Wheel cover ban

[Parker]

Holy crap, that thing is seriously SCARY! I think the board of health qualifies that as a coffin. After you suffocate, burn, or bleed out they can just push it in the hole in the ground or roll it right into the furnace. Perfect!

Seriously, I wish a guy at the very top of the competition like Mike, would ask himself ,before they get too far down the path of "innovation", these questions.

1. After all my success, do I feel that I need this new component to win?
2. Do I want to win because my car is more slippery at a long fast track or because I can out drive the competition with equal equip?
3. Whether I wanted to be in this respected and influential position or not, do I want to lead my class down this path?

If the answer to 1 is "yes", please don't develop this component. If the answer is "no", please see question 3.

If the answer to 2 is "yes", for a more slippery car, please don't develop this component.

If the answer to 3 is "yes", please ask us first and not Tech. If the answer to 3 is "no",...


A general question, does anyone really think that "body" panels should move relative to other panels and/or the chassis?

Of course the answers to these questions and actions following these answers have drastically different ramifications if the driver is significantly farther down the field.


Anthony Parker, NER

[Tiago Santos]

On a side note, if you want younger guys to get interested in racing vees - black basket handle caracals, maybe with the addition of disk brakes, would be a great start! :P

[flat tappet]

http://www.eternalmachinery.com/ecar...al_d_black.jpg

If you gave the driver of this car a James Bond rebreather(nose clips and an O2 cartridge),then have him lie down further, you could seal the cockpit, use a video camera and small screen for viewing.........and reduce the drag coefficient(sp) on the car down to about .20......LOL.

[grapefarmeral]

So where in the body section of the GCR does it BAN the basket handle car?

Al

[Hardingfv32]

Seriously, I wish a guy at the very top of the competition like Mike, would ask himself ,before they get too far down the path of "innovation", these questions.

1. After all my success, do I feel that I need this new component to win?
2. Do I want to win because my car is more slippery at a long fast track or because I can out drive the competition with equal equip?
3. Whether I wanted to be in this respected and influential position or not, do I want to lead my class down this path?

If the answer to 1 is "yes", please don't develop this component. If the answer is "no", please see question 3.

If the answer to 2 is "yes", for a more slippery car, please don't develop this component.

If the answer to 3 is "yes", please ask us first and not Tech. If the answer to 3 is "no",...

1) No one is asking you to put these on your little old regional car. Save your complaints for your fellow regional drivers that 'you' feel are not play with the correct regional racing 'spirit'. This is SCCA National level racing! We race to win. We develop so we can win and continue winning.

2) Varacins gets just as much satisfaction from knowing that he has shown up with the best car as he does from his driving.

Besides how do you know it is his driving or the car? I say it is a superior car that is being raced with the driver at a 95% level. Fewer mistakes at 95% vs the other drivers requiring 100% to make up the advantage that Varacins has in car performance. You can see it in his times. His race times are seldom on par with his qualifing times.

3) Lead the class down what path?? Do you have any idea what a set of Penske shocks or a rear Ohlin cost? For you guys in the NE, how many of you have a Pastore exhaust system at around $1200-1700 or have had Pastore polish your transaxle for $500? Sure seems like you are picking and choosing where the money is allowed to be spent.

Again, this is SCCA national racing, you are not going to stop development. The competitors complaining are simply showing their hypocrisy with there response to the wheel covers. They are not smart enough, too lazy do it themselves or simply not willing to spend the money required to compete in SCCA National level racing.

If you regional guys are so worried, why are you not forming restricted regional classes, CFV? Is that too much work??

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

So where in the body section of the GCR does it BAN the basket handle car?

Al

It is the 90 deg bend requirement related to forward facing ducts.

Brian

[vdrcr]

Its's kind of funny. I've been toying with designing a vee and "basket handles" were something I was
contemplating. The rules seemed to rule it out. Now I know why... Looks like I need a history lesson...

Mike

[grapefarmeral]

Brian the GCR says that if the ducts are "within" the profile of C-12 they must mak a 90 degree turn. What if the ducts are outside of the profile? What if you duct thru the the cockpit area?

Al

[Parker]

Brian, as a regional driver who has been contemplating racing in more national races, I can tell you that if YOU represent national racing, you can count me out.

By the way, if what is written on APEX were to represent FV racing, I'd say that you are the single biggest problem with the class.

Anthony Parker, NER. "little old regional" 2008 Womer, Old mismatched Carrera Dampers, Transaxle of unknown origin and age, Roxanne exhaust (but since I've repaired it, maybe it's now a Parker), and better finishes than national drivers.

