Dang, should have sold my NOS COFABS last month. LOL Nice work Steven and all.
Dave
Dang, should have sold my NOS COFABS last month. LOL Nice work Steven and all.
Dave
How do you tell the difference between the different brand pistons? I have a nice set of old pistons that don't have any brand markings, only a few cast numbers and some stamped numbers on the top.
thanks,
Tad
Originally Posted by lenhart05
Tad,
Tell us what the markings are, or submit a pic, and someone on here will certainly be able to identify them.
Here what's on the pistons. Inside: 5191 and c18
pistons
usually the manufacturer's stamp is next to the wrist pin bore so you might turn the piston a bit and take another picture. Have never seen a stamp on the skirt.
Hope this helps
Dietmar
www.quixoteracing.com
I looked over the pistons again and see no other marks than what is seen on the photos. Any ideas?
Tad
Were they in a marked BOX of any sort? If you really have NOTHING, you can use the measurements in the post above and at least know if they are legal for FV. Personally, I have never seen an FV piston with markings like that on the top...
Steve, FV80
Same here. Never seen a set like those. It would be interesting to see the top of the piston from the inside. Also I wonder if these were stamped ("Flywheel") later by someone.
Nevermind
I'm glad you guys don't know what they are! I finally measured one and it is 83mm, 1200 big bore cylinders. I guess I'll put them on Samba.
Back to discussion about legal pistons...
Tad
p.m.sent looking for a couple for a street build.
Dave
So, Just posted, that this has passed.Thank you,
- So the Chinese pistons are OKAY?
- The biggie. Has anyone used them????
i.e.; Can any motor builder comment if they are okay to use reliability wise?- Any update on the availability of jugs?
And - Chinese piston to current jug clearance? Anyone have recent experience on this?
john
John Ferreira
FV 15
John,
1.) Yes ... at least the ones we've seen so far (best to check the measurements to be sure before installing).
2.) Yes - some people have used them. Most notably Mike Palermo (Peak Performance, Colorado) who has been instrumental in achieving their 'legality'. At least a couple of other builders have also used them.
3). Yes ... there don't seem to be any NEW other than Chinese at this time. K/S is apparently seeking a new source, but has nothing confirmed as yet.
Can't comment on your last - hopefully, someone with Chinese experience can reply.
Steve, FV80
The Chinese pistons are garbage. They are being pushed by someone trying to reduce costs, but to this point they have been nothing but trouble.
What was the original market for these pistons? Rebuilding a 50 year old car? Do you know ANY VW shop that has the expertise to order such pistons from China? I guaranty the person who placed the order for such P&B sets had no clue what to specify other than the size. Who has the documentation on these products? Maybe K/S Germany/Brazil, but are they sharing? What is the chance that the iron or aluminum are the proper specification.
On top of that they are not readily available.
Boys and girls, these are race engines when operating above 5000, not dune buggy lumps. Be careful what you feed them!
Brian
No need to be so hysterical Brian. Just because they are legal doesn't mean anyone should or needs to use them without consulting with a physician, errr, I mean engine builder. But it is NOT a bad thing for the class that they are now at least a legal option.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Brian (H),
Your post brings a question to mind... You have posted more than once about the inferior aspects of the Chinese parts. So ... considering the lack of other options, what are YOU using in your engines ?? Do you have a stock of K/S or .... maybe never break a piston?
There seems to be a number of people inquiring what the knowledgeable people SHOULD do for P&C these days....
Steve, FV80
We have built a Vintage Vee and (I think) one regular Vee, plus a street engine (with Chinese). We had no problems with measurements, fly and lathe cutting, or the dyno runs.They are still running. I did no analysis on the metallurgy. (Nor have I done any Metallurgy on the Mahles, KS, etc.) I highly doubt KS's were designed with FV and 7000 RPM in mind either.
Of coarse there is nothing wrong with something that is made in China IF you specify and pay for a high quality part. The P&B and front spindles we know are not being specified as a high quality part for racing. It is all about price. In a real race engine that is usually not the correct approach.
There is no substitute for the K/S sets. I invested in a number of set from the last orders. Just part of the cost of racing if you want to do things right. For someone new, get the wallet out and start looking around.
