SVRA at COTA

[cooleyjb]

I'm 100% certain that Peter is not defending the legality of the motors. What he is defending is that of the 7 seconds a significant portion is the driver and I have to agree that that kid drove the snot out of that Titan.

[Daryl DeArman]

Let's see Mr. Cunningham campaign the Titan in SCCA races for 2014 with treaded Dunlops, win the runoffs, and survive tech. If he can pull that off, then no one can ever possibly doubt your expertise.
Is Mr. Cunningham up for the challenge?

Put down the pipe. 3+ seconds a lap differential at COTA...I haven't seen anybody suggest that the Titan in question could compete with a new topshelf FF on lap time.

Not to mention the whole Cortina v Kent/Uprated engine thing. It is fact that a good Cortina is several HP down from an equally good Kent.

Why are you assuming it's a Cortina?

I find this whole topic pretty funny that there is even debate. Besides, is anyone surprised that a vintage car is "questionable"? Really, who isn't cheating in vintage?

Uh...I wasn't. Yet, I'm batting .000 when it comes to buying SCCA cars that had completely legal engines. Which leads to your next point...

Also, it doesn't matter who built it. Once it leaves their shop, it doesn't take much to slip in a cam.

You are making the assumption that the engines are leaving shops legal to begin with...but that's for another thread for another day.

[stonebridge20]

Why do I get the feeling that soon this thread will end with the realization that someone is posting from their parents basement and that their "member" is stained orange with Cheeto's dust ?

[Roland V. Johnson]

Here in Southern California the engines are legal SCCA Fords, and the cars weigh 1100#+ with driver after the races. We check. As an ex SCCA Chief of Tec, and someone who has been Assistant Chief of Tec at the SCCA RunOff's I have good idea where to look for the meaningful cheating. There is less of it done here in Vintage than I saw at many SCCA events I have been to. I've got 23 years of FF data (way back to Race Log) to compare also. My disagreement with Peter is that he is advocating that the engine in the winning car is legal, and the driver can somehow make it 10MPH faster in a straight line. Most of the engines I have seen in Vintage cars are Uprated. Now back to my Cheetos.

[Tigaman]

I'm 100% certain that Peter is not defending the legality of the motors. What he is defending is that of the 7 seconds a significant portion is the driver and I have to agree that that kid drove the snot out of that Titan.

[Charles Warner]

My disagreement with Peter is that he is advocating that the engine in the winning car is legal, and the driver can somehow make it 10MPH faster in a straight line.

A very interesting thread with egos and personal cojones seemingly at stake. Roland, I do not see Peter as advocating the legality of the engine(s) in question, but allowing that until some proof (that may or may not be available or forthcoming) is presented any such definitive statements that the engine is illegal are possibly outside the bounds of sportsmanship. And, yes, a driver can make that much difference. Drivers at the pro level make 99% of us look like pikers. Their commitment levels and abilities are so far above us it hurts.

[Tigaman]

A very interesting thread with egos and personal cojones seemingly at stake. Roland, I do not see Peter as advocating the legality of the engine(s) in question, but allowing that until some proof (that may or may not be available or forthcoming) is presented any such definitive statements that the engine is illegal are possibly outside the bounds of sportsmanship. And, yes, a driver can make that much difference. Drivers at the pro level make 99% of us look like pikers. Their commitment levels and abilities are so far above us it hurts.

[scorp997]

I don't have a part of this fight, but I would agree that a vintage FF should not be that much faster than the rest of the field.

I have watched the video a few times and I have noticed that the data screen doesn't always show a gear change, I know all software has some glitches/limitations. It is a little tough to tell from the audio alone, but how many gears does he have? Not having driven there, I would assume T1 is the slowest and be a first gear corner? How many corners are taken in first? I don't mean to throw gas on a fire but if, by chance, he does have a 5 speed it could account for some of the acceleration.

Anyone who has driven this track care to comment on the gear changes? I may be way off base - if so, please let me know.

I do wish I could drive my car half as well as he does!

[Tigaman]

Anyone who has driven this track care to comment on the gear changes? I may be way off base - if so, please let me know.

I do wish I could drive my car half as well as he does!

You are not off-base in questioning the displayed gear versus the actual gear.

