FF video
Wow! What a great video. It shows that most of us could really benefit from driving instruction. I always wanted to see a pro driver in a Vintage FF.
Peter, I was able to enter in your driver training at my first time at Watkins Glen and it was totally worth it. When I am able to come back out, you will surely get my business.
I would like to see the drive of some others at that track that weekend and compare...
Mike Winebrenner
For reference, if both of our data systems are to be believed, we average 110 MPH entering T-1, he does 120 - 122 MPH (with no draft). We hit 120 MPH - 124 (in a draft) entering T-12, he hits 131 MPH. No he is not 10 MPH faster on to the straights.
Roland Johnson
San Diego, Ca
Very nice video with data. May I ask about the camera you used?
Also would you mind disclosing your gearing for COTA? Your tires (I assume Dunlops or Avons) and ring/pinion (I assume 9:31 for the Titan) and data speed/rpm suggest you used a 25:26 fourth. Correct?
Since I didn't get to go to COTA this time, I'd like some indication of gearing that worked for folk. Gearing plus tire and R/P info would be greatly appreciated.
I also note from the video that SVRA apparently doesn't mind an AIM. I was told I'd need to re-install my mechanical tach, would love to hear that's not true.
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
Bob, the camera is a GoPro Hero 2. The Traqmate TraqDash HD can turn the camera on and off and syncs the video to the data. The Traqview software places the speed, g's, lap timing onto the video after the fact, then you can burn a video file, like this one.Originally Posted by Robert J. Alder
I am not privy to the gearing on this particular car, but I can tell you that the fastest guys in S2 (Formula Ford on slicks and steroids <grin>) were running short, SHORT lower gears and I ran a 3 under top with a 10/31 in my 2-liter car and ran out of gear after the first session.
As you can see, the track has four corners that are at or under 40 mph, so as slow or slower than T11 at MRLS or Namerow at Le Circuit. WAY slower than any track we have here in the East.
Not sure where you thought that. A significant number of cars use electronic instrumentation, AiM MXL, RacePak G2X or IQ3, Stack ST8100, MoTeC. There has NEVER been a prohibition by SVRA against this sort of equipment.
I'll close by saying that the terminal speed has SO much more to do with other factors than the motor, although you need a good one at the top level.
My new QSRE performed flawlessly. I averaged 132-133 in my old "barn-door" S2 and the other Tiga under my tent had an Ivey that barely broke 126-127. So there's the spread.
I was at the front of the group and nobody out dragged me. Every one of the top half of the field use Quicksilver or Elite engines. 'Nuff said.
Ryan's corner speeds were equal to mine (and me on slicks?!?!?!). I SUCKED in Turn 8 and I still was doing 2:22-2:23's, so I can EASILY see how he did his times, along with Wade Cunningham.
We, in the end, are all just fat old men...Ryan weights just 145 lbs....
Last edited by Tigaman; 10.31.13 at 9:29 PM. Reason: Made sure my numbers were right...
-Peter Krause
1984 Tiga SC
www.peterkrause.net
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable in the Racing Equation"
Hahaha! I already gave Ryan that feedback. He just grinned...The video would be a lot smoother if ya didn't run over all those curbs!
Mike, Ryan is special. Winner of the National Scholarship Class in British F3. That is something.
This at the same time F1 pilots Nelson Piquet, Jr., Karun Chandhok, Luca Di Grassi, Jamie Rossiter and Indy Car notables such as Will Power and Ernesto Viso were running the Championship class in that season!
As long as Ryan and Wade want to keep coming to play, we could ALL learn a LOT!
Thanks for the kind words. It's a PLEASURE to do my job every day. Entertaining and illuminating! See you at the track.
