Oil Pump/Filter combos on FV?

[Matt Clark]

As the offseason kicks in, I've been trying to do more research & understand more about our FV parts & reasons for doing thing the way we do. I stumbled acrossed several threads & such talking about oil pump/filter combos. The standard VW forums don't really cover how we would use them. Fitting it between frame rails would appear to be an issue, but do any of you guys have experience or input with these in a FV application?

There are several manufacturers, but the genuine VW & CB Performance versions appear to be the best from reading a lot of the threads. Anyway, I saw these & thought I'd ask.

http://www.cbperformance.com/Product...oductCode=1791

[sracing]

We have sold several of them to buggy guys and a couple Vintage Vees. The ones I have seen are all the larger gear set (not the 21mm). So you normally don't want them on a Vee. At 5000+ RPM you are wasting a lot of HP. If you have seen them with the 21mm gear set they would be fine and actually a nice setup if they fit your frame.

We carry them in stock, but unless requested don't use them on FV engines. BTW, the pump section is built different so you can't easily use a stock 21mm pump with this external filter and plate assm.

[Matt Clark]

Thanks Jim. I at least figured the big 30mm+ pumps would be too much for us. Makes sense the smaller pumps are more desirable for higher RPM.

The other thing I am still kinda fuzzy on is if it would be possible to swap the covers & maintain my existing pump. Some of them are pretty far offset, but some like this vintage EMPI looks more compact. I was thinking a stubby filter might just work. I know there are plugs & stuff in some of the pumps which can be taken out to change oil flows.

I guess I need to better understand the oiling system & paths. Ideally, I picture using a filter/pump & an oil cooler mount on top of the case without the oil line running between them. Simple, compact install & cleaner oil changes.

[sracing]

Matt, On the ones I have seen, no you can't just replace the cover(w/filter) and use the existing pump. The oil holes do not line up across the two units. (and with the smaller offset due to the smaller pump, the filter unit interferes with the case anyways.
I am sure with some drilling, grinding, etc. you COULD make it work, but probably not worthe the effort.)

I gather you just want a full flow system without the external lines? Not something I would worry much about.

The contermporary system (non-ful flow) does plenty of filtering. The only oil that bypasses the filter just dumps into the case and will eventually get filtered. Your bearing journals always get clean oil. The main advantage of the full flow system is cooling. All oil flows through the cooler. If you don't have a cooling issue, it is not anything to worry about. The bypass valve opens at ~50+ lbs (to protect the cooler from blowing). If you want you can always just stretch the spring on the bypass valve to let even less oil bypass. However, at operating temps, not much oil gets through the bypass anyways.

If you just want an easy way to change the filter and are fine with the non-full flow system, just use the oil manifold block. (like ours) http://www.sracing.com/Store/FV_Stuff/srblock2.jpg

We build these for either ful flow or non full flow. (Of course if you use it as full flow you need one exernal oil line.) In non full flow there are no external lines and everything mounts to the block. (Type 4 VW cooler and filter.) If you are using an aftermarket cooler we can also build it to that, but then of course you would have external lines also.

Don't know how yours is plumbed, but give us a call and we can give you several options available.

Jim

[Mark_Silverberg]

These are good units for vintage cars which do not spend much time above 5000 rpm and have sufficient frame width to accomodate the filter. There is a special low profile john deere filter that works and clears the shift linkage..

These will fit in a early zink and perhaps an autodynamics - but not much else.

[Matt Clark]

Thanks for the info guys. I think I am catching on. I'd love to find an illustration that shows/explains all of the oil ports/plugs. Found a perfect one for Porsches, but that doesn't help my case.

I have seen a couple of the "just the cover" filter adapters, including "factory" ones below they started putting on the Mexican Beetles, but you are right, most are different sizes. I am not sure yet what size gears they use.

If possible, I will admit that I would prefer a "self contained" full flow system without a remote filter or a external line running to the top of the engine (just less "stuff" there), but it was more of a curiousity deal. Right now, I have a manifold block on top of the engine similar to the SR block with the filter & cooler, and a fitting with a line from the oil pump. It's not a big deal, but it would be nice to not have oil on everything when I pull the filter off. (And yea, I know... wrong class for that!)