I have personally never broken a piston. I switch then out when the top ring land clearance gets a little loose, say .0003" wear or the cylinder clearance grows more than .001" from re-honing activities.
Brian
Mahle makes pistons in China
http://www.mahle.com/MAHLE/en/News-a...xpand-in-China
Quality has less to do with country and more to do with the company. Mike P has lots of experience and it would be prudent to learn from what he experienced.
I used a set one time we maybe got 40 laps at Topeka and then one broke off right over top of the top ring land. Im still not sure why. The Jugs are junk also as they do not locate in the case worth a damn and the cooling fins are a joke. You will need to make special bushings to locate the jugs correctly if you use them. Lucky for us we have a small stock of KS pistons and jugs left from a large buy. I wont use the sets from China ever again.
Erik
It seems to me some people have tried the chinese sets and havent had good luck with them! Thats unfortunate.
We have ordered a set of chinese barrels were going to put them on an engine and run them on our dyno. I got to say the pistons don't look promising. We were thinking about running the KS pistons and chinese barrels?
If these Chinese sets are not the answer, what are we going to do for the future of our class? If parts are not available now we will have push our cars around the track! Good thing Mosport is mostly downhill!!
I got to say this frustrating!
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
All the engine builders have enough for the time being, so there is absolutely no urgency for the majority of racers who get their engines from these guys. Sure an individual or two might have trouble sourcing parts, but so what? We can get much deep into the obsolescence hole before the lights really start dimming.
Brian
Last edited by Hardingfv32; 12.23.12 at 3:07 AM.
Those 'individuals' are a VERY IMPORTANT part of the class in my mind. I, for one, DO consider it an issue. The Committee *IS* "looking into it" as best we can. In the meantime, we made an effort to get the rules clarified and modified to allow the Chinese since they do appear to be the ONLY thing currently actually deliverable beyond what's on the vendors and builder's shelves. Incidentally, it still seems that some are thinking that there are NONE available. I just checked to verify that at least QuixoteRacing.com still has K/S and other sets on the shelf and for sale (but no Chinese just yet).
Steve, FV80
Last edited by Steve Davis; 12.23.12 at 9:46 AM. Reason: spelling error
Steve,
Thank you very much for your efforts and for representing this class. I think the move and final decision was a good one.
john
John Ferreira
FV 15
Brian,
Geeze.......How many of those outdated, clunky K/S pistons DID you get stuck with??
"Trying to reduce costs"....Dang, ya got me there!
I have absolutely no idea of what "trouble" you speak. I have personally used between 60 and 80 sets of them, and I would choose them over the K/S if the price was equal. (Ain't even close).
I've had them well over 7,000 many times...no problem.
In decking them to the same heigth as any other, I see NO sinkhole, NO cracks, NO problem.
They come out of the box so much lighter that I must use the (free) stock pin to make legal weight, rather than a far inferior pin that costs in the area of $100 (or more) per set. Why do you think I am selling all my C&A Chromoly pins so cheap?
Yeah, the cylinders have a very narrow shelf....big deal. I use a steel sleeve/bushing with ALL cylinders. I'm surprised anyone is still using o-rings.
Personally, I consider that sloppy.
As was discovered by several of us, the last two orders of K/S cylinders were totally different. The last set was hard as glass, out or round, and varied in lengths.
I have one brand new-in-the-box set of K/S jugs, and they are up for sale.
"Order from China"? Go ahead if you wish.......I pick up the phone, dial the toll free number in CA (California), and I have as many sets as I want in TWO DAYS.
If anyone has a problem doing that, I can ship a dozen of them the next business day at $179/set. (That's (4) each, Pistons, Cylinders, Pins, and Ring sets. (in full disclosure, the next dozen will take a couple more days, as I will need to restock, and single sets are $10 more ($189).
I just get the feeling that some folks were hoarding stuff thinking they were gonna get rich, or corner the market......and I don't see that as being in the best interest of the class.
Just my thoughts, and to each his own.
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!
Mike Palermo Jr.
Peak Performance Racing
FVEEGUY@Yahoo.com
I say, use the Chinese, and beat the snot out of it on the dyno.....I have, without a single problem.
Have you noticed that anyone knocking these pistons has a large inventory of the far more expensive sets?
p.s.....I still enjoy staring at pics on my shop walls from when I ran with some of your predecessors at Mosport and St. Joviet. You guys are a hoot! Great racing to ya!
