Topper...you're going to be pleasantly surprised when I post up Ralf Schumacher's old Dallara-Opel for sale in the Classifieds section soon. I have some nice photos for you if you still wanted to copy the Opel Team's livery.
Topper vs Schumi...
Topper...you're going to be pleasantly surprised when I post up Ralf Schumacher's old Dallara-Opel for sale in the Classifieds section soon. I have some nice photos for you if you still wanted to copy the Opel Team's livery.
That's interesting, Dallara told me they believed I owned Ralf's car. There's no question I have one of the teams cars no matter which driver was in it so of course ill be thrilled to have the photo's.Originally Posted by Canadian Formula 3 Championship
Topper
Dallara F394 F3
Swift SE-3 FC sold
Chassis #'s
Ralf drove for 2 years with the Opel Team WTS, you have the 1994 model, I'm going to post up the 1995 model tomorrow. What chassis number is your's? This chassis number is 005.
It's 003.
Topper
Dallara F394 F3
Swift SE-3 FC sold
With a bit of coincidental timing and certainly not the track in question, an apple and oranges FB V F3 comparo......rinky-dink track configuration!
Mostly old F3s in front on the grid no longer eligible for the National championship, the newest being the blue and yellow 304 seen passing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...DO8SLiDTK0vA#!
Thanks, Bill ---
Do you happen to know anything about the qualifying times turned in for this event? Just trying to get an idea of the general speed comparability of the F3 and FB chassis.
Thanks much for the neat in-car!
Chris
This is about his best time for the weekend I think. Switching from the WF1, probably takes a bit to get used to as well.
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6351860...52.96T/View?32
Variables in the F3s are state and national level control tyres in use too. The only late Atlantic I know of (008) was doing minute laps a month earlier, but at a low key meet of less than a handful of cars, so probably not representative.
Edit: Can't get the link to work with the new website apparently, maybe this...
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/results/
2012 NSW Motor Race Championship - Round 6, 22/23 /9/2012??
Pos Car Driver Competitor/Team Vehicle Cap CL Laps Fastest...Lap Gap
1 66 Nathan Gotch AGI SPORT / SNAKE RACING Dallara F304 2000 2 8 7 0:59.7204*
2 29 Garnet Patterson PATTERSON RACING Dallara F301 2000 2 7 6 1:01.0537 0:01.3333
3 1 Glenn Lynch EAGLE TRANSPORTATION Dallara 397 2000 8 6 1:01.3823 0:01.6619
4 10 Gary Smith FORTE TRAILERS Dallara F3 2000 2 8 6 1:01.8840 0:02.1636
5 81 Ross McAlpine MOUNT PANORAMA SCHOOL OF MOTOR Dallara 304 2000 2 8 7 1:01.9003 0:02.1799
6 11 Robert Choon EDROY MOWERS Dallara F301 2000 2 7 7 1:02.6274 0:02.9070
7 111 David Choon EDROY MOWERS Dallara F3 2000 2 7 7 1:03.5250 0:03.8046
8 98 Adam Proctor AP RACING / STOHR Stohr F1000 999 3 8 5 1:04.6918 0:04.9714
9 55 Warwick Robertson FORMULA R Dallara 296 2000 2 7 6 1:05.0809 0:05.3605
10 80 Edward Gavin TRIPLE R RACING Cheetah MK 8 1600 7 6 1:05.5463 0:05.8259
11 7 Darren Choon ROBERTSON TRANSPORT Dallara Formula R 2000 2 7 7 1:06.3573 0:06.6369
12 88 Kevin Lewis TRIPLE R RACING Dallara F395 2000 2 7 7 1:07.4309 0:07.7105
13 28 Rodney Brincat FORMULA R Dallara 296 2000 7 7 1:08.3029 0:08.5825
14 4 Andrew Wlodek FRCA Dallara F304 2000 2 7 7 1:08.3256 0:08.6052
15 3 Robert Sviderskas RMS RACING Reynard 923 2008 3 7 6 1:08.6167 0:08.8963
16 26 Terrence Robertson FORMULA R Sirch 297 2000 2 6 6 1:10.3239 0:10.6035
17 37 Ron Coath R COATH Dallara F3 2000 2 7 6 1:14.1407 0:14.4203
18 24 Al Palmer AL PALMER REPAIRS Cheetah MK6 F3 1298 1 4 3 1:14.6529 0:14.9325
19 42 Ron Bennet ROBERTSON TRANSPORT Reynard 913 2000 3 1 2:26.0719 1:26.3515
Fastest Lap Av.Speed Is 169kph, 130% Of First 1 Is 1:17.6365, 130% Of First 1 Is 1:17.6365
R=under lap record by greatest margin, r=under lap record, *=fastest lap time
I only know of one guy who went from a WF1 to a Stohr F1000(and back and forth). The downforce he was used to was like night and day, of course.
