Problem with Simpson Devil Ray Helmet

[DaveW]

I have a Simpson Carbon Devil Ray Helmet that I got this spring. The helmet is basically a smooth sphere with a couple of gentle circular ridges arranged around the top. Photo below.

The problem is that it develops enough lift at its rear edge that at high speeds it will pivot forward (down) over my eyes! I never had this problem with the Simpson Voyager. Nothing has changed in the cockpit, and the helmet fits tightly.

I tried to make a wicker-bill type spoiler for the top similar to those sold for the Bell helmets. At first it was too tall and drove my head down and back into the headrest. Trimming it gradually in stages got it to where it pushed my head back only slightly and seemed to prevent the pivot-over-the eyes problem.

Then, during the race at WG last weekend, it started pivoting down over my eyes again.

My next try will be to try to attach a PVC duck-tail spoiler to the top rear.

Anyone have any other solutions or suggestions to the lift/pivoting problem?

Thanks,

[Darryl Wills]

We had to buy the addon carbon fibre chin wicker to stop the helmet from creeping over our eyes. This is a very stable helmet with the chin wicker but lifts horribly without it.

[DaveW]

We had to buy the addon carbon fibre chin wicker to stop the helmet from creeping over our eyes. This is a very stable helmet with the chin wicker but lifts horribly without it.

Was yours pivoting down or up? How does a chin wicker keep it from going forward and down? I would think that would force the front down, not prevent it going down.

[Darryl Wills]

Put your helmet on and tighten the chin strap. Reach around to the back of your helmet and remove it from your head...Yes, it will easily slip off with a forward motion. HANS devices anchor the helmet and are manditory so this is not a big issue. But I was just illustrating a point that any movement of the helmet forces it forward over the eyes. I love the helmet...just not sure how I feel about this characteristic.

[DaveW]

Put your helmet on and tighten the chin strap. Reach around to the back of your helmet and remove it from your head...Yes, it will easily slip off with a forward motion. HANS devices anchor the helmet and are manditory so this is not a big issue. But I was just illustrating a point that any movement of the helmet forces it forward over the eyes. I love the helmet...just not sure how I feel about this characteristic.

Yes, I found that out early on. What I am trying to eliminate is the force causing it to do that. I want it to be pivoting slightly to the back (pulling up against the chin strap and down on my head) so it doesn't pivot forward. Even pulling back/up on the HANS attachment point causes the forward pivot. At first I thought it actually was a HANS problem, but I now am pretty sure it is an aero effect.

See post # 27 below - my thought is now that the pivoting may not be an aero effect.

[Darryl Wills]

I understand. Build yourself a chin spoiler from card board and try it. Maybe it equalizes the velocity of air top to bottom and disrupts the low pressure area formed at the top rear of the helmet....don't know..but all three of us on our team installed the chin spoiler and it worked

[DaveW]

I understand. Build yourself a chin spoiler from card board and try it. Maybe it equalizes the velocity of air top to bottom and disrupts the low pressure area formed at the top rear of the helmet....don't know..but all three of us on our team installed the chin spoiler and it worked

OK, thanks, that may be a solution if I can't find anything better.

I just called Simpson in Texas, and they sounded like they had never heard about this problem before. They did, however, sound like they were taking my problem seriously.

I am not racing again until 2013, so I have a while to figure this out.

Thanks, again,

[Darryl Wills]

Funny..We ordered three of these helmets last year and called Simpson complaining about the helmet lift and they told us to send them in to have the chin addon installed. Talk to Tina Creswell at Simpson in Texas and she can probably send you the piece.

[EACIII]

I had lifting problems with my Devil Ray also. I had Stand 21 put a chin spoiler on it one weekend while at Lime Rock and problem was solved. Need to make sure you have the chin strap pulled tight though even with the chin spoiler. And that can be hard to do with the HANS in the way. I always make sure it is pushed down good and give it a extra pull before I put the gloves on on the grid.