[FVRacer21]

If you regional guys are so worried, why are you not forming restricted regional classes, CFV? Is that too much work??

Brian

We tried it in the 90's and even though most of the "Club" Vees would run in the upper 1/3 of the field (some running on street radials) , people did not want to "detune" their cars. Right now in NER, the competition is about 12 cars deep as people have either bought cars or brought their cars up to the same level of engine, tranny, exhaust and shocks. So for right now - no one will step backwards. If there was a $1000, must have, that would separate the field again for a few years.

One thing in common about the Razor (Caracal D) and Mike's car - most Vees do not race on tracks like the Runoffs were respectively. NHMS, New Jersey, Mid Ohio, even Watkins Glen are not as aero sensitive as Road Atlanta and Road America. We will see what the revised Pocono is like.

ChrisZ

[Daryl DeArman]

1) No one is asking you to put these on your little old regional car. Save your complaints for your fellow regional drivers that 'you' feel are not play with the correct regional racing 'spirit'. This is SCCA National level racing! We race to win.

Yeah, no wankers at Nationals and nobody racing to win at Regionals.

[grapefarmeral]

Now before I sign off, retire for the night and dream of FAST, INEXPENSIVE and COMPETITIVE (aren't those the things dreams are made of)

Since were involved in semantics and interpretations, the rear locating arms as defined in Suspension C.3 section B " The rear axle assembly shall be standard VW sedan as defined herein with axle location provided by a single locating arm on each axle". The key word being LOCATING ARM.

Now go to C.9 Paragraph O "The rear locating arm(s), coli spring(s), and shock absorber(s) shall not be faired in and shall be visible from the side without removal or manipulation of any part or panel". The key word here is LOCATING ARM

Sleep on thet one....

Al

[iamuwere]

This is a fascinating thread. I get the feeling there are a lot of Obama FV voters and few Romneys.

[grapefarmeral]

Please leave the professional -politicians/politics out of these threads there's enough politics in the FV community to last a lifetime

Al

[grapefarmeral]

I guess if Mike's covers have been declared legal they are...I just have a hard time understanding how tech made the jump to these being "body"

After looking at the photos of the front "covers" I'm noticing the "body" that covers the axle tubes. Mike I'm not picking on you, as others have these body sections. If the measurement from the center of the "leading edge" to the center of the "trailing edge" on the bottom is greater than the top measurement it is an airfoil (wing). If you add the plexi ends that act as "end plates" you are changing the aspect ratio of that "airfoil" and actually making it wider (aerodynamically) without a penalty (or minor penalty) in drag.

Now if you look at the photo of the rear and go back to my last post last night, the "locating arms" are faired in as they are on many other cars.

Perhaps I'll make some "wheel covers" (not prohibited although wheel cover clips must be removed) that cover the entire wheel , like the old land speed cars, ie: Sir Malcom Campbell, etc. If I call them "wheel covers" then they must be ..

Just imagine a Razor with "wheel covers" now that would attract the young drivers...

Al

[Steve Davis]

...Perhaps I'll make some "wheel covers" (not prohibited although wheel cover clips must be removed) that cover the entire wheel...

Al

GCR says bodywork cannot extend (widthwise) past a line through the centerline of the front and rear wheels. You can't put bodywork on the outside of the wheel. Nor in front of the rear wheel past the wheel centerline. Can't be in front of the front wheels because that is also in front of the centerline of the beam.

In the pix of the older Caracal with the wheel fairings, that "bodywork" in front of the rear tire seems to be pushing the centerline limit pretty hard. That said, someone mentioned previously that those were "banned". To the best of my knowledge, they were NOT banned - no changes were made to the rules in that time frame. The reason they didn't proliferate is that they were a PITA and did not seem to perform a useful function. i.e. they didn't make the car faster.
Steve, FV80

[grapefarmeral]

Steve,

Your reasoning make sense, if I call my pants bodywork, but I'm not. I'll call them wheel covers and wheel covers are not illegal. "Body" would be illegal as you state. So it's semantics. How are these "things" body?

