Staudacher FB Development (was: Engine failures)

[JONKATHY]

I'm building an FB and will be doing my own engine work. I currently race DSR and do my own egines for that. What I would like to know is the common failure modes of the 07 08 GSXR in FB. I am most curious about connecting rods, connecting rod bolts, and valves.
Thank you.
Jon Staudacher

[ghickman]

My opinion is that engine failures in this class using the 07/08 Suzuki have just about gone away.

Much of this due to proper oil pans and most importantly downshifting without buzzing the engine.

The Geartronics solved most of the over rev issues and has improved the shifting so much that the stress on the engines has declined. The SCCA tried to kill the Geartronics but for the time being lost that battle.

Rod bolts and exhaust valves will always be a weak link in these engines. But with good shifting practices you can almost eliminate the problem. I recommend 8 race weekends then do an engine swap. Either sell them off to the DSR guys or freshen them.

[Mike B]

Jon,
I can't comment on engine failures because I'm still on the same engine for the last 3 seasons (without geartronics-gasp!)
I just want to welcome you to F1000 and can't wait to see your car!

[JakeL]

Jon -

Ditto Mike's welcome to FB!

First, as you could probably anticipate, failures are a lot less common in FB in general, so I'm not sure there's an adequate sample set to really determine any trends.

As Gary mentioned, a few years ago, you still saw the odd oiling failure, but those seem to be solved with the latest generation of oil pans. (C&M, Rilltech, Moon, etc).

I do know that several competitors like to "life out" their engines after a certain number of weekends in fear of dropping valves due to fatigue on the two-piece titanium valves.

To my knowledge (potentially incomplete) there were not any non-operator-induced FB engine failures this year at Runoffs.

Last year, Brandon suffered a difficult-to-explain rod failure (snapped in the middle).

Coop had a few failures this year, perhaps he can weigh in and offer if they had a root cause.

Merely one data point, but I have two engines, one of which is straight out of a bike, and I plan on running both for all of next year, with luck.

Post pictures!

-Jake

[Northwind]

Jon,

Welcome.

PM sent.

[JerryH]

Welcome to the F1000 family Jon! I'm sure your creativity will amaze us all.....as it has anyone who has seen your other work.

One more chassis builder to add to the list.....how many is that now?

Jerry Hodges
JDR Motorsport

[JONKATHY]

Thanks guys.
I have four engines sitting here, two of which are run out. I wonder what the pros do when they "freshen" an engine?
I'll post some photos soon. It's a bit unusual.
I have done 5 DSR's so this is the 6th car.
Jon

[SWMyers]

Jon,

Can't wait to see your take on an FB after all you've done with the DSRs. Are you using the same basic chassis design as you used in the full bodied cards, or will you be doing something different?

Steve

[glenn cooper]

2 of which were my own damned fault (Runoffs), and one which was 15 minutes into a refresh of a low hour street bike motor which ate some intake valves at Barber just prior to the Runoffs.

Interestingly the failure of an engine, particularly of a dropped valve, used to be attributable to the driver possibly not down shifting correctly, but with a functioning Geartronics, and data aq - those days are long gone, and something the engine builder did, or didn't do is now as suspect as a part failure.

The Runoffs failures were having the clutch slave bolts come out, which allowed the clutch slave to come off, which allowed the clutch release pushrod to be pushed out, followed shortly thereafter by 6.5 quarts of oil at 60psi through a 4mm hole.

SAFETY WIRE ALL BOLTS THAT HOLD FLUIDS IN THE ENGINE!
. Engine oil drains
. Engine oil fill
. Clutch slave
. oil filter w/ hose clamp around base and wire the clamp to something solid.
. Oil check bolt - front of engine, #1 cylinder above exhaust header pipe, copper crush washer, 10 mm head
. fittings mounted to block or pan
, paint AN style fittings w/ witness paint to ensure they have not loosened.
. rad bleed lines
. rad clamps can be tightened and safety wire run through the screwdriver slot to keep from loosening.

"Etc, etc, etc" - Yul Brenner, "The King and I"

Failure to do any of this WILL eventually come back to bite you on the ass, most likely while you are in podium position at the Runoffs...

The one that failed next, race morning hardship warmup, was once again, self inflicted: while attempting to get some heat in the oil, I let it idle too long and water temp rose to 240 before I noticed and shut it down. Damage is done...