In order to show the gears in the TraqStudio software, you must enter rear wheel diameter or circumference, final drive and intermediate ratios. Then, it uses GPS speed and RPM to calcualte the gear, like a lot of other data systems that don't use a gear indicator sensor.

This system was obviously not set up correctly or, more likely, set up for a different car and plopped into this one. If I had access to the raw files, I could fix it and burn another video, but I don't.

All you need to do is listen... He has four forward gears and he uses first several times a lap.

I used first in my four speed S2 at least five times, T1, T11, T12, T13 and T15, doing 2:22's.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Peter, since now, you are not disputing the legality of the engine, there is no need for further discussion. Titan Mk-6's with legal FF engines do not pull 132 MPH ( still accelerating) on a straight without a good draft or a big down hill.

[Tigaman]

Peter, since now, you are not disputing the legality of the engine, there is no need for further discussion.

One more time, Roland.

Neither you nor I KNOW FOR A FACT whether the engine is legal or not. Unfortunately, for this event, we will never know. The "chain of custody" has not been preserved.

The two Titans were covered with a blanket and STILL six or seven seconds off Kautz and Bamford's times, which means your driver was eight to twelve seconds off.

You picked the biggest spread between your driver to push your point, I picked the smallest spread to push mine!

Not debating that a vintage Ford is even close in lap times to a modern Ford (it's not, and we ALL have the data to prove that).

I have seen that much of a difference in throttle application and corner entry speed commitment to explain most if not all of the difference in a variety of cars, at a variety of tracks, that is all.

The Sports 2000 cars, the top-5 anyway, were within 2 seconds of the record and the pole car qualified UNDER the Majors record. I'm sure of their legality. I drive one...

Certainly, the level of competition at the COTA event does not parallel in any way, the RunOffs, so there's a difference right away.

Your driver has not won Indy Lights or British F3 races, either...

I ask you to read Charles' post one more time.

I hope that if you guys meet again somewhere, the checks you wish may be able to be made.

[cooleyjb]

Wait, so people are complaining about a Vintage FF that is 7 seconds a lap off of the modern FF track record because they were 7 seconds behind the vintage one?

Comparing soft-data like that seen on a video is always suspect to me. Comparing hard-data like lap-times and the actual data file is realsitic. Lap times don't seem that ridiculous.

As for a cheater motor accounting for 7 seconds. Get over it. FB cars with 30 more hp, 150-200 less pounds and a better gearbox are all of 3 seconds faster at VIR than an FC. How much power would a FF have to have to make up 7 seconds.

[Steve Bamford]

Wait, so people are complaining about a Vintage FF that is 7 seconds a lap off of the modern FF track record because they were 7 seconds behind the vintage one?

Comparing soft-data like that seen on a video is always suspect to me. Comparing hard-data like lap-times and the actual data file is realsitic. Lap times don't seem that ridiculous.

As for a cheater motor accounting for 7 seconds. Get over it. FB cars with 30 more hp, 150-200 less pounds and a better gearbox are all of 3 seconds faster at VIR than an FC. How much power would a FF have to have to make up 7 seconds.

I have compared my actual data against the data on the video from many different locations on the track.

The car in question is down 5-10 mph in the corners yet at the end of the straights accelerates up to the same speed as modern FF that was running 4 front tires all around. Sorry not possible without having 20-25% more HP. The Dunlops are significantly heavier a tire as well creating more rotating mass to push not to mention the areo disadvantages. Sorry not possible to do this with a LEGAL engine.

Those who are disagreeing with this please educated me why they believe I am wrong.

We will never know the truth now as the event is long passed. Examination at a later date won't prove or disprove anything.

[cooleyjb]

I have compared my actual data against the data on the video from many different locations on the track.

The car in question is down 5-10 mph in the corners yet at the end of the straights accelerates up to the same speed as modern FF that was running 4 front tires all around. Sorry not possible without having 20-25% more HP. The Dunlops are significantly heavier a tire as well creating more rotating mass to push not to mention the areo disadvantages. Sorry not possible to do this with a LEGAL engine.

Those who are disagreeing with this please educated me why they believe I am wrong.

We will never know the truth now as the event is long passed. Examination at a later date won't prove or disprove anything.