That being said, to be only a couple of seconds off and the winner was under the track record says a lot. Looks like all the other cars out there were various F3 cars?
I am sure with a little more seat time those numbers will improve.
Jake Latham also went from a WF1 to a F1000 permanently, I'm sure he can chime in on this. Dempsey has both, his WF1 caught fire at homestead during race 1 of the winter nationals so he drove the f1000 during the next race and looked like he was driving on ice.
What I was trying to link to, was race 3, where he either got a better handle on the car, or a good tow down the front straight, F3 times remained pretty much the same....
7 98 Adam Proctor AP RACING / STOHR Stohr F1000 1:02.6545
Worst thing about the F3 cars, aurally, they're about as exciting as a wet fart I find.
Here's a non-championship race at Easter in one of the 307 merc powered cars at a track a bit less mickey mouse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRrQeZN9Mt8
simulations say a sub 2:00 is available, you'd need to be pretty keen to find the time coming down the hill.
Very cool track, but not a lot of runoff room before you're into the wall...In some spots.
Mosport
U.S. F3 (8/19/01) - Pole: 1:14.460 (Luciano Gomide, Dallara F300 - VW)
Formula Atlantic (8/30/09) - Pole: 1:12.060 (Jonathan Summerton, Swift 016.a - Mazda)
Watkins Glen
U.S. F3 (10/21/01) - Pole: 1:45.461 (John C. Antonino, Dallara F301 - VW), Race lap: 1:46.270 (Antonino)
Formula Atlantic (SCCA Nat'l 7/9/06) - Race lap: 1:45.633 (Mirl Swan, Swift 014.a - Toyota; (SCCA Nat'l 7/15/07) - Race lap: 1:45.074 (Hans Peter, Swift 014.a - Toyota)
Mont Tremblant
U.S. F3 (9/22/01) - Race lap: 1:32.393 (Luciano Gomide, Dallara F300 - VW)
Formula Atlantic (7/1/07) - Pole: 1:26.426 (Franck Perera, Swift 016.a - Mazda)
In 2007 F.A. used the chicane in turn 1/2 at Tremblant so subtract at least 2 (probably more ) seconds.
Hello all,
I am new to the forums but I am an old racer that took some time off. I have to say that Apex has a great group of guys and all of the information that I have read from everybody has been very constructive.
I have been out of racing for some years because I took a bit of time off to grow my business. 2 1/2 years ago my airplane crashed and left me in a lifeless heap. After 2 years of rehabilitation, I am returning to a nice SAFE sport. But here is the problem... I don't feel confident enough to once again campaign a technical high speed car, but at the same time, I don't want to waste money or have a graveyard of used cars as I hope to progress back to speed over the next few years. One thing I am certain of is that I want to go FAST and I want to be COMPETATIVE. Don't write this old dog off, I still have a fair amount of CRAZY left in me...So what to do then???
I have been reading about the F3 cars, and I have done quite a bit of research recently, and I too cannot find a spot in which they fit exclusively in our SCCA lineup here in the states. Additionally, I see the evidence that there was a failed attempt to promote a successful series. Perhaps it was an attempt at TOO much TOO soon. If you grow a tree faster than its roots can grow, the tree blows over in a light breeze.
Is this a genuine problem right now though? I fail to see why we cannot restrict this particular vehicle (as it is meant to be) on several levels with respect to horsepower, tires, rev limiting, etc to have the chassis fit into current classes? Competition from outside sources and vendors serves us ALL when it comes time to purchase our next machine. It is evident that Elan has a great product and they are extremely proficient at producing, servicing & tailoring their machines to specific classes, but without competition progress has shown to stall. Remember, we only went to the moon to beat the russians...and look what we got from the whole thing...VELCRO!
To purchase a 10 year old F3 from europe doesn't seem to be a very risky move right now, because from the material I have read, they are extremely safe AND still competative at reasonable costs (>$50,000.00). The problem seems to be more in the "How does the square peg fit into the round hole". We as a group need to address this with the SCCA and ask them for a game plan for a potential rollout.
I have recently made some inroads with several people at the SCCA and they have been extremely quick to respond as well as being very forthright with their responses. They seem to have a very OPEN door policy because they share OUR goals, and that is having SAFE competition with Competative combatants with FULL grids and support.
An overnight change ISN'T going to take place. As with ANY proposal, some people are going to have to bite the bullet and invest in a few testbed's to campaign in the short term. From the knowledge gained, there may eventually BE a full fledged series on our shores with several different levels of driver development, and who knows maybe there will some day be an american name on the side of a Formula 1 car that wins a race.
But I digress...back to the topic...