These engines will tolerate ONE overheat episode, and WILL FAIL the very next time you run it, which is exactly what happened in the race later that day.

As mentioned above, we really have a handle on engine life for the last few years, basically by lifing the component (engine). I do 8 complete race weekends, pull it and sell the core, one of which you got at Rd America...

The engine failure Brandon had at NJ was the 11th weekend on that engine as I recall - so it was a bit of a gamble to push it that far.

The cost of the mandatory to use stock Ti valves is somewhat prohibitive, anywhere from $75-100 each x 16 and you see why it's (so far) less expensive to go with a lower mile street bike engine.

Obviously the supply is damned near gone for 07-08 Suzuki's, so it may be less expensive now to replace all the valves, and do the regular rebuild - all bearings, rod bolts, cam chain, maybe even valve springs, which DSR guys may have plenty of low hour stock springs, etc...

[crowe motorsports]

Jon,

Ditto on having your expertise, knowledge and vision being part of the F1000 class.

All the engine info above is right on. Just to add, in DSR we typically ran higher RPM's. For me it was 12.5 target and some guys were in the the 13's and I heard even up to 14. With stock motors I target 12 with a stretch here in there for a draft or a corner or two. Lower revs extends the life typically especially the valves. As we all know, make sure the motor does not have a rev limiter. Hanging a motor on a rev limiter or feathering the throttle at top revs oscillating the loading/unloading of the rod/ bearings hammers the valves and or rods that can lead to valve or rod failure.

The other gremlin that have caught competitors by surprise it allowing the crankcase to get pressurized which causes the round seal to push out around the clutch slave rod. So the breather on top of the motor must be vented to a catch can and make sure the catch can does not get fluid in it where that vent hose is in the fluid (so keep the vent pipe short at the top of the catch can and not long where it is in the bottom of the catch can). If you have a dry sump you must vent the oil tank overflow to the stock oil fill inlet and DO NOT vent it back to the top of the motor. Otherwise you will pressurize the crankcase.

I look forward to seeing your creation.

Merry Christmas to all and best wishes for a great new year!

[Jon Jeffords]

As we all know, make sure the motor does to have a rev limiter.

"does" or "doesn't"?

[crowe motorsports]

I suggest that you do NOT have a rev limiter within your top rev target with some wiggle room. Topping out on a rev limiter down a long straight is hard on engine internals. The general theory is a motor in constant acceleration load as you go up though the gears is preferred. When the motor is oscillating (loaded and unloaded) it is creating more stress on the components. Of course this happens on a regular basis in wheel to wheel racing. I have been running 07/08 GSXR for 5 years and they are very durable even when abused.

[JONKATHY]

Here are a few photos: 2 of the new FB and 2 of the DSR for comparison. They share a common architecture.

[glenn cooper]

As the stock GSXR rev limiter is (I believe) something like 13,300 and power on a stocker starts going away about 1000 rpm lower than that, I'm not following the logic.

[Marty Nygard]

I'm stunned Jon. A Staudacher racer car without a front radiator! Perhaps it will look more familiar when you start adding the wooden parts.
Can we assume you are targeting mid summer debut?
Marty

[glenn cooper]

how a rod through the cases will puncture the pressurised rad - On Board fire supression indeed! (J/k, well maybe not 100%, mostly j/k...)

[Alan Oppel]

Reliability for FB engine seems to reside in the hands, or right foot actually, of the beholden. As DSR allows mods and FB is a 'stock component' design for engine prep, remaining off of the factory rev limit is key to life. If you are a believer in 20 seconds of rev limiter time before failure, you can use up your time in one session, or remain in the safe zone and not use up your 20 seconds before the end of 10 weekends, and just freshen your still good engine. Suzuki for example has decided that they do not like to toss thier riders off, and as such they use a soft cut rev limiter. You can drive through the rev limiter, however it cuts odd cylinders every other revolution, and as a result causes the crankshift to twist. With bearing shells as thin as they are, you only have to hammer them out of round a bit, and one will climb the other, and BANG. Wet sump motors with the Rilltech pan seem the most reliable. Just ask Tom B how to go fast and still be reliable. He has the Mojo.

[JakeL]

Just ask Tom B how to go fast and still be reliable. He has the Mojo.

You mean the fellow that blew up 3 engines at Runoffs this year?