Mike Palermo Jr.
Peak Performance Racing
FVEEGUY@Yahoo.com
That is exactly why VW modified the ring grooves to 2.0 mm in 1966 and on. Show me a modern automotive piston that has a 2.5mm ring (excluding big diesels that top out under 3,000rpm). I have built hundreds of stock 1200cc engines, and the only way I could prevent the ring grooves from getting beat out within 25,000 miles was to open the top groove .004, install a Perfect Circle .024 steel insert, along with the 2.0mm ring from a 1300cc engine. Again, these were STOCK engines with 3870rpm shift points.
You may or may not know this, but the early sets of AA cylinders came with K/S pistons! AA saw what was there, and (in my opinion) improved the design and replaced them. That is an absolute fact.
You might also wish to reference "STROUT'S' post #58 with the 2003 article on Mahle building and selling 3.2 Billion pistons in CHINA. I would guess they have a pretty good idea on how to build a piston.
If you are convinced the K/S units are superior....run them. That is your option, and I say more power to ya. I just don't see why you have to knock someone for trying to keep costs down. Remember....this is Formula Vee!
Mike Palermo Jr.
Thank you Mike!
Your opinion on these have helped many of the "an individual or two" that Brian speaks of that might have an issue finding parts. I'm all for keeping the costs of racing down.
I worked with a few kart suppliers and local tracks to develop a Chinese "Honda" clone 6.5hp engine classes, you know the engines the ones that all the Honda and Briggs guys said were junk, they would never hold up..... This sounds all too familer. Not only did the clone engines hold up they have become a huge part of entry level karting! When you pay $159.00 for an engine do about an hours worth of work to it and then run the snot out of it for a couple of years then it breaks it owes you nothing!
The same can be said about these pistons and cylinders we can now use in FV.
There will be the usual snobery from a few "serious" racers out there but for the most part I think it will help the weekend "non-serious" racer in the long run.
JMO
G.
G. Brian Metcalf
72 AutoD MK4
1991 Mysterian M2
2014 ALR73 FV/FST
Yep, the original AA's came with the 2.5 ring. Mike seems to have a lot of experience with the Chinese stuff. We have only built 3 with them with no problems. Since till now they weren't even legal it would seem NO one else has much FV experience with them. A single piston failure is hardly evidence of bad production. (at least no worse than ALL 1200 pistons already were.)
After our 3 engines I would accept that the fin surface area MIGHT not provide as much cooling, but thus far we have not seen even that.
They machined fine and blowby volumes and HP on the dyno showed that they broke in just as well as the KS's. While dynamic cooling is a bit tough to judge on the dyno, I saw no real difference.
Allowance of them was a good move and IF there really are defective we will certainly find this out over time. I suspect they are NOT. At this point those complaining of them without any statistical validity are blowing smoke.
German engines with Chinese barrels and pistons?there's gotta be a joke there somewhereIm trying hard to think of one?
G. Brian,
A bit off subject, but your point is well taken. I have a good friend who has a kart shop just up the hill from me, and he just showed me one of those engines. $159!
China is no match for the likes of Honda as far as developing, but they have the "cloning" thing down pat. Ethical, Fair?
Ya think they give a hoot?
One of my madcap diversions is "Project Madness". It is a 2332cc, 220hp VW based engine that I thought would be fun to slap in one of the 5 Vees that I still own just for grins. The set of rods are Carrillo clones out of China.
H-Beam, shuffle-pinned, chrome Moly, incredible tolerances, and complete with ARP-2000 bolts.
I doubt that they go through all the pains that Carrillo does, but I have talked with drag racers using them that tell me they will handle 500 hp, and they run $179/set.!
I've had it over 8,000 on the dyno, and so far, so good. Should be fun.
I've got a set of Porsche 912 rods setting on the bench right now, and the clones make them look like they're carved out of cement. There are Carrillo rods for the 912......around $1200/set.
Mike P.
My impressions I got from the 'smoke' coming from Palermo's engines over the last 4-5 years on the West Coast was that there were piston troubles. This impression was formed from second hand knowledge, so it could be wrong.