Not gonna say that the engine is legal or not but even i it wasn't that wouldn't account for seven seconds. Maybe three. As I said fb has about that same increase in power but with two other advantages over FC and it works out to well less than 7 seconds at big tracks. I'm pretty sure that is what tigaman has been talking about. The driver is incredibly quick as well.

[Josh Pitt]

the problem isnt with the titan, or roland; the problem is that the organizing body offered this as a championship event for SVRA, and then has NO willingness or even the ability to check a car that may be questioned.

IMO, this is not how a (advertised as) championship event should ever be run.



we can all bitch about this after the fact, the real question, which i wish ANYONE from SVRA would comment on is; why is there ZERO tech at an event that is advertised and trying to a large group of entrants as a race( not a trackday).

having raced FF in vintage i can say that the idea that the cars are the trophy, and its not about competion, is not how this group is structured in FF (at the pointy end of the field..................its racing), and the abilty to tech a car in question must be available for there to be ANY credibilty for a (advertised as) championship race if you want people(racers) to come back.

reading this stuff makes me very OK with having sold my car; i would hesitate to make the haul for an event that knowingly would be offered like this.

[Charles Warner]

We will never know the truth now as the event is long passed.

That is the point. To continue to whine and pi$$ in someone's cornflakes all based on speculation and conjecture is unsportsmanlike. Some of us still believe in Sportsmanship and the decorum one should ascribe to in this sport.

To quote the great Don Henley - "Get Over It!"

[David Clubine]

Bam Bam Wrote:

"The Dunlops are significantly heavier a tire as well creating more rotating mass to push not to mention the areo disadvantages."


4 Dunlops are the same weight within a few onces as a Hoosier slick, and the front is no larger than the hoosier. The rear is of coarse larger in diameter, and likely slightly larger in width.

Not saying it helps or hurts the cause in this argument....

[Tigaman]

That is the point. To continue to whine and pi$$ in someone's cornflakes all based on speculation and conjecture is unsportsmanlike. Some of us still believe in Sportsmanship and the decorum one should ascribe to in this sport.

To quote the great Don Henley - "Get Over It!"

I guess that's what really set me off about the original post, casting aspersions...

Bam Bam Wrote:

"The Dunlops are significantly heavier a tire as well creating more rotating mass to push not to mention the areo disadvantages."


4 Dunlops are the same weight within a few onces as a Hoosier slick, and the front is no larger than the hoosier. The rear is of coarse larger in diameter, and likely slightly larger in width.

Not saying it helps or hurts the cause in this argument....

^^THIS^^

Good info from the Dunlop importer for North America...

Josh Pitt, where you even at the event?

[a. pettipas]

That is the point. To continue to whine and pi$$ in someone's cornflakes all based on speculation and conjecture is unsportsmanlike. Some of us still believe in Sportsmanship and the decorum one should ascribe to in this sport.

To quote the great Don Henley - "Get Over It!"

The point is, IMO, there is definite cause here for speculation concerning legality and NOTHING is quite so unsportsmanlike as cheating, in any of it's various forms.

Henley's great?...very subjective.

[BURKY]

The point is, IMO, there is definite cause here for speculation concerning legality and NOTHING is quite so unsportsmanlike as cheating, in any of it's various forms.

Henley's great?...very subjective.

[Charles Warner]

[QUOTE=a. pettipas;413062]The point is, IMO, there is definite cause here for speculation concerning legality and NOTHING is quite so unsportsmanlike as cheating, in any of it's various forms.
/QUOTE]

Nothing as unsportsmanlike as cheating? While I might agree with that statement - NOTHING has been proven. Until something is proven all this is is a bunch of whinging by someone who was beaten (and a passle of hangers-on who really don't have a dog in the fight).

All of this folderol about RunOffs engines, rotating mass, wheel weights, tire sizes, spurious data, etc. is just a bunch of smoke-and-mirrors.

There are racers (Steve Johnson for one) who can take a new pro-built engine and massage it with his own tricks, while maintaining total legality, and get another 4 horsepower out of it. He is that good of an engineer. He is also that good of a driver to take that engine in a perfectly prepared car and beat the snot out of almost anyone. By 7 seconds? Maybe.