-Peter Krause
1984 Tiga SC
www.peterkrause.net
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable in the Racing Equation"
Here's a video of a modern Formula F (very aerodynamic, and soft slick tires)
http://www.kautzracing.com/kautzraci...News_Blog.html
Results & fast laps
Kautz 2:25.0
Bamford 2:26.6
Kephart 2:31.6
Zurlinden 2:29.2
*****I may have gotten bad lap time info, I believe the best times were around 2:21 - 2:22****
Last edited by Roland V. Johnson; 11.01.13 at 8:25 PM. Reason: Better info
Roland Johnson
San Diego, Ca
Just a comment on the cheat/no-cheating debate; watching the video, I didn't see the rev's raise beyond 6500. Seems most non-legal Fords are going to gain on the top end, with a compression bump, or slight cam improvement, and that sure didn't look to be happening. Different gearing between cars can look like a horsepower advantage on the straight, as well. I would expect any pro driver in his element to look like a tiger mixed in with kittens. (Us normal guys)
Yeah, watched it again, and see 6700 isn, but same point.
Kephart is no slouch and he was 6.6 seconds slower than Kautz. Wonder if he wanted an asterisk by Kautz's win? Or if he knew that being a track so new to everybody that some were simply going to figure out the fast way around and get their setup dialed in sooner than others.
The on-board from this past weekends' FF race really doesn't give too much info. The cars he passed like they dropped anchor were 20+ seconds a lap slower. If he was passing top notch car/driver combinations like that it would cause me to raise an eyebrow. It's apparent that he's hustling the car moreso than many on boards I've seen. I'd be concerned about how I'm going to make up 8 seconds a lap, because I'm sure he looks at the video and still sees time he left on the table.
1972 Titan verses modern Piper with Slicks and Honda
Look guys. Just look at the videos and compare where the Titan shifts to 4th both on the back straight and the front straight compared to the Piper Honda. Then watch how the fast the Titan goes through the lower gears compared to the Piper. Then if you are still not convinced look how the Titan continues to accelerate up the hill to turn 1. I wouldn't argue that Ryan isn't a very skilled driver, but the clear evidence is that he is driving a car with a big engine - whether he was aware of it or not. From looking at the discussion thread there is a lot of rationalization going on but no hard facts - except comparing the two videos and the fact that we have a group of people seriously arguing that a 72 Titan on Dunlops can be nearly as fast as a Piper on Slicks with a Honda engine. Since I have owned and raced both a Swift and a Titan, I KNOW what the difference is and there is no way a Titan is going to be able to run with a modern Formula Ford unless the modern formula ford driver is REALLY REALLY SLOW. Dan Cowdrey is demonstrably one of the best vintage FF drivers on the west coast. So we know that's not the issue. Guess what is?
Too many variables to compare shift points in a Honda and a Ford, and the rate of acceleration with unknown gear ratios.
That Titan lost more than 1.5 seconds just from apex of T12 to apex of T20 to Kautz. His lap time was almost 4 seconds slower. I wouldn't call that "nearly as fast" or "run with"
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Sans a teardown, we shouldn't get to call anybody a cheater.
Anybody that's been doing this long enough in mixed run groups knows how much more POWER 7 seconds a lap advantage would take even if you were ONLY making up half of it on the straights, much less all of it on the straights.
Last edited by Daryl DeArman; 11.01.13 at 9:26 PM.
I was going to refrain from posting but feel the need to speak up...
I've known Roland and Dan for many years and have been racing against them for a few of those. I race from a different prep shop, pit apart but have a great relationship because both Roland and Dan are extremely fair. Dan is a good driver who has had success running with us and everywhere else he goes. When I have been lucky to beat Dan he has never failed to congratulate me with nothing but enthusiasm for a good race. When Roland and Dan raise a question about a car's legality I rest assured knowing they are highly educated on the subject and keenly observant. The concern over legality isn't a personal attack, it's to be fair and open.
These cars were designed to race, we compete under a belief everyone follows the rules. In our Series we have had success spot checking, compliance testing and having a stable rules package. I didn't make the tow to COTA and spend what for me is a considerable amount of money because the rules package is fractured and there isn't compliance testing. I want to compete against my fellow competitors on equal grounds and improve my chosen art, driving. It's a shame a more cohesive rules package isn't in place for vintage cars across the country. SVRA has the power to do it but either neglected to or doesn't want to for some reason, this has lead to confusion... One competitors DB-1 was labeled a Formula B car for example.
