Paddock vs. Paddock...

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

Here is a European Formula 3 garage and paddock area compared to an American Formula ? garage and paddock area. Seems like our whole motorsports industry here is far behind the modern times, especially in circuit and team development. But why are we so behind?...it doesn't have to be this way. Why can't we take just 1 small page out of their book? Their book of doing and running it the right way...professionally. COTA has now become the benchmark and standard which all American tracks should be measured against. A circuit with proper, professional facilities for all formulas.

[gord leach]

I guess We are some Hicks out here.......44' enclosed with a Tractor, hauls 5 and tons of spares, mobile hoist/engine crane and piles of amber liquids.

Home made canopy, BBQ onboard along with generator, pancake grill, toaster and coffee maker.

Sleeps as many as You wish

We like to enjoy family/friends racing, camping and relax as it's NOT a means of Our livelyhood to Us.



If We had $$$$ sponsors and rental Drivers footing the Bills things could be Different.

Supporting Our "habit" along with a Family and owning a Company, makes the fun aspect more important than showing off a perfect Paddock in My opinion.

You mileage may vary.

[KenT]

That is not a very fair comparison. Club racers versus full pro operation.

I have seen some pretty impressive rigs for Atlantic series, pro Mazda, and ALMS support series teams at the pro weekends. Hardly fair to compare a club spec miata driver to a pro F3 team. I have seen pictures of club level Europeans pulling open trailers behind sedans as well.

[gmac]

I guess We are some Hicks out here.......44' enclosed with a Tractor, hauls 5 and tons of spares, mobile hoist/engine crane and piles of amber liquids.

Home made canopy, BBQ onboard along with generator, pancake grill, toaster and coffee maker.

Sleeps as many as You wish

We like to enjoy family/friends racing, camping and relax as it's NOT a means of Our livelyhood to Us.



If We had $$$$ sponsors and rental Drivers footing the Bills things could be Different.

Supporting Our "habit" along with a Family and owning a Company, makes the fun aspect more important than showing off a perfect Paddock in My opinion.

You mileage may vary.

You forgot that it takes a good beating from Shelekins Pop Up!

[gfastr]

Here is a European Formula 3 garage and paddock area compared to an American Formula ? garage and paddock area. Seems like our whole motorsports industry here is far behind the modern times, especially in circuit and team development. But why are we so behind?...it doesn't have to be this way. Why can't we take just 1 small page out of their book? Their book of doing and running it the right way...professionally. COTA has now become the benchmark and standard which all American tracks should be measured against. A circuit with proper, professional facilities for all formulas.

Do you want all the frills, or do you want to RACE? Any guesses what the track rental will be the common folk to use CoTA? For what it will cost I'll bet you could get Summit Point for a week.

[Wren]

You can't be serious. You are trying to compare professional teams where a season's rental for a single car costs a little under a million dollars to club racers?

Does every club racer in Europe have a rig that looks like the one in your photo? Of course they don't. Based on pictures and coverage that I see online, I believe that on average American club racers have nicer rigs and paddock setups than our European counterparts. The biggest differences seem to be in the costs to own, license and store large trucks and trailers in the US. Fuel price also play a role.

If you get your series off the ground, do you expect that everyone will show up with a setup similar to the OP? Especially when you are trying to badger people into purchasing obsolete F3 cars for $20k? The guy who buys a $20k car is going to be the guy who shows up driving his own rig, wrenching on his own car, and maybe has his wife, kid, or a friend there to help him get strapped in. The guys who have an 18-wheelers with full time employees are not going to show up until you have a proven product. Weren't you posting in another thread that you were showing up to a race without even a set of scales or a proper set up on the car? Maybe you could provide us with a photo of your rig and normal paddock space?

I think people on here are largely ignoring you and assuming that eventually you will see the impossible task you have in front of you. The condescension and thread hijacking is getting old.

Here is a European Formula 3 garage and paddock area compared to an American Formula ? garage and paddock area. Seems like our whole motorsports industry here is far behind the modern times, especially in circuit and team development. But why are we so behind?...it doesn't have to be this way. Why can't we take just 1 small page out of their book? Their book of doing and running it the right way...professionally. COTA has now become the benchmark and standard which all American tracks should be measured against. A circuit with proper, professional facilities for all formulas.

