Titanious!

[Christopher Crowe]

Has anyone used 530 titanium chain?

Thanks,

Chris

[starkejt]

Is there a true titanium chain, or are you referring to the deceptively-worded "Titanium series" chain?

[Christopher Crowe]

Josh,

It's titanium -- from an American outfit named Krause. The idea of reducing rotational mass is why I'm exploring it. And surprisingly, the prices are not too prohibitive.

Regards,

Chris

[starkejt]

I may be wrong, but I believe the reason those seem so cheap is that they are not made from titanium, but rather are coated with TiN or TiAlN, like the drill bits you see at Home Depot and the like with TITANIUM in huge letters.

[Christopher Crowe]

-- but man their ads are deceptive. Found the truth on a bike-site:


Just reading your post.....Krause uses the word "titanium" as a trade name; not as a material used. They really need to change that.....false advertising. chrome-moly is a steel alloy and a good material at that....lighter than steel...yes it is but it sure ain't "Ti".

Sorry for your grief.

peace.
__________________

Is there anyone who DOES make a 530 chain from Ti?

Thanks,

Chris

[R. Pare]

Chrome molys are not lighter than "steel" - all steels run about .284 lb/cu.in. There are some very small variations depending on exactly what elements (and how much of each) a particular alloy uses, but in general, all are considered to be the same density down to 3 decimal places (www.matweb.com)

Even if Ti chains were available, the max strength you will find will be about 195kpsi (and ungodly expensive!) whereas high-strength chains are usually case hardened 9usually .030 depth or so) to around RC57, giving it a case strength of around 285kpsi, and a core strength (depending exactly on which alloy is used) running between 170-230kpsi.

Ti also galls very easily against itself (and other materials), so I would expect that a chain in FB use would be extremely marginal at best.

[Daryl DeArman]

What about belts? Certainly much lighter and capable of transmitting the power...

Is it a question of expense with the required replacement interval? Do the FB rules require chain?

[JRMarchand]

no chain required in scca fb

i wonder if a kevlar belt reinforced with CF and titanium( cured at 800F) would be the next thing to have,

[R. Pare]

Jay Novak would be better at answering belt questions than I would because of his F500/600 experience, but I believe that belts are at least claimed to be slightly more efficient than chains, though whether or not they can handle FB HP under race conditions and still be lighter may be another issue.

Also, because of the width of any belt strong enough for FB purposes is going to be substantially greater than that of a chain, the next problems are connecting it to the engine and clearing the suspension.

[lancer360]

Some F500's run belts, but I had nothing but grief with them. You have to keep them fairly tight to make them work. The challenge on the F500 is you are driving a moving live axle. FB's would be much easier since you are going between two fixed points. The tension required though would but additional load on the transmission output shaft. It would probably require a bearing outboard of the front sprocket to help share the load. As Richard said, the belt to handle the power would be much wider than chain so packaging would be a challenge.

[Daryl DeArman]

How much wider are we talking? 2x?

Broken/tossed belts are going to cause a whole lot less damage than a broken/tossed chain...another possible benefit in packaging and weight savings. "Sprockets" would last a whole lot longer too.

Perhaps the replacement interval would be too short to make it desireable? However, somebody many years ago probably said the same thing about stickier tires

[Rick Kean]

520 chain, instead of 530, seems possible, with a 1 weekend lifecycle (?)

[R. Pare]

How much wider are we talking? 2x?

More like somewhere around 4-6 times wider, if not more.

[Evl]

You might want to look here:

http://www.gates.com/index.cfm?location_id=557

for engineering information on belts. I'm pretty sure my drive belt used to be a Gates GT2 of some spec or another.

-Chris

[lancer360]

I believe F500's are using 2" on up for belt width. The Kevlar and other high tensile fibers can wrap up and cause a fair bit of damage if I remember correctly when belts break.

[Franklin Futrelle]

They use belts in karts for less resistance on the 2 strokes. Heck on the dirt karts they cut every other tooth off for resistance. When i askedwhy we had not done it yet, my father told me, "if 1st place had a turd strapped on the front of his kart, everyone would have a turd on their kart next week. You just drive.".

[Daryl DeArman]

When i askedwhy we had not done it yet, my father told me, "if 1st place had a turd strapped on the front of his kart, everyone would have a turd on their kart next week. You just drive.".

