything I need (see other photo)

[jsteeb]

Great... as soon as Bonow wins a race with this setup, we're all going to have spend an extra $20 just to be competitive!



Cool idea guys!

[sracing]

Great idea: Mount a generator on the engine driven with a belt off that pulley thing. AND.. you could put a fan on the same shaft to cool the engine.. Good idea or what?

[Bill Bonow]

There you go Jim, getting all nutty on us again

Note: Inside joke for FST guys only: Actually I was thinking of one of those axle shaft driven alternators, but then I remembered that no matter how fast I go, the axle tube won't turn, but I'd still be asking why it won't charge.

[flat tappet]

Bill no need for the disconnect, Just connect the charger to the other side of the kill switch. When the car is stored and the kill is off, you will have no connection from the batt to the charger. When you iwant to charge, just turn the kill on.
(If I remember correctly you have your D/A connected so that it is on all the time when the Kill is on? ) That is not a real problem, but you might want to change that so that it has a separate switch. I like the separate switch in any case so that I can turn on the D/A without the Fuel pump, ign, etc. on.

One other problem with your system when charging ON track. You will need a very long extention cord. Not to bad at NL (only 1.8 miles), but it could be trouble at RA.

For "only" an additional $99 or so from Harbor Freight, one can purchase a 1000 watt small 2 stroke generator. Then, for "only" an addition $3.50 or so, you can add a gallon of unleaded and no need for a 1000ft extention cord. I have one of said generators....and they are kind of nice(and small in the trailer) to have just in case.

[sracing]

For "only" an additional $99 or so from Harbor Freight, one can purchase a 1000 watt small 2 stroke generator. Then, for "only" an addition $3.50 or so, you can add a gallon of unleaded and no need for a 1000ft extention cord. I have one of said generators....and they are kind of nice(and small in the trailer) to have just in case.

As far out as that seems, in FST, we actually do have some drivers that COULD put that GenSet on board the car and still be at close to weight... However, we are not allowed to run 2 cycle engines.

[killerken53]

Out of curiosity, how much power would a generator WITHOUT a fan (such as on a type 3) or better yet a modern lightweight alternator pull from an engine? I am assuming the majority of the losses from an upright system is in driving the fan not the generator. Since cooling doesn't seem to be an issue....

Disclaimer: I am not a FST owner or driver, but someday when there are a few more nickels to rub together I would like to build one. At the moment I just have a z-bar solo vee.

[Bill Bonow]

Kenny,

There is a whole lota boredom goin on at the moment, hence this topic and subject.

We really have no need at all to charge while on the racetrack. The draw from ignition, data, rain light, video systems is minimal. To add an alternator/generator is 100% not needed. As Mark (fvracer27) pointed out, we very well could get through a weekend (6 sessions) without a charge. Beyond adding fuel, checking oil level and wheel nut torque, we pretty much sit around and bench race/bother each other. Battery charging helps to keep our idle minds busy. Well, at least for a little while.

To answer your question, Yes, the fan is the big HP draw on the VW AC engine.

[sracing]

Out of curiosity, how much power would a generator WITHOUT a fan (such as on a type 3) or better yet a modern lightweight alternator pull from an engine? .

A little hard to answer exactly. Assuming a light gen and efficient drive system less than 1 HP max. It would of course depend upon the RPM you ran the gen at. Optimum is to run it so slow that it only charges at 4000 engine RPM and above. Even better is to run off the axle etc. Thus some charging takes place even when coasting with very low engine RPM.

But, with people tuning carbs and manifolds, headers, etc to get that last .5 HP, it is not likely one would want a gen system if you can live without it.

[killerken53]

Thanks all for the responses. Just a point of curiosity since the topic was brought up.

[flat tappet]

As far out as that seems, in FST, we actually do have some drivers that COULD put that GenSet on board the car and still be at close to weight... However, we are not allowed to run 2 cycle engines.

Jim....I only meant that one of the small light weight generators would be an inexpensive way to power the battery charger in the pits when no power is either near or available.

[sracing]

Jim....I only meant that one of the small light weight generators would be an inexpensive way to power the battery charger in the pits when no power is either near or available.

I realized that. I was just joking about putting it in the car. We have a small 1KW Honda that we use to use for that purpose when we started racing.

[Bill Bonow]

...one of the small light weight generators would be an inexpensive way to power the battery charger in the pits when no power is either near or available.