The American motorsports industry is not behind anything, they just have a different focus.

Maybe you could clarify exactly what it is that the European teams are doing so much more professionally? apples to apples

Exactly how many American road course garage and paddock areas have you been in, especially at a club race?

As for COTA, there is a lot that remains to be seen about the track. They clearly built a world class facility, but that only matters for F1. I don't care if they have gold plated toilets if the track sucks.

My personal standards for paddock facilities are that as long as a track has a paved paddock, flushing toilets, and a shower with hot water then I am good to go. Most everything beyond that is window dressing that we have to pay for but contributes nothing to the racing.

A perfect example would be the Barber track in Alabama. As a facility, it is world class. Everything about it is incredibly well taken care of and very pretty. There is only one real problem with it, the track is not very good to race on. The track is narrow, twisty and doesn't have any great passing opportunities. As a consequence, I prefer the 14 hour tow to Road America over the 45 minute drive to Barber.

My initial impression of COTA is that there is enough straightaway to allow for some passing opportunities and I am interested in hearing how the racing actually goes in March. They have a giant tower to stand in? Who cares?

[BURKY]

These FF do not look US?

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

If We had $$$$ sponsors and rental Drivers footing the Bills things could be Different.

Yes, and that is part of the problem which compounds in on itself. The Corporate Sponsors don't want to sponsor anything unless it is a professional operation with high-visibility.

To them sponsoring a team is a reflection of their own company and their products and/or services, and they require a professional Series with good teams and media involvement.

It is like a vicious circle, they don't give the money to turn us all into a professional teams. It's just like that spoof in the Pixar Cars movie with Lightining McQueen, Rust-eze and Dinoco.

[tonyave]

North America has a literal Motorsports machine called NASCAR that dwarfs anything seen in Europe except F1. The difference here is that the NASCAR tracks make huge money, whereas most F1 events need government subsidies to survive past the first few years of excitement.

Theres an awful lot of posting on this (F3) subject on this site regarding a series that doesn't exist. There are several oval racing series (pavement and dirt) that have pretty impressive traveling circuses, something that most road racing aficionados don't think about.

Oval racing in NA is what road racing in Europe is. That's the proper comparison, not F3 there to some club event here. Every good WoO race here turns a lot more profit than a comparable F3 race does there. Don't even try to compare T shirt sales.

The real pros here make money from their results. The pros in F3 there are the team owners taking money from rent a drivers.

I love F3 too, but it is what it is, you don't have more money in your pocket after a good season, the team you are paying does. Not true of Scott Bloomquist.

There, that oughta generate some fun reading.....

Tony Ave

[Mike B]

I love F3 too, but it is what it is, you don't have more money in your pocket after a good season, the team you are paying does. Not true of Scott Bloomquist.

No mullets in F3, though.

[tonyave]

Heheh. That's good......

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

You are trying to compare professional teams where a season's rental for a single car costs a little under a million dollars to club racers?

[FONT=Verdana]These pictures are from a Spanish Formula 3 race where the cost to run 1 car for a full season is $200,000 USD which is less than the Star Mazda Series, (and some other American Series’).
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Spain is a country where the current unemployment level is above 25%, almost quadruple our own. How do they find the money? Me, I would love a gold plated toilet!, but don’t hate me for it. [/FONT]

[tonyave]

As I said, they SPEND 200K.

The people I refer to MAKE 200K.

You realize the technical nightmare of mixing and matching an amalgamation of cars built over a number of years and actually policing them to create/maintain equality ? Which is what you are essentially selling by promoting the cheap buy in. Cause if winning your series was important, I or those like me would buy one of every version we think could win, then pick what works best. Which will likely change from track to track. Now who is saving money.....

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

Is that what you do when you enter your FF or F? whatever in your field of cars which I'm sure ranges in a 20-year timeline? How is that any different or any better? Do you have 10 different makes, models and year's of F? cars for all your different circuits?

My response wasn't directed towards you by the way, it was a correction to someone else that F3 budgets aren't a million dollars over there in Europe. Infact they are very much on the same levels as other comparable formulas are here in the states.

