Brake Pads, what's in your calipers?

[Bill Bonow]

Since the inception of FST, we have tried all sorts of brake pads from super trick Ferodo's to $5.00 per axle set no name, made in India stock pads.

With about 10 years into this thing, I thought we could compare notes.

One thing for certain, I have never managed to wear out a set of pads. The best I got was 36 races before I chickened out and replaced. The minimum I got was about 25, but they still had meat on them.

The racing pads I have tried are too "bitey", hard as a brick, no feel and lock up very easy. The super cheap India pads were OK and lasted very well, but my bet is the friction coefficient was terrible. I found the best pads (so far) to be OEM VW of Mexico Varga. Excellent feel, good stopping power and solid life. I found that pad management (fancy word for moving them around to different calipers) would really stretch out the life.

We don't really have any catastrophic issues to talk about in FST, so I figured a thread on pads could give us something to pass the time until the 2013 FST season is announced (in a few days)

[romoman]

In tin tops, I've noticed that lots of people fall into the "everyone likes this pad" trap. Most have too much initial bite and cause people to over brake. When it comes to braking, sometimes less is more!

[gbmetcalf]

Bill or anyone:
Have any of you experienced trailing/leading arm damage with the "racing" pads like some FV drivers are having when they put more aggressive shoes/pads on the rear tires?

G.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Bill,

Thanks for the info regarding the brake pads. That will save me a lot of time and money experimenting.

Brian,

Blake Tatum runs a Crusader FST out here on the left coast. It is basically a converted FV. When he first started out he found that the rear trailing arms, that he used on the FV, were not acceptable for the FST as they would bend under hard braking.

[SamF]

Bill or anyone:
Have any of you experienced trailing/leading arm damage with the "racing" pads like some FV drivers are having when they put more aggressive shoes/pads on the rear tires?

G.

I can confirm that even with the “non-racing pads” you can very quickly break Vee leading arms on a FST. At Nelson this year, the first time my car hit the track as a FST, it broke two leading arms very quickly. One broke at the weld, and the 2nd fractured the tube at about the mid-point. What I now have are very heavy 1.5 inch tubes gusseted at the wheel end and they seem to be doing the trick. The “non-racing pads” have more than enough grab to break or bend Vee leading arms.

[Bill Bonow]

GBM,

Sometimes you get so familiar with what your doing, you forget that others may not know all the details.

Early on in development of the Evolution, we had the same issue of bending trailing arms. Larry changed the design to have twin tubes in a "V" configuation and solved that issue 100%.

The biggest thing to remember is that accelleration load is mostly torque applied to the axle shaft, while braking torque is all on the axle tube/flange. Trailing/leading arms take a HUGE amount of load under braking. Pad types/compounds can have some bearing on the amount of torque, but most likely not enough to find the difference between a strong or week arm design (leading or trailing).

In many cases, converted FV rear arm designs have worked just fine. If your FV has a "so-so" arm set up that is vulnerable to bending to start with, once converted it will most likely be a weak spot and need a stronger design.

[gbmetcalf]

Bill I saw the twin tube design that Larry designed. I remember my Auto D MK4 had a simular design. I have designed a 1.5"od x 095w chromemoly arm that might help I am having a prof. welder make some up to see if they help. I also took the suspension pickup out of the tube and put it out at the plate to get away from drilling a hole thru the arm causing a stress point that could cause a failure. here is a rendering of one of the versions.

G.

http://s231.beta.photobucket.com/use...39607149034044

[Bill Bonow]

GBM,

I'm assuming those arms are for the Laser Mk 3?

Back to pads, I'm assuming we're all using the later sytle 2 pin caliper? Seems like someone might have a story about other brands/compounds?

Or is this just too much of a non-issue

[G.B.]

I am sure you remember the leading arm failure on the Jacer at Grattan in ’05, I am sure Greg Schings does!

[Bill Bonow]

GB,

Going on 8 years ago, good memory. That was the point when the Schings cut the back half off the car and replaced many of the Jacer components. Dr. Doug Sharp now has that car (4 owners down the road) and has turned into a pretty decent car again. It now has a pair of Campbell Motorsport trailing arms.

[rgu]

Both the RGU Racing Evolution and Mysterian both have used the "Team India" $15 pads all of last season. I'm pretty positive they will last thru the end of 2013. We keep a set of hi bite pads in the trailer in case we want to smooth out the track surface or in case car weight is doubled for some reason.

[sracing]

Thus far in the 3 EVO's and the converted XTC, we have used the Vargas. No problems and no complaints. Replacements have been done each season with some front still left and the rears could have been used another season.

IMO Rob Clark is one of the finest entry brakers out there and he seems to do well with those pads. No flat spots on the tires

[jsteeb]

Hey guys.

I didn't spend a lot of time on the pads that came with my calipers, so right or wrong, here is my take on brake pads...

1) The CFF guys use fancy pads, so why wouldn't we? Our cars weigh the same, and our tires are the same size, etc. All of the math would suggest fancy pads should work.

2) Our racing tires (even the R60A) generate more grip than any street tire ever will. Presumably, they can also handle the faster load build up - due to higher friction levels generated by the fancy pads. Fancy pads will achieve a higher braking force per pound of pedal force, as well as achieve that higher brake force quicker. This means I don't have to stand on my pedal to stop my car, and my car achieves peak braking faster. If nothing else this allows me to use a larger master cylinder, giving me a harder pedal feel. IMHO, this makes the car more comfortable to drive - especially during trail braking and left foot braking (which I do a lot).

3) Our use is much more severe than a stock brake pad was ever intended for. When I ran stock pads, I was always worried about over heating or glazing the pads. Right or wrong, the fancy pads eliminate that thought from my mind. I know (once they are warm) they will have the same initial bite, and same deceleration rate every corner, every lap. This inspires confidence in the cockpit.

4) I don't trust the "stock" aftermarket suppliers to source the same friction material from batch to batch - even if I buy the same brand of pads. I trust KFP to use a consistent recipe, giving them consistent feel/performance from set to set. Just one less variable to worry about.

5) Performance. I don't think brake pads are worth gob loads of time, and I don't have data in my car to tell you the actual performance gain. What I can tell you is that I would put my car up against anybody's, in any braking zone. 2012 Waterford for example... I was hoping Rob would post his video because we had a hell of a scrap. After Doug tried (a couple times), I took the lead by out braking the king of the late brakers (IMO Reece). I thought I was all set, but after Doug and Rob managed to get by Reece, they caught right up to me and clearly had me covered. We all knew the cleanest place to pass is at the end of the back straight, and due to an understeer I was getting a really crappy run onto the straight. Rob got alongside me more than a few times - with the preferred line, and I out broke him every single time. As much as I would like to believe my supreme driving talent won that race , deep down I know it was my KFP brake pads.

Having said all of that... It could be a placebo, and data would show no difference....

Just my $.02.

Cheers!
J

BTW... I get my pads from Averill Racing Stuff, and they last about 8 to 10 race weekends. I can’t remember how much they are, but they’re over $100 per axle set. He has a couple of different compounds (based on feels and operating temp). If you’re interested, give him a call.

[veefan]

Just wondering if anyone has tried either of the EBC compounds?

I've used the green compound on a few of my street cars and they offer a great improvement over OEM.

Unless I'm wrong, looks like they offer both the green and yellow compounds for our application. (street performance and yellow track)

[Doug FST 5]

I've run race pads and street pads and have had good luck racing with both. The race pads I've used have fantastic initial bite. The only caution I'll add is some of them don't release really cleanly once they are hot. No problem on a sticky track but can lead to lock problems on a damp track.

Doug FST 5