The onboard video is certainly interesting... The gear indicator is certainly off... Two shifts into third gear and no first gear indicated so we can't read into the data as much as we'd like to. Furthermore the throttle application is difficult to judge but he certainly has a great motor with decent skills to back it up. I am certainly impressed by the car's acceleration!
I'm sure Ryan is a class individual (he's driving a Formula Ford, can't be bad!) but if there is going to be a SVRA National event we need to have a more cohesive rules package along with compliance testing to insure legality. Quite frankly, as any driver on the grid of a FF race knows, I believe I would be up front running for the win on any track SVRA wants to host an event at but until there is an united package I won't be there.
Hope to see you at the races soon!
Mark
Felt this should go under another post instead of an Edit:
I see it was Wade who won... I said Ryan above because of the in car video... Any videos on Wade floating around? Ryan's acceleration is still impressive. Are those cars run out of the same shop? Same engine builder?
Apologies for any typos or oversights in the last two posts... I'm in a foreign country typing this out on an iPhone.
^^THIS^^Too many variables to compare shift points in a Honda and a Ford, and the rate of acceleration with unknown gear ratios.
That Titan lost more than 1.5 seconds just from apex of T12 to apex of T20 to Kautz. His lap time was almost 4 seconds slower. I wouldn't call that "nearly as fast" or "run with"
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Sans a teardown, we shouldn't get to call anybody a cheater.
Anybody that's been doing this long enough in mixed run groups knows how much more POWER 7 seconds a lap advantage would take even if you were ONLY making up half of it on the straights, much less all of it on the straights.
-Peter Krause
1984 Tiga SC
www.peterkrause.net
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable in the Racing Equation"
Raw Data
How about the Traqmate data file?
John Mihalich, Jr.
lffr@hotmail.com
Last edited by LFFR; 11.02.13 at 10:31 PM. Reason: add e-mail address
New ff vs. Vintage Ford
Isn't he 4 seconds slower on TREADED tires and without the draft?? Maybe the
current Pro FF drivers should consider switching to vintage Titans and slicks??
Tim,
It may be both. Equipped with functional mechanical tach, with AIM as a "Timing Device" as an additional item, but not as the only dash item.......looking forward to seeing you Turkey weekend...
M.
Using skinny set up, we were 2:22's & Tim was in the 2:21's I believe in March for qualifying in the dry, I will look up race data when I get home. It was a wet session when we were running 2:25's & 2:26's with lots of full course caution laps. I was on the grid & we switched from slicks to rain tires back to slicks based on the weather while we sat there for half an hour waiting.
Steve Bamford
I just looked up the data & we were running mainly 2:22's & 2:23's for most of the race. First flying lap was a 2:26 & next was a 2:22. Entering turn one we were between 115 - 120 mph depending on the lap & traffic. Top speed I saw was 135 mph down the back straight with a draft. Otherwise I was between 130 - 133 mph top end.
Not sure this info helps or not but give you something to compare too.
Steve Bamford
Just watched the video with my data in front of me. Mid corner speeds were off 4-8 mph & in one case 10 mph compared to mine yet top speed was with 1-2 mph on most straights.
Steve Bamford
Question: Can you accurately compare mid-corner speeds without also comparing throttle position and brake? Seems to me two cars could have an identical speed at mid apex, but one driver could already be on the gas while the other is still trail braking.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
To be clear, I was comparing lowest speed per corner based on data I had & the data displayed on the YouTube video. Sorry I worded it as mid corner speed which isn't correct 100% correct. Then I compared the highest speed reached before the next braking section....Does that help?
Steve Bamford
I think you need more inputs than raw speed data to draw any conclusions in a situation like this. I'm not sure how meaningful it is to just look at the differential between the lowest and highest speed at any two given points on the track, because you would also need weight, gearing, aerodynamic data, tire coefficient, etc. to make an accurate assessment of comparative performance.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
I am comparing multiple corners around the track & the ensuing straights but I do understand your point. I do find it interesting comparing the numbers how an older car can exit these corners with such a lower speed & end up nearly at the same top speed down the straight. Keep in mind as I mentioned earlier we were running the skinny setup on our car for this event giving us theoretically a higher top end speed with less drag & less rotating mass. I am sure our aero on our modern car would be better. I have compared multiple laps on multiple days from my data to allow for wind differences as well.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 11.03.13 at 2:25 PM.