Al

[stroutmail]

[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]

FV according to the GCR: "highly competitive class that,

[/FONT]

[FONT=Univers]through consistent and tightly controlled component and preparation [/FONT][FONT=Univers]rules, emphasizes driver ability rather than technological development[/FONT]

[FONT=Univers]of the car. .... The goal of these rules is to maintain[/FONT]

[FONT=Univers]both the competitiveness and cost effectiveness of the class."[/FONT]

][FONT=Univers]American LeMans Series from their website: "a real-life laboratory to push the limits of automotive innovation and technology."[/FONT]

[FONT=Univers]The whole point with the FV rules is "tightly controlled" and "restricted" rather than "development". Not a spec class with no possibility for creativity, but with a class where development if limited.[/FONT]

[FONT=Univers]There are many in FV today that are "smart enough" and "ambitious enough" and "rich enough" to escalate "development" to a level well beyond what has been done so far but choose not to use those "resources" to insure that FV racing is about "driver ability rather than technological development". [/FONT]

[FONT=Univers]There are many venues that allow those who want to "dominate" based on "technological development" to participate--it just seems a little odd to be pursuing "development" in a class with technology from the 1940's. (Other than CF) I think what disturbs many is when "finding loopholes in the rules" is rewarded and applauded, as it seems to violate the emphasis on driver ability, car prepation and limited development. [/FONT]

[FONT=Univers]Seems to me that a prerequisite for future FV champions might be a few days of wind tunnel testing. Would we admire someone who takes that path?[/FONT]
[FONT=Univers]http://www.windshearinc.com/index.htm#home[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[Amon]

I'm less concerned about spending a one time $500 to $1000 for wheel covers
than $700+ for a set of tires, which has a competitive life of 4-6 heat cycles before
they're no longer useable for NATIONAL's if you want to run up front. There's also
been the steady creep up in entry fee's, but that's much more manageable if you
go to the DBL. National's in order to keep your overall costs down.
I also find it an insult to the Runoff's competitors at the amount they're charged for
entries, parking, camping and other items when it's their own club's championship,
and the club in reality is the one sticking it to it's own members. WTF mate!


Mark

[Charles Warner]

[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]
[/FONT][FONT=Univers]There are many venues that allow those who want to "dominate" based on "technological development" to participate--it just seems a little odd to be pursuing "development" in a class with technology from the 1940's. (Other than CF) I think what disturbs many is when "finding loopholes in the rules" is rewarded and applauded, as it seems to violate the emphasis on driver ability, car prepation and limited development. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

There are other "abilities" besides flogging a car around a track. Design, development, conceptualization, making it all work together. Sort of the whole-man concept. You seem to denigrate those who are smart enough or have enough insight to find "loopholes in the rules." There are rules. Plain and simple. There is a controlling body that enforces the rules. Change them or live with them but do not disparage those who work within them.

[stroutmail]

I would never denigrate smart, creative, insightful people. I would never denigrate any person--we are all God's children. I simply disagree with using intelligence and insight to search for loopholes in FV rules. My experience is that such activity leads to the unintended consequence of escalating development and cost, ultimately leading to reduced competition.

I would never denigrate the act of masterful (almost artistic) control required to drive a FV competitively (as done by Roger S and Nuby to name just two) as "flogging" it.

[grapefarmeral]

Charlie,

I don't think anyone is dissing anyone. It's the interpretation of the rules. How are "pants/wheel covers/etc" body work? If a body part has an airfoil shape with an end plate how is that not an airfoil. If the Razor was declared illegal, but meets all the rules for the body, why can't someone run that car. If you're not allowed to shroud or cover a locating arm, why are we allowed to do it. Even the figure c.12 is referenced as intended. Not actual or 'this is the drawing you must use' but intended. I think "intended" is arbitrary and/or ambiguous. Websters give the definition (google it) as: expected to be such in the future... When is the future? If we don't get some consistency will ther be a future?

Yes innovation is good. Arbitrary rulings are not. Consistency should rule. It's been said or intimated that Mikes car has been in the wind tunnel. Maybe yes maybe no. There are a few cars out there that for sure have been in the wind tunnel. My guess if you figured the cost of running in a wind tunnel for just one day the cost would exceed the cost of most FV competitors cars and yearly operating costs, some National guys included. That includes the cost of tunnel time, preparing all the various pieces that get tested, time off work, travel expenses and the hours pouring over the data from the test day. Is it fair? No rule against it. Is it in the spirit of FV? Again it's individual perspective. Those that have the cash and the inclination to spend it, think it's fine, those that don't feel it's not in the spirit. We're not F1 and even with their hundreds of millions of dollars budgets they are limited in testing. Why to control costs so all can compete.

Al

[Matt King]

Sounds like an argument for "resource restriction" in FV. I wonder if the SCCA is equipped to enforce that.

[grapefarmeral]

Matt,

Like they enforce the rules we have?