"Definite cause for speculation?" That's like asking someone "have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

At the end of the day, what happened happened. No one can change it. Those involved know whether they cheated or not. If one is beaten by someone he feels is a cheater then his ego should be intact. Unfortunately it's more than that - it's a function that someone did not like the world to see him beaten by such a margin. Now it's an ego thing.

In the greater scope of things that is such a minor issue.

I think they used to say "put up or shut up." Might that apply here?

[Josh Pitt]

Josh Pitt, where you even at the event?

no peter I am no longer active with HSR/SVRA,

thankfully , i didnt take the bait at the begining of the year from SVRA.

SVRA sent out an email stating that you needed to qualify for this event by racing a certain # of events with SVRA in order to attend.
I had chosen to sit out for a while, and have since chosen not to race anymore.

if i did go to this "race" i would also(like roland) not be OK with having zero tech for this event when such a display of awesomeness was given, and spending all that time and money for this feeling.

seems crappy to me that the event organizers get a pass on this.

I would never call anyone a cheater, without proof..............thats the problem, not the racers; the organizers getting racers to come all the way out to race, only to find out it was really a just trackday. there is no judge(thats on the organizer, not the racers)

Roland, are you and your drivers planning on going to this "race" next year?

I miss racing, but this stuff i dont miss at all.

having raced a titan MK6, swift Db-1, and a crossle 32; and having done so against dan cowdry...................something doesnt add up IMO.


7 seconds a lap is an eternity
Carry on.

[a. pettipas]

Technical inspection would impinge upon, or at the very least delay, the SVRA tech inspector's margarita-time... In all seriousness though, I ran a Trans-Am Grp 10 car in several HSR/SVRA events in the early noughties and recall thinking, post-tech, at WG (forget which sanction) what a waste of time it was, nothing more than a cursory glance at a few safety things, a mere token gesture. I was positive this particular inspector barely knew the front of the car from the back; maybe he was the exception to the rule but someone in one of the vintage groups designated him to do a job he was so clearly unable to perform... Can't 'put up' without competent inspectors who have the knowledge and tools to do the job..."a whistler...huh, what's that?"

[TimH]

Maybe the problem is the entire notion of an SVRA "Championship"?

If you have one, should it be decided on some mathematical combination of lap times and concours points?

[belair]

This string started as a "comment" on FF legality..........but overall it is actually a comment on the sanctioning bodies ability or acceptance to enforce the stated rules. For the SVRA to be able to deal with this kind of issue in every class would be interesting. How does the SCCA do it? Surely there are some of you here who have been there, in Tech tearing down to prove your innocence.

So, if SVRA wants to be a gentlemanly organization of people who bring their cars out for friendly competition..............I am all for it! Tech for safety, car classification, a engine displacement check tool always available and used on a randomly selected top 3 car in every class every race, and weights of the top 3 cars in every class after each race, happy people on the podium, medals, but no champions at the end of the year, just a time sheet with results for each event. Clean and simple. If you are underweight at the end of a race or qualifying for more than what could be low fuel, you are banned for the season, within the fuel weight.......go to the back next 3 races. If your engine is oversize you are gone for 2 full seasons. In classes where flywheel weight is an issue, if 2 competitors within 3 places of the tested car want the flywheel weight, then they post $300 cash bond. Legal, you get the $, illegal you are gone for 2 seasons.

I am not interested in any of the above challenges.......I just want to race on a level field.

[Rick Kirchner]

I think you're all being pretty hard on the sanctioning body here. SVRA envisioned a east/west championship of vintage racing at what has become one of the top venues in the world - what's not to like about that?

So vintage doesn't usually do anything beyond safety tech. Rules tech seems to emerge in classes where cheating is obvious. VARA had an issue with FF in the 90s and does some engine compliance checking. "The Series" adds post race impound and weight. A while back the 2.oL porsche guys were getting sick of facing against cars with more than 3L and adopted some compliance checking.

If SVRA want's to make a great and significant event out of this they are going to need to adopt some standards in some of the classes. Trying to check it all would be a fools errand. I once tried to list all the open wheel and sports racer classes and distinct generations of cars within those classes since FJr, and got more than 60.

IMHO, these scraps happen primarily in the controlled open wheel classes, sprigets, and porsches.