I have had issues with keeping the oil temperature down even with my full flow setup now, but that was due to a poor scoop/ducting setup for the oil cooler. I now have good ducts on it, so I'm thinking that should take care of the temperature there.

As you can tell, I like pictures to show exactly what I mean, so I will post a pic of my car when I get home. Obviously there won't be anything special going on, but you can at least see what I have.

[sracing]

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...in/VW16006.jpg

Save this image and blow it up with an photo editor to get a better view.

This might help a little bit.

[Matt Clark]

Thanks Jim. That does help. Do you happen to know of anything like this, so I understand what oil passages are what when I look at the case?

Also attached is a pic of my current setup. Pretty standard.

[sracing]

Matt, Do you have the HP book "How to Rebuild Your VW A/C engine?" It has some pretty good drawings and photos in there, that show the oil paths and how all the valves, etc. work. We have the book in stock if you need one.

From your picture, your engine is currently a full flow set up. If you wanted to get rid of the external line, you would just remove the oil pump, remove the plug that is installed in the pressure side and then replace the cover with the plain stock cover. Then just install a cap on the fitting on the oil manifold block where the line used to connect. That gets rid of the external plumbing. There are some other plumbing options also, if you want to call, we can talk about them.

It also looks like you have the 5 row cooler installed. There is a 7 row cooler also. Not sure how much room you have, but if it can be installed that gives you a bit more cooling.

Jim

[sracing]

Matt,

A bit off course, but. I don't see any support that secures the manifold to the case. With pull on the throttle rod and the shaking that the engine does (and thin manifold tubing) they are prone to cracking. You normally want some kind of mount that secures the carb/manifold to the case. Just a small bracket that goes from a carb stud to the fuel pump stud is fine.

I can't see how that throttle rod is driven, but it seems the way yours is that at full throttle you could be putting lots of strain on the carb/manifold. And full throttle adjustment would be very critical. (Either pulling to hard on the carb or not getting WOT. A cable is usually better since it will stretch enough to prevent this. With a solid rod, a stiff spring is normally used instead of a direct hard pull. I can't see your complete setup, so you may have that addressed somehow already.

Want some more? I think you will find that your oil pressure sender line (copper) will crack over time. I would use SS braided line at that point. Or use an electrical sender and gauge to get rid of the oil in the cockpit potential leak completely. Make things a bit easier also.

[Matt Clark]

Nope, I do not have any books yet. I had planned on getting some. I probably should do that sooner than later.

I think I want to wait & see exactly how the car cools now that I have new ducting before I change from full flow or a new cooler. I think that is the 5 row, and would have to double check for clearance before I got a bigger one. I just put a Vortech clamshell on it, and hope that fixes it. My old duct was admittedly junk.

The carb support is there, just kinda hard to see in that pic. It attaches to the rear carb/manifold stud. It runs straight back inline with the throttle rod. There's a bellcrank that runs that rod off of a cable. It works kinda nice, but is a little cluttered & tough to work around. I do keep after it for proper adjustment, but thats mainly so I make sure I get WOT.

That oil sender line is already on the list to take care of. I've had issues taking the engine out where I thought I kinked it. The plan is to get an AIM dash & new electronic sensors at some point. But I do like the idea of more stainless again!

Pretty much everything is the same as when I bought the car, and I am finally comfortable enough to start changing things around. I just need to understand what & why to change. I've been picking the brains of anyone who will listen on anything & everything. I've got a basic list of things I know I need or want to do right now, so I will probably call in a couple weeks before I really go crazy with stuff. Thanks!


edit- I did have more details, but the page timed out & I lost it all & didn't have time to retype it all over. This covers most of it, though....

[sracing]

Ok, Great. Let us know when you want to do the changes. (We carry the AIM stuff, all plumbing fittings and lines, and of course the VW book.)

[sracing]

Just a note. As you probably know, on a wet sumped Vee, the most critical issues are oil levels, windage, sump pick-up design, etc. (while keeping blowby to a minimum and HP to a maximum.) If your existing system works, be very carefull making changes. Either the full flow, or non-full flow systems can work fine. But any external changes in plumbing may require close watch of your levels, etc. Ferdinand was not advised about 1.6 G corners and 7000 RPM in his design process.