Al

[Matt King]

Matt,

Like they enforce the rules we have?

Al

That was kinda my point...

There really is no realistic solution to these debates about the "Unfair Advantage" in amateur racing. The options are basically A) step up and try to challenge the competition on somewhat equal terms, B) suck it up and try to have fun at whatever level you can achieve, or C) quit in disgust or protest.

[R. Pare]

How are "pants/wheel covers/etc" body work?

Try reading the CGR Glossary definition of Bodywork - it covers everything exposed to the airflow that is above the floorpan, so it would include these covers as well.

It's a terrible definition, since it would also include all of your suspension, the tires (once per revolution! ), etc. and is in drastic need of change. I've been after it for a few years now, but for whatever reason it hasn't been fixed as yet.

That said, however, it IS the GCR definition that we all have to go by for the moment.

[Hardingfv32]

I don't think anyone is dissing anyone. It's the interpretation of the rules. How are "pants/wheel covers/etc" body work? If a body part has an airfoil shape with an end plate how is that not an airfoil. If the Razor was declared illegal, but meets all the rules for the body, why can't someone run that car. If you're not allowed to shroud or cover a locating arm, why are we allowed to do it. Even the figure c.12 is referenced as intended. Not actual or 'this is the drawing you must use' but intended. I think "intended" is arbitrary and/or ambiguous. Websters give the definition (google it) as: expected to be such in the future... When is the future? If we don't get some consistency will ther be a future?

Yes innovation is good. Arbitrary rulings are not. Consistency should rule....

You clearly have no idea how to apply the rules. I would say you need to educate yourself about how the current set of rules is applied.

C.9.O This rule is the same for the rear control arm as it is for the rear shock and spring. We know most zero roll cars have the coil over assembly out of the air stream BUT visible from the side, so... as long as you can see the side of the control arm anything goes.

C.9.H 'Wings (airfoils) are prohibited. Airfoils, at zero AoA, are permitted, but 'wings (airfoils)' are not. To be a wing SCCA says it must generate down-force, etc.....

Brian

[grapefarmeral]

Matt,

I did know what you meant. The problem is not stepping up, or having fun at what ever level, it's the "RULES" we have and how they are applied. I love Formula Vee and I'm saddened the direction it's heading. I was at Nelson Ledges last weekend ( I needed a few races for renewal) and there were 5 Vees. The Golden Harvest Double used to draw lots of competitors, but not so recently. The member known on this forum as Amon was the youngest at 51 years old. Matt (not you) is somewhere around there in age and the rest of us were beyond government retirement age.

So is sucking it up or just going out and having fun at some level going to help the class? NO! I think that's what most here are interested in, helping/saving the class. Is saying screw all you who can't afford wind tunnel time, or new tires every weekend, or $10,00 motors, $30,00 cars go play somewhere else, going to help increase our numbers. If the price escalation continues the numbers will continue to decline.

We don't have sexy cars (except maybe the (banned?) Razor, high HP cars ( my farm tractor has almost as much as a Vee) so we need to make the class attractive. We want to attract the younger set, but the average 30-35 yer old (Google again) makes around $34, 000 per year. How do you sell $30,000 car , Trailer spares +++and $1500 a weekend to a market that makes less than startup investment and a years worth of racing in salary in one year. We need to control costs and the rules

Al

[Hardingfv32]

1) Any of you that are championing control of FV development AND have Penske and/or Ohlin shocks on their cars are hypocrites. It is as simple as that. You should be embarrassed to be participating in this conversation.

2) Since this is not a spec class, we are allowed limited development. Is one item of development per year asking for too much? I nominate the wheel covers for the 2012 FV development allocation. One item a year seems pretty limited to me.

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

And again, like in the case for spec tires, we have reached the point where no agreement will ever be made. The point where you can clearly point out the political inclination of each participant, their stance on economic issues and even their opinion on whether health care should be universal!

Half of us place emphasis on the first few sentences of the FV rules, that it SHOULD be about driver skill and car prep, that it SHOULDN'T be about technological development. We're happy to go on in this sort of "do the best for everyone involved" sort of spirit. Crazy, I know. The other half emphasizes loopholes and glossary definitions. To them, an unfair advantage is a good advantage, winning should happen at just about all costs. And I guess that's fine, to each their own.

Face it - we will never get everyone to agree on any of this.

[Tiago Santos]

We're hypocrites for having nice parts in our cars (that we pretty much have to have to compete) and wanting to control the need to buy even more shiny parts?