[DaveW]

I had lifting problems with my Devil Ray also. I had Stand 21 put a chin spoiler on it one weekend while at Lime Rock and problem was solved. Need to make sure you have the chin strap pulled tight though even with the chin spoiler. And that can be hard to do with the HANS in the way. I always make sure it is pushed down good and give it a extra pull before I put the gloves on on the grid.

Hmmmm...

I put on the helmet after the HANS, but have no problem tightening the chin strap. I do tighten it pretty securely. The only limit to the tightness in my case is when it starts to hurt/choke from being too tight. That doesn't seem to prevent pivoting forward. Tightening too much tends to pivot it forward by itself! Maybe my head is deformed!

[Northwind]

I have the RX (similar aero features)and have had similar lift issues at speeds over 130 mph. At the runoffs it got so bad that it felt like it was going to rip my head off. I riveted a little piece of aluminum sheet metal vertically on the front edge of the cockpit opening, creating a 1/2" tall windshield that was about three inches wide. Problem 100% solved. Top speed has never been so comfortable.

[DaveW]

I have the RX (similar aero features)and have had similar lift issues at speeds over 130 mph. At the runoffs it got so bad that it felt like it was going to rip my head off. I riveted a little piece of aluminum sheet metal vertically on the front edge of the cockpit opening, creating a 1/2" tall windshield that was about three inches wide. Problem 100% solved. Top speed has never been so comfortable.

Thanks!

I have been thinking that something similar to your solution might be the best way to go - no extra stuff tacked onto the helmet, no additional frontal area. The thing I have to be sure of, though, is that I can see over the deflector, since I sit very low in the car.

Thanks, again!

[DaveW]

I have the RX (similar aero features)and have had similar lift issues at speeds over 130 mph. At the runoffs it got so bad that it felt like it was going to rip my head off. I riveted a little piece of aluminum sheet metal vertically on the front edge of the cockpit opening, creating a 1/2" tall windshield that was about three inches wide. Problem 100% solved. Top speed has never been so comfortable.

Sat in the car this AM and measured my line of sight. Looks like I have up to 1/2" to play with for a deflector w/o screwing up my forward vision. So, I will make one and try it at my 1st race next spring.

Thanks, again,

[DaveW]

Funny..We ordered three of these helmets last year and called Simpson complaining about the helmet lift and they told us to send them in to have the chin addon installed. Talk to Tina Creswell at Simpson in Texas and she can probably send you the piece.

Amazing. They said they (don't know the name of the person I talked to, but the supervisor was listening in) had never heard of that before. It is a rare supplier/manufacturer that will actually admit they have a problem.

I've had that response from Ford Motor Co. (4 broken coil springs within 50K miles on an Escort), Firestone (tread seps on SteelTex LT radials), VW (PCV problems), Microsoft (software problems), etc., etc., and, now, Simpson. Most of them reply just as Simpson did.

[R. Pare]

Simpson helmets have had that rotating-on-the-head issue for just about forever - something in the internal shaping of the helmet allows it to easily rotate on heads of certain shapes. We've actually seen helmets flip right off of customers heads in frontal crashes. Scary stuff.

I don't know if other manufacturers have this same problem or not (I've only heard of it with Simpsons), but my advice for years has been that if you can grab the back of the helmet and rotate it either significantly forward or all the way off (with the chin strap tightened, of course), put it back on the dealer shelf and buy something else - a helmet that comes off like that is worse than totally useless.

[DaveW]

Well, I've been through a couple of severe wrecks, and the Simpson helmets I was wearing worked well. Plus, I like the Devil Ray other than the lift/rotation, and am not about to decommission it, unless I can't get the rotating problem fixed quickly.

Also, with the use of the HANS, it can rotate somewhat, but there is not enough slack in the HANS tethers to allow it to come off. So, as I said above...

[DaveW]

Today I talked with Tina Creswell at Simpson in Texas. She said because of my cockpit configuration, that the chin spoiler may not work in my case, plus it would cost me $75 to have her send me one.