Steve Bamford
As I have stated before, We were 10 MPH slower down the straights, with the same chasis. That's engine.
Roland Johnson
San Diego, Ca
Question for Peter or others here who watched Abu Dhabi race
Disclaimer up front - rookie question follows... I'm far from qualified to weigh in on the engine discussion, but learning from this thread about driving. In the F1 race this morning, Vettel was 30 sec. ahead of Webber - same team, same engine, same car - and everyone was/has been wondering, "How does he do it?" Again, I'm a rookie, but when I look at the in-car driving from Vettel compared to others, he is simply smoother. His wheel turns are smoother and held, not correcting and over-correcting; firm steering wheel position throughout the whole turn.
So my question about Vettel and maybe relative to this thread - Is much of Vettel's secret a more sure, more accurate selection of line through the turn (less variation of steering input compared to others) or is he varying the throttle more than others in order to hold that firm line? I'm sure it's at least a little of both, but I think his steering input is, on average, much less than the in-car video from others. Likewise, is that the major speed secret for Steve, Ryan, Dan and others noted in this thread?
David
Vettel wasn't running 6 seconds a lap faster then his teammate, nor anyone else for that matter that I am aware of. That would have put him over 5 minutes ahead at the end of that race not 30 seconds, you are talking more then ten times that amount...you need to keep things in context. Club races are not near as long as F1 Races.
Steve Bamford
Got it
Yep, duh, sorry. Thirty seconds total in 55 laps total. Got it. Indeed a 7 second per lap delta would have been over 5 minutes total. I'm still curious about the smoothness but there's an F1 thread for that.
One car could reach its top speed sooner and stay there while the other could take longer to get to its similar top speed. Still have more variables when talking about acceleration than just HP.
The other thing to consider is that if the straight is long enough, exit speed doesn't matter when it comes to terminal velocity. Take the same FF and putt around a corner at 10 mph onto a 2mi straight and then do it again taking that same corner at 100mph; 2 miles later there wont be any difference in top speed----they both had enough distance to reach it.
Do you think the Cd and frontal area are both better? Looking at the difference between your front and rear track vs the front and rear track of a Titan, the big rears may not present any additional frontal area. Tire pressures and compounds affect drag too. Like I said too many variables and unknown for me to call somebody a cheater.Keep in mind as I mentioned earlier we were running the skinny setup on our car for this event giving us theoretically a higher top end speed with less drag & less rotating mass. I am sure our aero on our modern car would be better.
That being said Roland did attempt to have it looked at while at the track.
DK540
A big part of Vettel's speed & anyone else's is back on the throttle much quicker with no lift after apex along with little wheel input.
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Are we really having this discussion? Thankfully your last line sort of gives you an out...One car could reach its top speed sooner and stay there while the other could take longer to get to its similar top speed. Still have more variables when talking about acceleration than just HP.
The other thing to consider is that if the straight is long enough, exit speed doesn't matter when it comes to terminal velocity. Take the same FF and putt around a corner at 10 mph onto a 2mi straight and then do it again taking that same corner at 100mph; 2 miles later there wont be any difference in top speed----they both had enough distance to reach it.
Do you think the Cd and frontal area are both better? Looking at the difference between your front and rear track vs the front and rear track of a Titan, the big rears may not present any additional frontal area. Tire pressures and compounds affect drag too. Like I said too many variables and unknown for me to call somebody a cheater.
That being said Roland did attempt to have it looked at while at the track.
Steve Bamford
Geez... reading this thread was equivalent to walking through a cattle holding pen on a rainy day.
Maybe it is a good thing SCCa is not going back to COTA in 2014.