The AA name dropping was helpful. I now see their import source and availability. Quality is still a question. We have a product who's main market is street engine VW re-builders (the few still in business) who have customers demanding the lowest cost parts. What is the motivation for AA to provide a quality part? At the prices they charge, what are the chances they have ever been to China to checkout quality control?
But that said, if you have are happy with the circumstances, go head and use them. The average cost sensitive FV competitor will probably be very happy.
Brian
"Don't get so worked up....no one is beating on the Chinese.
It has nothing to do with skin color or nationality. It has to do with where they are in their development of their industrial indentity. At one point early in our industrial revolution....we were the same.
Labor was cheap, time was our own, we were lazy and wasteful with resources and crude in dealing with the environment and disposal of manufacturing by-products. Sounds just like China?
That was our country right before the turn of the last century here in the USA.
Whatever got a product made and out the door and put food on the table.....was the name of the game no matter what.
When I speak of the issues with dealing with China for production quality...right now...I speak from first hand experience.
No....I have not been there...yet. But I have been in over 3000 factories in the past 15 years....many of which deal with Chinese factories directly for raw products.
The quality control ethic in China is terrible. Yes...its improving by leaps and bounds every day. But considering the sheer number of factories and vertically integrated plant systems in China right now....dwarfs the number that ever has been in our country.....means that its a long term issue that they just have to grow out of.
The problem is NOT about intelligence or skin color.
The problem is social strata within the workplace. Much like our country was 100 years ago....China is very "class" oriented.
Those who are in production management in China...are not there because of their abilities. knowledge or eductaion. They are in those positions (generally) because they are family, or are connected.
Smart or diligent workers on the floor...cannot get quality initiatives instigated....because they are simply labor. Their opinion does not count.
I have sat in on a great many conference calls with people in China straightening out QC issues...and this mind-set is pervasive.
The people in charge look down on those who are raw labor. Communication about product QC issues does not travel upstairs to management level in a straight line. Workers are paid by the piece....not by the hour.
Its very difficult to isolate root cause of defects in factories running like this......and even harder to get changes made.
What I'm about to say is common knowledge in many industries in our country........
These "vertically integrated" manufacturing sites in China are a wonderland.
Examples of vertical integration in plants of this type have not existed in this country since the 40's and 50's. They can make ANYTHING....and since most of their equipment is new (whether the quality is first rate or not)....they have the capability to make MOST products (but not all)...at any quality level you desire. The problem is the average worker over there...has no quality background, education or incentive. He gets paid the same for a low quality part as he does for a high quality part.
At this stage....and it is getting better....if you want a quality mass manuafactured part made in China....you can get it....but in the beginning...your QC personnel MUST travel to China...and spend the time to impress upon the managment....what range of parts defects are acceptable...and what are not.
You then must write a contract....that says any defective parts are shipped back to China at their cost to be replaced at their cost....before the initial shipment is payed in full.
In other words...you end up training them to manufacture to your companies specs. After about one more generation of this......China will no longer have this problem. There will be enough quality ethic and vocabulary....that they can compete on any level. We have 5-10 years before this happens. When it does.....if we have not reinvented ourselves here....China will well and truely kick our ass.
I have been on the receiving end of numerous "proof lots"...or collateral production runs.
It goes like this...you get 5 skids of product in.....comparable to one complete order. Your staff spends 24 hours inspecting each of say...10,000 parts. You look at fit, injection molding quality, color and consistency. You look for damage from water and shipping to analayze the packing method......you write a report tallying up the damage and refused parts. You get on a conference call...lay out the law....ship back the crap.....and have your QC guy meet the shipment there a month later in China.....where he goes through the whole dog any pony show in reverse....so they can learn what is not acceptable.
If someone is willing to do all of that....we can have world class chinese pistons. Ray"
Jim and All,Yep, the original AA's came with the 2.5 ring. Mike seems to have a lot of experience with the Chinese stuff. We have only built 3 with them with no problems. Since till now they weren't even legal it would seem NO one else has much FV experience with them. A single piston failure is hardly evidence of bad production. (at least no worse than ALL 1200 pistons already were.
After our 3 engines I would accept that the fin surface area MIGHT not provide as much cooling, but thus far we have not seen even that.
They machined fine and blowby volumes and HP on the dyno showed that they broke in just as well as the KS's. While dynamic cooling is a bit tough to judge on the dyno, I saw no real difference.