Bruce,

More recently, I have become a power bum. I paddock next to Jim and wait until he fires up his generator. Then I get out my extension cord

Kenny,

There is a very extensive study on fan HP draw vs RPM posted on the Samba. Really interesting stuff. Looked for a link, but couldn't find it. Simply stated, at 3000 rpm going down the highway, the loss is reaonable at 1 to 2 HP. At race speeds, say 6000 rpm, that fan is an HP pig eating up 7 to 10 hp.

[flat tappet]

Bruce,

More recently, I have become a power bum. I paddock next to Jim and wait until he fires up his generator. Then I get out my extension cord

Kenny,

There is a very extensive study on fan HP draw vs RPM posted on the Samba. Really interesting stuff. Looked for a link, but couldn't find it. Simply stated, at 3000 rpm going down the highway, the loss is reaonable at 1 to 2 HP. At race speeds, say 6000 rpm, that fan is an HP pig eating up 7 to 10 hp.

Bill....re:HP loss with a fan....for the same reason,we don't use fans in our F500's for road racing.The AutoX guys do because they are not getting a long enough duration of speed to cool their radiators.

Great thought on the trickle charger on your car. I think I will just hook up my battery tender jr to my generator in the pits between sessions.Thanks!!

[TimW]

Wow, we must be bored. Do you think we'll get to a centithread on battery chargers in December? That would be telling....

Is anyone using any of the solar Goal Zero battery packs for low power use at the track? Now that I have an alternator and no need for a battery charger the generator rarely comes out of the trailer. We have a nice speaker on the trailer that is driven by our iPod, but frankly unless we can bum power we don't pull out the generator to just run the speaker. If we could run our low power needs off this we'd probably enjoy down time at the track more (and prolly annoy our paddock neighbors with This American Life marathons)

[Bill Bonow]

Do you think we'll get to a centithread on battery chargers in December? That would be telling....

Tim,

Had to look that one up. Learning new terms everyday. Having a good laugh and yes, we are bored.

[Charlie Schmidt]

If you're determined to overdo it, tap off the power cord of the charger with a 120v coil relay to close the charge circuit when plugged in......

Back in my Corvair days, I read that those fans pulled about 14 hp @ 5000 rpm, no wonder it felt like a turbo when the belt left

[Bill Bonow]

Maybe I should have stated this in my first post, but this really isn't just about battery chargers and the tedious task of charging. I was hopeful that a few of the other FST'ers would post something about what they are doing to their car over the winter (I.E. addition of wizzy bits). You know, new graphics or paint, fancy wheels or an oil change, carbon fiber mirrors, ect. Stuff that will make your car un-beatable in 2013.

Talking exclusively about battery charging will take boredom to the extreme

[Tiago Santos]

I like that idea No FST for me just yet, but I have decided to skip next season and rebuild the vee instead, make it a long term, no pressure project. I'm finishing up some changes on the CNC milling machine which will make it much easier to use and plan to go completely overboard with as much cool (even if slightly overkill and unnecessary) machined bits as I can.

[Garry Sharp]

I've never been THIS bored.

Garry

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

OK Bill,

I will bite on your invitation to post some pictures and try to re-invigorate this post.

Below are some pictures from my new FST steering set up.

[Steve Davis]

Scott,
INCREDIBLY COOL . I especially like the 'DFC' on/in the front bulkhead plate.
Goes to show that SOME PEOPLE are still innovating within the existing rule set. However, I AM a bit confused as to how you expect the car to corner well with only a SINGLE tie rod on the right side and nothing for the left side .

Steve, FV80

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Thanks Steve,

I got a little carried away with the laser cutter, wait until you see the rest of the car (picture below)

I figured that if the F1 cars can drive around on three wheels then why cant I? There must be inherent efficiency in only one wheel doing all of the steering.....Right?

[Jim Nash]

Here are the latest head cooling scoops from MRC. They are based on the prototypes that performed well last year. Once again, Mike Devins of Hurley Racing Prooducts made the molds and will make the production parts.

BTW...Bill, did you paint the charger to match the car bits or the other way around?

Jim

[killerken53]

WOW! That is fantastic looking! Very effective use of the plasma cutter. That is fairly similar to the ideas floating around in my head. The use of a solid plate at the nose is a different concept that I never considered. That gives you an easy flat surface to mount to.

[Bill Bonow]

Scott,

Thanks for the DFC steering pics. Always great to see another idea turning into reality. Looks like at one point front steer was a possibility? The laser cutting is great. Can't wait 'til it hits the track.

Jim,

Those scoops are great. Are they now available from HRP? They will be great "bolt ons" for conversion cars. Simple, good looking and very effective.

It was pure luck, ordered the charger and it came in that blue. May be a pantone shade or 2 away from exact, but close enough.