After Abu Dhabi yesterday, I'm not sure you can say thatVettel was pulling over 2.5 seconds a lap on his nearest competitor (Webber) supposedly in the SAME equipment.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
I haven't been in school for many years, but I do remember that 2.5 seconds doesn't
equal 6 seconds, so to compare COTA to Abu Dhabi doesn't compare anymore than a
10 lap vintage Ford race compares to a 55 lap F-1 race!
I'm just saying...I hesitate to call someone a cheater unless I manage to prove they were.
This car was turning laps several seconds slower than a new car, was down on top speed to a new car. It's a new track that everybody is learning...all those variables mean a larger potential delta between entries.
Pointing at one performance data point or another doesn't prove or disprove legality by itself. What it may do is raise enough suspicion to dig deeper.
Roland tried to do the right thing based on his experience and suspicions. Through no fault of his own, he wasn't able to have them confirmed/denied.
Why are we ready to take someones' "win" away when we don't know?
I wasn't speaking about terminal velocity so not sure how that came up. I took multiple corners & compared that to end of the straights top speeds which in all cases is below my terminal velocity on my car...sorry I am by far not an expert but the numbers don't add up. You can throw all the possible scenarios at this, tire pressures & compounds, etc. but the fact is the data leads me to believe something is off. That is simply just my opinion which we all know isn't worth much at all.
Steve Bamford
I am simply pointing out facts based on actual data I have, which is more then most others can say, so tryinig to add facts to the discussion.
Is it not possible the entrant showed up knowing tech would not have the ability to prove or disprove the legitamcy of his engine?
Steve Bamford
dear SVRA ..............wake up!!
this event was advertised as the championship race. I recall being told i could not ebter the event UNLESS i raced in 2 races with the group during the year( at least thats what was advertised that i remember).
that said why would ANYONE take their time, $$$$, and expectations of a championship event back to any SVRA "championship, or really after thinking about it, any event without the availablity of (simple)tech if requested.
I wonder were car even weighed..........AND IF SO, then what is the big deal about a simple tech to verfiy the class of car being run.
sounds to me that w/o tech and the verification the class should be called small bore open wheel...........since that sounds like what i would now expect next year.
I know roland fairly well. his passion for racing, and his abillity to speak what he feels, is good for those who are racers,
I have been involved in vintage FF racing here in the west, and IMO the cars are NOT the trophies as said in a prior post about vintage racing. the racing is very good in the FF class, as long as the integrity of the class is maintained.
my real question to SVRA is ................"is this what to expect from vintage racing out west?" I just sold my car so i dont care(anymore right now as much), but i comment because i would NOT buy another to go RACE in a group if this is what i would expect from an event advertised as a championship.
7 seconds/lap.............. is a TON. If i did that to the competition, i would not be comfortable with the result UNLESS it were verified in tech.
when i am 7 seconds a lap faster than another car , i consider them to be feilder fillers; that it does raise eyebrows when one car in a class with a rules set is making ALL cars field fillers.
I wonder how many FFcars will make the trek to the championship race next year wherever it is held?
1?
I am glad i didnt take the bait and race a few events so that i could "qualify" to race this championship race.
I aplaud roland and his brass balls, sometime it sucks to be the messenger when the message is not comfortable to say.
Modernization of the "Vintage" car
The intent of "vintage car racing" was to race the cars as they "were raced" in their day. That is why the" Monoposto Rules" were written and have changed a very little since. With the addition of the FF 70 group, allowance was made to admit a more recent group of cars up through year 1981; a clear distinction from the earlier group of cars to include up through 1972. The problem is that many progressives have chosen to modernize their "vintage" car/engines way beyond the original intention of the class.The sanctioning bodies have allowed the "modernization" of the "vintage" cars under the pretense of "more entries makes for more entry fees." Who was it that said: "Progress is a great thing, so long as there isn't to much of it." The allowance of up-grades has made formula Club Ford far more expensive than originally expected or intended. And for some, that upgrading has destroyed that class. Are the sanctioning bodies going to allow the further upgrading of the "vintage classes" or are they going to insist that they be raced as they "were raced in their day." Does your club insist that your "vintage cars" adhere to those "monoposto rules" as they are currently published?
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