Allowance of them was a good move and IF there really are defective we will certainly find this out over time. I suspect they are NOT. At this point those complaining of them without any statistical validity are blowing smoke.
Yup, started installing these in a few engines after showing them to Tech at the Runoffs several years ago, and being told their was no problem.
Yeah, I know, I know. At the time I thought that made it right......I WAS WRONG.
SO, here is my advice to any of my customers who might have these in their race engine:
DO NOT RACE YOUR VEE BEFORE 01/01/2013!
(It was interesting to read that another builder had them in at Topeka, and what does this rule say about the forged pistons that may be out there?).
Mike P.
At this 'moment' who says you are wrong. The parts substitution rule is for 'equivalence'. What is the tolerance being used? This is up to the tech official or appeals court that you might be dealing with. In your example, you were dealing with someone who saw the 'equivalence' the same way you did.
Someone one the FV committee sees it as an absolute, .001 tolerance, issue and the Committee does a bunch of work that ends up with the same AA parts being legal. Very productive!
That use of 'equivalence' is about as useful as 'don't if in doubt'.
Brian
[quote=Hardingfv32;372225]My impressions I got from the 'smoke' coming from Palermo's engines over the last 4-5 years on the West Coast was that there were piston troubles. This impression was formed from second hand knowledge, so it could be wrong.
The AA name dropping was helpful. I now see their import source and availability. Quality is still a question. We have a product who's main market is street engine VW re-builders (the few still in business) who have customers demanding the lowest cost parts. What is the motivation for AA to provide a quality part? At the prices they charge, what are the chances they have ever been to China to checkout quality control?
Brian,
First off, I'm not interested in getting into a pi$$ing match with you, but if you do a bit of research, you willl learn that the owner of the company is Chinese, was born there, and does travel there. Also, the man that runs the company took the position after he had retired and selling his VW performance business and is a very sharp guy. So are you, and I think you would enjoy talking with him.
Also, are you suggesting that you consider the K/S piston to be of racing quality?
As to my "smoking problem". Yup, there was that phase. It was nothing to do with the Chinese pistons, as that was before I used them, Ironically, some of it was caused by two suggestions from no one else but you! I learned that we DO need to drill bleed-off holes in the custom oil ring backers, (Mike Smith's) and that the hone pattern you suggested DID provide for more lubrication for the rings to float on.....remember that?
In all fairness, I was experimenting with some pretty radical oil rings, and the combination was not pretty. That is why I drove to tracks in AZ, CA, OR, and WA. Wasn't fun watching that, but I had to see it myself. (Darn good time to thank the guys for sticking with me!)
The most common complaint I get now is that they have a hard time reading the oil on the dipstick. I can live with that. I just drill a series of holes in the stick.
Happy Holidays to you and yours,
Mike
1) Of coarse if you read the long quote at the end of my post, it would imply that someone born in China is not generally the solution to quality issues. That is of coarse a generalization.
2) K/S pistons are not racing quality, but they are ready for racing after I rework them. No need for me to develop the AAs, as I have committed supply of K/S for the rest of my FV career.
3) A lot of my opinion about the AAs was based on what I saw from your engines on the track.
Brian
Are you saying Brian H. has a bad piston?At this point those complaining of them without any statistical validity are blowing smoke.
If you have a lifetime supply of K/S than why are you still talking about the Chinese pistons. stop posting on this thread. And the let the rest of us AVERAGE people talk about the situation. All that you do is make everyone frustrated on this forum!
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
I was expecting a permanent ban after post #71.
Last edited by problemchild; 12.23.12 at 6:28 PM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Reviewed post # 71. Although Brian's method and delivery may not be the smoothest, there are no Apexspeed rules currently being violated. But be aware, the thread is being closly watched. At the first sign of personal attacks, the thread will be shut down and penalties issued.
Nothing currently posted has crossed the line, however, be warned that any personal attacks will not be tolerated on Apexspeed.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Sorry, didn't mean to be a buzz-kill on this thread. It's a really good topic and glad to see that progress is most likely coming in the FV P & C arena. Availability has been a looming issue, but looks to be improving with help from the FSRAHC and the CRB.
Last edited by Bill Bonow; 12.23.12 at 9:34 PM.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
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