Header Heat Temp Management GSXR

[Blair Robertshaw]

Hello all,

environment;

Stohr Chassis, GDRE 2008 Suzuki GSXR.

Has anyone tried to control or reduce the heat generated by the header with a ceramic coating?

If so, did it work?

Did the coating effect the performance of the engine in a negative way?

Has the coating lasted?

Would header tape be as effective as ceramic coating?

or any other suggestions that may be able to reduce the heat in that small cavity area?. There is water return tube located on the lower bulk head firewall that runs from left to right. Currently it has a pliable silver thermal shield wrapped around it. Not sure if this enough. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

[crowe motorsports]

Ceramic coating did to work on my WF-1. These pipes are glowing red at high revs and ceramic cannot take the extreme heat. I do not recommend wrapping other than a heat management area only where needed. I would recommend Jet Hot highest temp coating inside and outside of pipe for mild steel and stainless do not need coatings. Otherwise on oil or water line insulation, use black silicone coated fiberglass DEI or other and then do one size bigger and then silver reflective cover over that if needed. Be sure to run a ballistics blanket in front of motor and don't leave home without one.

Hope this helps.

Michael

[Ivinsea]

Hello all,


There is water return tube located on the lower bulk head firewall that runs from left to right.

Blair,
My brother has an earlier Stohr that has a coolant pipe layout as you described; I have a later car that has relocated the coolant lines to the left side of the engine. Stohr makes an adapter for the thermostat housing that relocates the exit to 8 o'clock instead of the stock 4 o'clock position. This minimizes heat radiation from to header to the coolant lines.

He also had his mild steel header Jet Hot coated, but it started to flake off after a few weekends.

Some cars have right AND left side air ducts in the water and oil inlets directed to the headers; we just have one duct.

Ivin

[glenn cooper]

What is that header made of? I have heard never to wrap a mild steel header - it'll fall apart in quick order due to the heat retention/soak.

On my RFR w/ std eqpt SS header (VERY Robust) I went with a ceramic coating inside and out.
It seems to have lowered the "underhood" temps, but no scientific proof to verify that.
(Dude - I'm like a one-man band).

I had tried the header wrap black tape stuff, which was then spayed w/ a black coating. It fell apart fairly quick as I recall.

Which/whose Stohr was/is this?
What's up w/ the transverse water tube? Rad not on left?

The LSR2 I ran last week had a brilliant 2 stage overhead scoop that ducted the lower half straight down to the headers, and the upper half to the airbox.
Also seen on this car was a louvered area on the back of the engine cover, to aid in heat extraction.

[Blair Robertshaw]

Thanks guys. Ivan, since you mention an adapter, I now recall I was given an adapter to change the clock position of the hose. I will try and relocate the position today. I am not familiar with a "Ballistic Blanket"?

The car was Taylor Archers, prior to that it was the MacDonalds livery F1000. Very low time / mileage race car. I bought the car in April, we took it apart and have rebuilt the car all but the motor which has 2 race weekends on it. New data, nuts, bolts, suspension, rod ends, wheel bearings, rebuilt brakes, re wired and sorted the electrical, new paint. Car sports BRD's latest aero bodywork and dry sump system. It was reported to be quite competitive but we have yet to turn a wheel with it. Car will be offered as a Rent A Ride in 2013.

back to the heat issue, DEI has 2 products:

1. Cool Tube Extreme, good to 750 F direct heat, no indirect / radiant numbers and
2. Heat Sheath, good to 500 F direct heat, 2000 F radiant heat.

Has anyone tried these products in a similar environment before? which would you recommend to try please?

Below is the area of concern. Is this protection sufficient? This was how it was on the car, as delivered to me. The pipe has the gold reflective and then wrapped again by a flexible thermal material.

Thanks again boys for all your input and help with the car. Thanks APEX

Blair

[starkejt]

This is the best heat shield I have tried.

http://www.koolmat.com/heatmast.shtml

[Jnovak]

This is the best heat shield I have tried.

http://www.koolmat.com/heatmast.shtml

These work.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[glenn cooper]

is there a water tube running transverse at that location, so close to the header?

Is this car equipped w/ dual rads / one ea. side and thusly requires a crossover pipe?

Yeah I'd want to move or modify that...

GC

[Blair Robertshaw]

No dual rads, water on drivers left, oil on drivers right. I agree it is an odd location. The serial number on this car is 002, not sure what other early Stohr car owners have done if anything but if any one has changed this routing I would be interested to see just what it is that was done. thanks again boys.

Blair

[Ivinsea]

No dual rads, water on drivers left, oil on drivers right. I agree it is an odd location. The serial number on this car is 002, not sure what other early Stohr car owners have done if anything but if any one has changed this routing I would be interested to see just what it is that was done. thanks again boys.

Blair

Blair,
My brother's car is chassis #9 and is set up per your picture.

My car is chassis #20 has the updated coolant tank and so avoids the crossover pipe.

Here is a pic of the updated Stohr coolant tank:
http://stohr.com/html/header_tank.html

If you got this tank and used the thermostat adapter, you could remove the crossover pipe.

Ivin

[Blair Robertshaw]

Thanks Ivin. Did your brother do the swap or is he running the original pipe routing with no problems?

[glenn cooper]

On my Novak converrsion and the RFR we run a 170* Samco blue silicone bend.
Water out the t-stat housing to the right, then curves back to the left, where it hooks into an aluminum pipe and to the left side mounted cooler.