[Wren]

[FONT=Verdana]These pictures are from a Spanish Formula 3 race where the cost to run 1 car for a full season is $200,000 USD which is less than the Star Mazda Series, (and some other American Series’). [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Spain is a country where the current unemployment level is above 25%, almost quadruple our own. How do they find the money? Me, I would love a gold plated toilet!, but don’t hate me for it. [/FONT]

From what I can tell the Spanish F3 championship hasn't existed for years. That is RP motorsports who won the Euro F3 championship this year. No one is getting a ride in those cars, with that team, for $200k.

You read my entire post and that is what you had to say?

You won't have any trouble finding very nice paddock setups in everything from club racing on up.

What exactly was the point of this thread? Other than to tell us how screwed up American paddocks are with irrelevant examples?

You still haven't shown us a picture of your paddock.

Is that what you do when you enter your FF or F? whatever in your field of cars which I'm sure ranges in a 20-year timeline? How is that any different or any better? Do you have 10 different makes, models and year's of F? cars for all your different circuits?

No, everyone shows up and the fastest car wins. They don't try to equalize them.

[tonyave]

Actually I bought out the best and most successful Trans Am builder (Riley and Scott), and got my hands on the best of the rest (Rocketsports, Pratt and Miller, Weaver, etc). Then I built the best version I could and I steadily update them. And at the moment we have a pretty good advantage over the rest. So yes. That's what I do. Exactly.

I just sold my 13th car this week, (they are 225k each) we've won in Trans Am here, in the Wesbank Series in South Africa, the Sport Sedan Series in Austrailia and the Central American Series which I personally have run in off and on for 15 years. So, I have a little history in the business. Not to mention being a part owner of the current TA series.

My business model makes no claim to sell a bargain car, just the fastest ones. Yours is a little more difficult because you are trying to gain entrants based on dollar value, the problem being is that you really have no way of controlling that. That's all I'm saying.....

I feel like you would have a much better shot promoting a new Atlantic series in Canada due to its history there, cater to guys who can afford to race, otherwise you will spend the rest of your life dealing with tire kickers. No pro series can live off that.

Just a little insight from my experience. But good luck either way. It is always good to see someone going for it.

Tony Ave

[JohnPaul]

[FONT=Verdana]I'd love to see that guy in the sombrero whoop your ass for trying to belittle him. He has a big smile on his face and is obviously having fun. The crap that come out of your mouth is puzzling. You are the only one that looks like a jack*ss not him. Everyone that reads your crap knows you’re a joke and will never get anything off the ground. Your linked in account shows you've been at this for 3 years. Even Jon Lewis is more credible than you. You best bet is to keep your mouth shut and produce some results because obviously you were never taught how speak to people or behave.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I'd bet my left nut you don't even have a crappy trailer to call your own.[/FONT]

[tonyave]

Did I miss something?

Shoot......

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

Did I miss something as well? JohnPaul, we're obviously not friends, nor see that status changing in the future, but I don't talk like that to you or anyone else on here. Are you drunk right now? Letting your emotions run a little too extreme there, or just always that disrespectful? I guess it's too hard to be friends with everyone on here. but I'm not worried.

[JohnPaul]

1) not drunk (although that would be a good excuse for the nonsense you write)
2) not your friend
3) you are a clown

Reading your posts is like listening to a clueless 16 year old that knows nothing of the real world. It's annoying

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

Well then why are you here? Simply move on and don't come back to these Formula 3 sections. You're not welcomed here anyways. Don't read my words, it's as simple as that. Without a doubt your words do make you look like an immature clown, (publicly) while I'm acting as composed and professional as possible. You're not, (and anyone else) is not going to draw me into a back-and-forth public washing of dirty laundry. I'm not on Apex for that. So go vent your frustrations somewhere else and please DON'T come back!

[JohnPaul]

Blah blah blah blah. I'm not going anywhere. You're as professional as a 6 year old selling lemonade on the corner.

[marchsv]

Dear F3,

I vist these pages everyday I enjoy seeing the F3 pictures you post but you sir have done no favors to your cause! I have seen you post In other users for sale adds (Swift FA) that your cars are the only way togo. You now insult many racers that we are hicks or backward for our pits. I don't have a 200k race budget I eat my meals in the pits with my fellow racers. Now you make the assumption that because some post a remark you don't like that they are drunk!