Nobody is safe from DSR engines, Tom's run of good luck finally ended...

-J

[Alan Oppel]

You are not aware of Tom Beattie here in the south east, who has a wonderful record of reliability and speed. if you want to see fireworks, check out your local new years celebration, and wring your hands with glee. You wanna race reliably, look at your own hands and let them treat your own engine kindly. Alan

[JakeL]

Allan -

Assumed you were referring to another Tom B - Bootz.

Fingers crossed, no blood of failed stock Suzukis on my hands either

-J

[Alan Oppel]

No issue there, I was not specific enough. Suzuki 08 gsxr, i run the oil level at the top of the sight window, checking at 2000 rpm hot.

[Jon Jeffords]

Here are a few photos: 2 of the new FB and 2 of the DSR for comparison.

Off topic, but I gotta ask: what is transported in that wooden trailer in the background? Very sleek.
And by the way, that shop is way too clean and organized. Dirty it up a bit, will ya?!

[glenn cooper]

there is a website devoted to the cool stuff (aerobatic aircraft, wooden trailerS, racecars, and pretty much anything else) a CRAFTSMAN of his stature can conjure up.

The latest wooden trailer is able to be pulled with a Mazda CX5, and has the spare DSR on the roof!

[Marty Nygard]

Glenn,
In addition to your list, I believe Jon has also won awards for his house. I suppose that growing up watching your dad construct many of the iconic unlimited racing hydroplanes of the era would tend to interest you in wood a a fabrication media.
Marty

[JONKATHY]

A few more photos of the FB build.
Also some photos of the house that Marty mentioned. That's part of an airplane above the front door (inside) and a race boat on the ceiling in another room.
My wife designed the house and not only allows race junk in the house, but encourages it. What a wife.

Jon

[ghickman]

Are you by chance the guy or the son of the guy that built Leo Loudenslagers aerobatic planes back in the 70's or maybe early 80's?

That is one cool house....your work is like art deco magic.

[glenn cooper]

Now we need yet another magazine on the rack - "Super Cool Home and Garden"!

[JONKATHY]

Gary,
No, I did not build Leo's planes. When I started flying aerobatic competition in 1988 Leo had moved on to airshows with Budweiser as a sponsor. I did see him fly once, and of course, he was great.
Jon

[JONKATHY]

The guy helping me (the balder one) is Hal Pringle. He made a long drive just to help me with the glass work. Many of you know him. What a guy!

[reidhazelton]

[Northwind]

Looking good Jon.

You build real parts faster than most people can model them in CAD.

Don't forget to add anti-intrusion bars on your front A-arms.

[Jnovak]

Really nice Jon, all of us are going to have to watch out.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[provamo]

just totally awesome!

[JONKATHY]

Dan,
CAD. Never heard of that. Must be a Yooper term.
Tomorrow is anti intrusion bar day.
Thanks.
Jon

[kiwimanz]

Superb work Jon! That baby should be very quick with that minimum amount of frontal area. Any concerns on cooling?

Cheers
Linz

Dan,
CAD. Never heard of that. Must be a Yooper term.
Tomorrow is anti intrusion bar day.
Thanks.
Jon

[Lincspeed]

Marty, by mid summer, Jon will probably be working on FB #2. Isn't it great to be so talented in all aspects of fabrication and NEVER have to wait for someone else to help...

Clark

[JONKATHY]

Linz,
I had three choices. Front, side, or rear. I knew the first two would work so I chose the third. Mike Devins called me today, and after seeing the photos he said that he was sure it would work. So now the burden is on him.
Jon

[Stan Clayton]

Beautiful work as always Jon!

BTW, is that an unlimited hydroplane I see hanging upside down from the ceiling in photo 9 in post 25 above?

[JONKATHY]

Stan,
No, that's a 2.5L mod boat. Sort of the FA of boats.
That boat is very special to me because it's the firts boat that I built to set a world competition record. It did it three times in a row (the first three times it got wet) at the hands of Jim Kropfeld who went on to drive the Budweiser unlimited. I built the owner of this boat five boats and he gave this one back to me for my house. It's always been my favorite. You may notice it has a AAR 1978 Indycar paint job on it as requested by the owner having just been to the 500.
Looking forward to seeing you at a race.
Jon

[racerdad2]

Fantastic craftsmanship. Truly inspirational !