[peteytoo]

Blair:

I did not use the part to rotate the coolant output - which would then require a new swirl pot, but I did move my existing swirl pot as far to the left as I could and routed the coolant output from the engine higher up so that it is away from the headers. I did thoroughly wrap the output from the swirl pot to the radiator. I can get pictures later if you would like them.

The new routing is sufficiently far from the heat source, that I do not use the pipe, it is all silicone hose.

Pete

Thanks Ivin. Did your brother do the swap or is he running the original pipe routing with no problems?

[Blair Robertshaw]

Hi Pete, yes thanks a few pics would be great! I'm not sure if I'm fussing over nothing. The car raced this way but I was thinking a cooler operating temp would be better. I can always make it run hotter. Thanks again everyone for your input.

regards,

Blair

[Buc01]

I must say that I have used ceramic coated heades for years and owned a ceramic/powder coating shop several years ago. (have since moved onto other opportunities)). Ceramic coating works very well when the correct ceramic coating is chosen (there are many variations out there) and it is applied correctly (all phases, blast clean, prep, coat, bake, and final polish).

The coating I found to be the most effective thermal barrier on cylinder heas and exahust heaers is called CermaKrome and hopfully the link below works:

http://www.thermaltechcoatings.com/prod01.htm

Scientific evidence I have is many years ago I had a customer that serviced indoor LPG powered floor buffers that used an 18 hp twin cylinder engine. To keep the emissions inside a building down as much as possible, the engines came from the factory very LEAN! This caused the cylinder head to warp and blow head gaskets with alarming frequency.

I took a cylinder head that was new and applied cermakrome to the head with with the valves in the head effectively caoting the entire combustion chamber and I also coated the small exhaust header. The coated components were then installed on a new buffer.

Next we took the coated buffer and a brand new buffer of the same exact model and ran them indoors at 90F ambient (at the start of the test) with doors closed for 15 minutes with wide open throttle. I then used an infrared heat gun (sorry forgot the brand) and took measurements on both exhaust port flanges of each engine while running and on the header at its midpoint.

The data showed 50-60% reduction in temperature on the coated head at the exhaust port flanges and 40% on the header.

This data backs up my own seat of the pants race car data as I have been using ceramic coated headers since the mid 90's and will never run a race car without it. I have observed lower engine bay temperatures, longer header life, greatly enhanced appearance, and a need to richen fuel mixture on a couple of occasions (right after coating the header).

Ceramic thermal barriers work if they right one is chosen and it is applied correctly.

Find a reputable shop that has experience with cermakrome and get it coated. It will make a difference.

Aaron

[JakeL]

Hi Blair -

I'm a bit late to the party, but thought I'd throw my experiences in here:

Re: Coating:
I had a set of headers Jet-Hot coated with their highest-temp coating on my DSR. It lasted at least 2 years, and was fine when I sold the car. As with the others, it "seemed" to help, but no scientific numbers.


Re: Wrapping
I've been told from folks that have tried it to AVOID this - headers will crack.


Re: "Ballstic Blanket" or "blast Blanket"
This goes between the block and the header to prevent oil spray on the headers if you hole a block:

http://www.stohr.com/html/engine_blanket.html

I run one in front of hte motor, and also one on the floor between the engine and the firewall to act as a reflector.


Re: Heat:
One of the best things you can do is take some 2" or 2.5" hose and duct cool air from somewhere into the engine bay. Note on the new Stohr F1000 there is the duct from under the rollhoop (Example: http://www.stohr.com/) that puts cool air into both sides of the engine bay. WF-1/DSR guys do something similar as well.


Re: Heatshielding:
I use the DEI thermoflex tubing extensively and have never had an issue. Link:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...p?Product=1831


Re: Hose Routing
the 90* adapter is available from Stohr, and should prevent you from having to cross the firewall in the first place. After that, all you need is some Samco hose and you're all set. One trick I've seen is spiral hose inserts to make 100% sure they don't collapse when you have tighter bends. Works great.

I don't have the greatest images of the "new style" routing, but this might help:

http://www.jakelatham.com/f1000/imag...0/P1000320.jpg
http://www.jakelatham.com/f1000/imag...6/P1000301.jpg

Good luck!

-J

[Blair Robertshaw]

Thanks Jake and everyone else who replied. Some good tips and ideas for sure. I think I will go the jet hot route as well as re position the header tank. Pete, would still love to see your pics if you have time.

Thanks again boys, really appreciate your input.

regards,

Blair

[disquek]

I'm told that SwainTech coatings are superior to JetHot in thermal management. I've never used them, but the reading I've done seems like they have an interesting product. It's very thick and as the texture of grip tape.

For a thermal barrier fabric, call Thermal Control Products. It's all they do and they are very very good at it.

-Kyle

[peteytoo]

Blair:

Pics attached. Also note that I used the 'S/S insert' that Jake L mentioned where the coolant line curves to the right and runs between engine and chassis - this prevents the hose from being pinched. The others are 'formed' angles (90, 120 etc), that are meant for the angle, so they aren't subject to collapse (at least not like a straight hose).

Let me know if ?

Pete

Thanks Jake and everyone else who replied. Some good tips and ideas for sure. I think I will go the jet hot route as well as re position the header tank. Pete, would still love to see your pics if you have time.

Thanks again boys, really appreciate your input.

regards,

Blair

[Blair Robertshaw]

Thanks very Much Pete. really appreciate the pics.

Blair