I wish the no luck and will pledge no support for your efforts and will never open one of your for sale adds again!

Sincerely
Tom Balzarini

1979 March Super Vee 79-003SV
1970 Titan MK6 70-638
1969 Exford FV

Novice license 1978 ICCSA

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

I have seen you post In other users for sale adds (Swift FA) that your cars are the only way togo. You now insult many racers that we are hicks or backward for our pits. Now you make the assumption that because some post a remark you don't like that they are drunk!

I have never posted in other users about a Swift FA, what are you talking about. I'm not insulting anyone about being hics, just making a comparison about paddocks, and how could anyone like derogatory remarks made in anyone's direction. Me saying to JohnPaul asking if he was drunk is very tame compared to what he's blabbering about.

[Wren]

[FONT=Verdana] Even Jon Lewis is more credible than you. [/FONT]

Let's not go crazy. Jon Lewis was a scam artist and a thief. The Canadian F3 guy is just rude and clueless.

Did I miss something?

Shoot......

I don't think so. JP is just referencing the picture of the guy in the sombrero that CF3C chose to stand up as an example of why American motorsports suck and we should all go buy F3 cars and listen to him and let him tell us what we should be doing.

I don't talk like that to you or anyone else on here. Are you drunk right now?

The way that you talk to people on here is plenty disrespectful.

I'm acting as composed and professional as possible.

[Daryl DeArman]

suggestion....take it for what it's worth/not worth.

A "promoter" recently ripped a few people off here. There were red flags in his initial posts and his general attitude that seemed to get overlooked because of the product he was promoting. Now people have their antennae up and there are some similarities in your style.

You may wish to peruse the Jon Lewis related threads here, see if you can pick up on some similarities in your approach. You can then decide if maybe a different approach might be best.

*** I'm not suggesting that you are a con-man, just suggesting your approach might raise some flags ***

[Wren]

I have never posted in other users about a Swift FA, what are you talking about. I'm not insulting anyone about being hics, just making a comparison about paddocks,

No, it was Russ' Swift FF thread.

http://apexspeed.com/forums/showpost...1&postcount=11

What you wrote was more annoying and inappropriate before the edit.

You've also taken a shot at formula car builders here:

http://apexspeed.com/forums/showpost...1&postcount=26

You're MO has been to run down other series and cars. This thread is just another one.

[starkejt]

I'm glad I didn't miss this one. It's way more insightful than the OP's last thread complaining about how the yacht parking in Monrovia is piss poor as compared to Monaco.

[Brett Lane]

1) not drunk (although that would be a good excuse for the nonsense you write)
2) not your friend
3) you are a clown

Reading your posts is like listening to a clueless 16 year old that knows nothing of the real world. It's annoying

JP, Tell us how you really feel, and don't sugar coat anything!

I'm laughing so hard I think I pissed my pants!

[carnut169]

The moderator in me wants to lock/ delete/ edit this thread for so many reasons.

IMHO best chances for these cars here would be for someone to import/ rent them. It would be a hoot to drive one. Unfortunately, you'd likely be racing the only one which is more like a time trial while most on Apexspeed prefer to race someone.

Most on Apex are also working on their own cars and towing the rig with the truck they drive to work. They make large sacrifices to participate in the sport they love. See the guy with the sombrero? He is smiling. Would the smile be larger if he was driving an F3 with a team of 5 doing the work.... I doubt it.

No one wishes CFC3 ill will, but slamming club racers for no reason is a quick way to be put into the same box as a guy like Lewis, and may turn off a potential buyer.

[Steve Bamford]

[quote=carnut169;368433]The moderator in me wants to lock/ delete/ edit this thread for so many reasons. [quote]

Sean now if you did that you would take all the fun out of the thread & us club racers would be left wondering why we do such a horrible job with our paddocks.

FYI, so far it hasn't come up but don't lump all of us North of the border as clueless as some posters.

[RussMcB]

... don't lump all of us North of the border as clueless.

Ha! We (south of the border) could kick your ass in that category. For every one of yours we could put up a hundred. Bring it on if you think you can compete with the Big Dogs. They don't come more cluelesser than us, rookie. :-).