True....or CF inner wheel covers....all that little stuff does add up though...and sometimes that turd is just to get you to focus your attention elsewhere.

I'm surprised we are talking about a belt 4-6x wider when belts 3.5x as wide are driving blowers on a TFD where the blowers themselves are taking about 800HP to drive.

Maybe, it's why their service life is so short.

[lancer360]

LOL! It is much easier when the service live is under 4 secs at full power! Must be nice though to have that kind of money.

[Jnovak]

I have lots of experience with both belts and chains over many years in F500.

It is my opinion that belts will NEVER live in an FB. The shift and other impact loads are way to much for the belts. In F500 where there is a CVT with little or no impact loads they still have problems. We were about the first to switch to chains in F500 and in over 10 years we NEVER had any kind of a failure while before with the belts we had all kinds of problems, ratcheting, constant attention, breaking belts etc.

When I was researching using chains, all the belt manufacturers and suppliers were telling me that a "properly" used belt was way more efficient than any chain. I can tell you that that is TOTAL BS as I built a test fixture and measured the resistance (steady state) of a belt drive vs a chain drive. A belt that was tensioned to the actual rates needed to prevent racheting had over 2 x the torque required to turn the sprocket at 1800 rpm.

Now a belt itself does have less inertia than a chain, however an aluminum rear belt sprocket weighs more than 4 times what an aluminum 530 rear sprocket weighs and a front sprocket (belt drive) is even worse.

Now let's talk cost:
aluminum front belt sprocket: $80
aluminum rear belt sprocket: $170
belt: $100
(my prices are from about 10 years ago so they may be different now)

chain front sprocket: $30
chain rear sprocket: $55
chain: $100

OK, all that said, I want all of my competitors to use belt drive, PLEASE.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Daryl DeArman]

LOL! It is much easier when the service live is under 4 secs at full power! Must be nice though to have that kind of money.

Actually the cheap guys try to get 3 passes out of a belt. My brother-in-law races a TAF capsule boat, years ago we were comparing notes/budgets...I don't know which is sillier the price per weekend spent on blower belts or tires

Back on topic---belts bad, chain good.

[R. Pare]

Fuggetaboutit !

[starkejt]

Show of hands: who saw the thread title and came in here looking for "tight anus," only to be sorely disappointed?

[R. Pare]

Show of hands: who saw the thread title and came in here looking for "tight anus," only to be sorely disappointed?

That could go hand in hand with the "tranny oil" thread in the FV section...........

[starkejt]

Worst mistake I ever made was clicking on a link labeled "leaking tranny fluid."

[R. Pare]

Worst mistake I ever made was clicking on a link labeled "leaking tranny fluid."

The only problem we heard about was that it took you 4 hours to un-click it!

[glenn cooper]

when you say "sorely disappointed"...

[starkejt]

You spin me right 'round, baby
Right 'round like a record, baby
Right 'round, 'round, 'round....

I predict some of you will appreciate the reference.

[Jnovak]

Show of hands: who saw the thread title and came in here looking for "tight anus," only to be sorely disappointed?

I applaud one of the finest devious minds know to mankind

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[bmsrac]

Hi Jay,

I thought you might be a good person to ask about sprocket suppliers.

I have just bought a 2010 JKS (Speads) from the UK to start up AUS F1000 in Western Australia (Perth).

I would like to find a supplier that can provide various sizes in both front & rear sprockets (preferabably split for the rear).

What do the bulk of the FB guys rin (aluminium or steel rear sprockets)?

Cheers,

Derek

[JRMarchand]

www.rebelgears.com

good customer service. mostly aluminum gears, many configurations and custom.

[LLoshak]

Just poking around here and saw Mikes post.

Dont do it. Destroyed a TI chain in less than a session. The chain and both gears, less than one session, rollers missing, lots of damage that I never saw using a steel chain.

IMHO theres only one chain to use. DID ZVM-X 530. Largest pins than any other chain. All other chains I tried required a tightening after every session. The ZVM-X is extremly reliable. And the best chain is one that is used but in still good condition and nice and loose. A new chain definately robs a bit of power, so get em on early in the season, dont slap a new one on for the runoffs!

Stay away:

http://sidewindersprockets.com/titanium_chain.html

[crowe motorsports]

Any reports on this chain?

http://store.schnitzracing.com/ek-chain-530-zzz-x-ring/