If the cockpit windscreen does not work my next try will be a "duck-tail" spoiler on the top-rear of the helmet, held on with double-sticky tape.

I also told her that the chin strap is over 1" further forward on the Devil Ray than it was on my Voyager. The Devil Ray is ~13.5" long and the chin strap attaches to the helmet 5" from the front. The old out of date Voyager is 13.0" long and the chin strap attaches ~6.13" from the front. So tightening the chin strap tighter on the Devil Ray does nothing to prevent it from tipping forward since it is so close to the front.

Too bad they don't have what I consider a "proper" solution to this problem.

[Rick Kean]

[DaveW]

Interesting. I wonder how one could incorporate that in an existing helmet.

[Rick Kean]

http://www.schuberth.com/en/motorcycle/s2.html mentions checking with local dealers to purchase Schuberth original spare parts. Perhaps one of the two Ohio dealers could order the AROS parts...

http://www.schuberth.com/fileadmin/B.../S2_manual.pdf

AROS Strap relationships:


FWIW

Rick

[DaveW]

Looking at the side view of the Schuberth helmet and add'l straps, the helmet chin straps attach to the helmet at about the mid-point, fore-aft in the helmet. That is not true in the Devil Ray (see post 17 for dimensions).

That may affect the usefulness of the additional straps.

I also wonder about the helmet's legality, Snell approval, warrantee, etc., if I modify the Simpson in that fashion.

[Rick Kean]

Valid objections from many angles; they are tucked up inside nicely though. Outasight

[DaveW]

Valid objections from many angles; they are tucked up inside nicely though. Outasight

Also, I think the anti-rotation makes a lot more sense on a motorcycle, where there is no HANS. In an impact, the HANS itself is sort of an anti-rotation device, since once the tethers are snug, the helmet should not rotate much.

I need to get rid of the aero lift in any case, so I will approach it from that angle.

[dalz]

Simpson helmets have had that rotating-on-the-head issue for just about forever - something in the internal shaping of the helmet allows it to easily rotate on heads of certain shapes. We've actually seen helmets flip right off of customers heads in frontal crashes. Scary stuff.

Saw that at a dirt-track sprint car race. Car was flipping foward end over end, with one final hard wheels-down smack, launching his helmet 30 feet out of the car. Guy was woozy but all right.

Most head buffeting issues are car-driver-head-helmet unique. You never know what little adjustment can fix it.

[Rick Kean]

... awkward in shape for some peoples, which may resist in watching clearly during fast speeds. ...

ESL?

[glenn cooper]

Simpson helmets have had that rotating-on-the-head issue for just about forever - something in the internal shaping of the helmet allows it to easily rotate on heads of certain shapes. We've actually seen helmets flip right off of customers heads in frontal crashes. Scary stuff.

I don't know if other manufacturers have this same problem or not (I've only heard of it with Simpsons), but my advice for years has been that if you can grab the back of the helmet and rotate it either significantly forward or all the way off (with the chin strap tightened, of course), put it back on the dealer shelf and buy something else - a helmet that comes off like that is worse than totally useless.

There is a simple, 4 letter word that offers a fine solution to your problem: Arai

[DaveW]

Too bad I didn't know about any of this before I bought it...

After more thought on this subject, I am thinking that the real cause of the pivoting over my eyes may be that the CG of the helmet is above its center of rotation on my head, and that G-loads under braking are causing it to pivot forward as I approach corners. That actually fits the symptoms more closely, since the pivoting only seems to happen going into turns while I am braking heavily. The lifting is most noticeable at higher speeds, so the two phenomena may not be directly related. If this is the case, then the duck-tail spoiler I mentioned previously may cause enough downforce at the rear to eliminate the pivoting.

Since the helmet only weighs around 3-lb total, it shouldn't take much.

If that doesn't work, I may have to get another helmet and just keep this one as an expensive emergency spare.

[kea]

Maybe you should try fitting a Bell Helmet ?
They will be at IMIS in December.

[DaveW]

Maybe you should try fitting a Bell Helmet ?
They will be at IMIS in December.