[nordberg]

I’ve been following these F3 posts, and from what I see, and whether some of you like it or not, the guy does make a lot of sense. Why would I buy an inferior car for the same price with worse reliability? It comes down to pure logic really.

And to JohnPaul, your comments were way out of line. Look at what just came out of your mouth, absolutely ridiculous! Seems to me that you are the one who looks like the jack*ss clown now!

[Kazis31]

Water is still boiling on Apex.
Good to see how passionate about racing everyone is out here.
Racing is very frustrating if approached from business stand point and everyone knows that ,regardless of being in Europe,US or Australia.
F3 guy is going bit over board with pushing his series and cars ,but in my opinion he's just trying to show price comparison between less advanced and slighthy slower cars we spend same money on.
I think even average club racer would want to see himself in safer .more advanced race cars for same dollar amount.
That's what F 3 cars are .Also Renault 2.0 and much more expensive 3.5 fall in the same category.
I'm from Europe originally myself and can say for sure racing is much more expensive there than it is here in US ,as well as income differences are vast(even in broken economy)
However open wheels are huge in European market and all around the world when here in US it's mediocre at best.
That's way to actually make new series happen and be financially successful it will take tens of millions invested at least ,and that is a lot of money to ask up front in almost non existing market.
With that said you would have to be slightly mad and overly pushy to get it off the ground without big bucks.
Overall i think we should all schill for Holidays,let F 3 guy sell some cars and may be some good will come out of it.

P.S.
I do believe that with time open wheel racing will get more popular in US.
Otherwise i wouldn't be doing it.
Look how popular go karts have become in last 5 years,and they are very roots of formula racing.

[Alouette61]

I’ve been following these F3 posts, and from what I see, and whether some of you like it or not, the guy does make a lot of sense. Why would I buy an inferior car for the same price with worse reliability? It comes down to pure logic really.

Because if i can race with 20-25 other FF.
Buy 3 sets of FF tires for one F-3 set.
No need to buy expensive wing parts.
And mostly manage set-ups that normal human brain can handle and spend more time on track than in a superb garage...

F-3 are very nice cars, but i dont think i own a inferior car because FF dos not have wings and is popular in my area...

[a. pettipas]

I don't understand why the sombrero has not been widely embraced by NA motorsports weekend warriors and consummate professionals alike?... Affordable, stylish, sun-protective headwear for summer months at the track. Thanks for planting the seed CF-3PO, this could be big and I'm not talking just brim O.D.

[Wren]

I’ve been following these F3 posts, and from what I see, and whether some of you like it or not, the guy does make a lot of sense. Why would I buy an inferior car for the same price with worse reliability? It comes down to pure logic really.

Your mistake is in assuming that the cars that are here are inferior. An FF/FC is different, not inferior. Pure logic?
There is nothing magical about having a car made of carbon fiber instead of steel. It is just a lot more expensive to repair when you crash it.
I can't imagine why anyone would buy one of these F3 cars. They are cool, but so what? You can run them in the club, but you won't have anyone to race with. Most people here are not interested in running around having a race with no one. FF and FC have great competition here in well run events. That is why they are so much more desirable than an F3 car.
CF3C makes it sound like there is some meaning to being faster than other people in your group that aren't in your class. More cluelessness. If I get in an F3 car and go faster than someone who is actually good but is driving an FF, then so what?

[Brett Lane]

You know, I think you're on to something. A simple sombrero during the day-something light enough would beat a ball cap any day. Much more shade...

Then a fancier one- maybe with the little dingleberries hanging around the rim for later during the social event, or any respectable party for that matter.

[Steve Bamford]

Ha! We (south of the border) could kick your ass in that category. For every one of yours we could put up a hundred. Bring it on if you think you can compete with the Big Dogs. They don't come more cluelesser than us, rookie. :-).

I guess that is hard to argue but currently I see two "Interesting" threads started from people north of the border it seems they are competing very well currently.

[Wren]

F3 guy is going bit over board with pushing his series and cars ,but in my opinion he's just trying to show price comparison between less advanced and slighthy slower cars we spend same money on.
I think even average club racer would want to see himself in safer .more advanced race cars for same dollar amount.
That's what F 3 cars are .

You don't get it either. Who cares how fast it is? What exactly is more advanced about it? And he seems to be pushing the old obsolete, uncompetitive cars.