I sort of see the logic you're going for, but then again according to you, if I'm a lowly regional racer (which with carreras or steering dampers, I sort of would have to be..) I don't even get a vote in any of this.

[grapefarmeral]

Brian,

So now you're the only one that know how to apply the rules? The current set of rules is not applied consistently.

C.9.O If it's not a locating arm, change the name. You can't have one rule say you can't cover a "locating arm" and then decide "locating arm" in another rule is not the same. There must be consistency.

C.9.H If the "side pod/fairing" has a longer distance from leading edge to trailing edge on one side that will generate lift and if it's facing down it will create negative lift ie: downforce. With the flat plate on the end it increases the aerodynamic efficiency without a drag penalty. Are the "side pods/fairings" at zero AoA? The angle does not have to be severe to create lift/downforce... also I believe the big fat "airfoils" create better lift at slower speeds...

Al

[grapefarmeral]

We all beat the Spec tire issue to death with no conclusion, now we have a spec tire by default...
Just sayin...

[Matt King]

[FONT=Univers]

[FONT=Univers]C.9.O. The rear locating arm(s), coil spring(s), and shock absorber(s) shall [/FONT][FONT=Univers]not be faired in and shall be visible from the side without removal [/FONT][FONT=Univers]or manipulation of any part or panel.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

Since Al brought it up, how exactly does a zero roll car with a single coilover rear shock mounted above the transmission meet this requirement?

[Amon]

I think Al hit the nail on the head regarding Regional racing and FV! The National scene
seems to be okay for our class regarding entry numbers ( 17 at M-O & Nelson this year), however it's the Regionals in the area that have been hit hard with low FV turnout. And those who do show up for the regionals are graying and probably won't
be in the class by the end of the decade. My son just got his Novice permit this year
and was extremely frustrated by the lack of entries at the two regionals he ran, and is
looking forward to getting his National license just so he has someone to race against.
In two weeks at Nelson, there will be 3 drivers in they're twenties racing, but all three
have a father or close friend who have provided them the opportunity that is needed to get started at that age. Most young adults don't have the financial resources at that
age to race unless they use a family members or friends Vee, so we should be trying
to recruit drivers a little older, in their early 30's or 40's who have more disposable income to spend on racing. I'm not suggesting that we turn our backs on the youth,
but they're trying to start families, buy homes and usually are closer to the bottom of
the wage scale at that point. If we don't encourage younger drivers in greater numbers, then the class will continue to decline in numbers, especially on a Regional
level, which will be the future for the National level at some point.

Mark

[Matt King]

We want to attract the younger set, but the average 30-35 yer old (Google again) makes around $34, 000 per year. How do you sell $30,000 car , Trailer spares +++and $1500 a weekend to a market that makes less than startup investment and a years worth of racing in salary in one year. We need to control costs and the rules

Al

The simple answer is, we can't. Just like people in that democraphic don't tend to own yachts, personal aircraft, or thoroughbred race horses either.

Amateur motorsports has priced itself out of reach for a large majority of people due to myriad internal and external factors that have developed over the years. In some cases, like rising insurance and track rental costs, there was not much the governing bodies could do about it except try to manage the costs as best they could. But there have also been subtle factors at work that have driven up at least the perception of cost. The proliferation of professional prep shops, toter homes, and the desire and ability of a large percentage of competitors to spend whatever was desired or necessary on their hobby are factors I would put in that category.

[Amon]

Matt,

What upsets me is when a Dbl. National costs $200+ more than a DBl. Regional
at the same track, with the same number of days involved. This occurred this
year in our area, and it saved the National entrants money but the savings could
have been greater if the Region holding that weekend's race didn't charge so much...

Mark

[Daryl DeArman]

Since Al brought it up, how exactly does a zero roll car with a single coilover rear shock mounted above the transmission meet this requirement?

....shall not be faired in AND shall be visible from the side....

I think what most people accept as the rule, right or wrong, is that IF the components are visible from the side then they are not faired in. However, the word isn't OR, or THEREFORE....it's AND. Otherwise just make that section of the bodywork translucent.

[grapefarmeral]

So Matt, do we just throw up our hands and say Oh Well.... the class nees to be proactive about costs, continuity and recruitment. Formula FORD is now switching to HONDA, talk about proactive...

FV started in this country but other countrys have adapted to the changing times.. we need to find ways to make the racing competitive but at a reasonable cost for the class to continue. If we want to continue the old "Wine & Cheese" myth we deserve everything we get.

Al

[grapefarmeral]

Daryl,

How can we not see that the axle and locating arms are covered?

Al