Unfortunately, Bell helmets just haven't fit my head very well. They put pressure on the sides of my face at my eyes, and cause vision problems.

If the aero fixes don't work, I'll have to go through the process of trying on various helmets, and will include Bell, since their helmets or my head shape may have changed since I last tried them. However, I won't do that until after I drive again next April.

[DaveW]

Also, I think the anti-rotation makes a lot more sense on a motorcycle, where there is no HANS. In an impact, the HANS itself is sort of an anti-rotation device, since once the tethers are snug, the helmet should not rotate much.

I tried today to pivot it off my head. It stops just far enough forward to block my vision, and will not go further. So I don't think it is a safety issue, except for not being able to see...

[kea]

A drive over to Indy for the IMIS show, and you can try on all their helmet models, SO IF, you need to make a change, you know how different they all fit.

[Rick Kirchner]

Dav - like you I have a "simpson head" Tried a Bell, no joy. IMHO, simpson has virtually given up on our form of racing - their line is more suited to NASCAR, sedans, and drags.

Tried a HJC - great fit, aero tweek add-ons, at a fantastic price. Unfortunately over the past couple of years they figured out they only need to be somewhat cheaper than the big boys - not half as much........And they dropped the AR-11, which was a true formula car helmet.

[glenn cooper]

group buy!

[a. pettipas]

For oval head shapes (Bell seem to fit round heads better) the HJC Si-12 is a great lightweight helmet @~3lbs and great value @$700 for SH2010, but as Rick alluded to it is not a small eyeport helmet, nor is it particularly large like a Simpson Voyager...also great ventilation and works exceptionally well with eyewear.
Stilo is another great choice for oval heads and they offer narrow-eyeport designs in both composite and full carbon fibre construction.

IMO Dave, your current lid is able to move and rotate waaay too much on your head to do it's job properly.

[B Reid]

Dave-
A suggestion for the wind deflector- I have used old clear helmet visors and cut/trimmed them to fit the front cockpit opening. Use a heat gun to lightly heat it and you can shape it perfectly. I had 2- a low one for some tracks and a taller one for others. Also helps greatly with the buffeting you get when right behind someone at high speed.

Worked great on Indy Lights cars and it also worked on the Van Diemen a couple years ago.

Bob

[DaveW]

A drive over to Indy for the IMIS show, and you can try on all their helmet models, SO IF, you need to make a change, you know how different they all fit.

Thanks, Keith. I may do that if I can arrange it.

[DaveW]

Dav - like you I have a "simpson head" Tried a Bell, no joy. IMHO, simpson has virtually given up on our form of racing - their line is more suited to NASCAR, sedans, and drags.

Tried a HJC - great fit, aero tweek add-ons, at a fantastic price. Unfortunately over the past couple of years they figured out they only need to be somewhat cheaper than the big boys - not half as much........And they dropped the AR-11, which was a true formula car helmet.

I tried to get some info out of HJC last winter when I was helmet shopping. They totally ignored my many phone and other inquiries, so I wrote them off.

[DaveW]

Dave-
A suggestion for the wind deflector- I have used old clear helmet visors and cut/trimmed them to fit the front cockpit opening. Use a heat gun to lightly heat it and you can shape it perfectly. I had 2- a low one for some tracks and a taller one for others. Also helps greatly with the buffeting you get when right behind someone at high speed.

Worked great on Indy Lights cars and it also worked on the Van Diemen a couple years ago.

Bob

Thanks.

I already made and attached a small one out of aluminum. My cockpit is tall as it is, so there is only ~1/2 inch to play with so it doesn't block vision.

I also made a tape-on duck-tail helmet spoiler out of PVC sheet that I can attach in a minute if the windscreen doesn't fix the problem.

[Earl Zwickey]

Dave,

Any updates on your efforts with the Devil Ray?

Thanks,
Earl

[BURKY]

Dave,

Any updates on your efforts with the Devil Ray?

Thanks,
Earl

I'm, curious as well..