In shopping for a car, I was attracted to the cost controlled aspects of the FE, however, I have come to find that as fine a car as they are, they are "companions" to other classes when it comes to competition. Not a bad thing overall, but good because it provides a larger grid while still ensuring a high level of competition. I know that IMSA had done that for years and years in the pro racing ranks and it worked well. Why then can we not find a spot for these particular vehicles (F3)? From a standpoint of depreciation, if the vehicle was $125,000 in 2000, and it can be purchased for $40,000 today that is a residual value of 32% in 13 years. Let's assume that you Can purchase a competative FE for example for $25,000 (One just sold for that much). That car was $55,000 and was only purchased 6 years ago. That is an EQUIVALENT residual value of less than 20% (+- 5% deviation on either equation). So from an investment point of view, it actually makes sense.
If we can, let's go back to the performance of the car. If I DO purchase an FE, it will always be a tube frame car with a particular engine, tires, shocks and so forth. It will always be a car built for a given level of safety at a given velocity. Ostensibly, it will always perform the same way give or take minor improvements. So if I want to increase my speed, I either need to sell the car, or purchase another car. For reasons of divorce, I choose to stick to one at a time...whew...(hope my wife isn't an apex member). It WOULD be nice to have the carbon tub safety at the lower performance levels, with the option of ramping up the performance and moving into another competative rank at higher velocity. Another scenario for example...I want to race in FE and my son wants to race in FA. There IS an outside chance (albeit requiring some careful planning) that we can run the same car in both categories. It may seem like a crazy notion, but if I can blow the dust off the family album (yes, we actually DID have color photography when I was younger), I can remember campaigning the same go Kart in 5 different categories. In fact one year, I took home 3 top ten national trophies in three different classes, with the same machine under me.
In closing, I am more confused than ever with respect to my upcoming decision. I AM certain that I want to own a racing team and eventually have several cars so I can help develop some new young talent (that is once my wife falls in love with racing again). Personally, I feel that the F3 is like a swiss army knife...it is well built, has a lot of fine built in uses, is likely to be useful for years and years, but it is bulky in your pocket, so you are inclined to leave it at home. However, the FE is like a slender buck knife... It fits well into your pocket, it may not be as precision built nor can it fill so many needs, but it will always serve you well if you use it for its intended purpose...but it doesn't come with that little tweezer thingamabob to take a splinter out of your pinkie finger.
Perhaps this post belongs in a different forum, please advise if you feel I should move it.
Regards,
Safe racing...
-BoB
Last edited by robertkroll; 01.29.13 at 5:49 PM. Reason: misspelling
Have you looked into F 1000?
The F3 thing aint gonna work in usa too many cars already exist of similar speed and appearance
FF2000
Atlantic
F Mazda
USA even tried F Renault but that didnt last long either
and so for club racing the F3 cars did run with FA modern cars but had less bhp owners became fed up and sell the car
F3 is ok in uk eec as we have grown up with it and we adapt our club racing to accommodate them as libre cars or have F3 series to run them in
If you want carbon car for club racing then you are looking at later atlantic cars or buy F3 car and fit a motor that is not F3 with restrictor and you can have some fun at run what ya brung events
If i was in usa i would get atlantic car
if i was in UK i would get F3 car
@ robertkroll (post #55)
seriously? tell me you're not shilling for CF3C LOL
I'm going to relish in the moment when I prove all of the detractors wrong, as nothing will stop me from pushing this Championship through to fruition.
And if you know me or even just met me, then you know my words to be true.
FTFY
The problem with your figures is that a race car is not a race car. Even comparing 2 of the same cars you are going to have 2 very different prices due to current condition. Remember that most of the cost of a race car is operating cost. The current state of repair should generally be a factor in the selling price. I'm sure you could find an F3 and an FE that sell for the same price.From a standpoint of depreciation...
I don't quite follow your residual calculation, but race cars don't depreciate like street cars. An F3 is EOL with few places to run it, so the %value is lower than an FE, which you can still buy new. However used FEs have probably (mostly) stabilized in price and I imagine they will follow the economy. So if the job market ever comes back (housing is already coming back) then prices may actually go up.
There's zero chance for that combination.Another scenario for example...I want to race in FE and my son wants to race in FA. There IS an outside chance (albeit requiring some careful planning) that we can run the same car in both categories.
I would start with a car that is popular and easy to resell -- should you move to a faster car. FF or FE, depending on if you want to be in an open or spec class. F1000 or F2000 isn't bad from the "sell and move on" POV but as a starter car, man I don't know. Once you get on the grid you'll have a better understanding of it all.In closing, I am more confused than ever with respect to my upcoming decision. I AM certain that I want to own a racing team and eventually have several cars so I can help develop some new young talent (that is once my wife falls in love with racing again).
Lotus,
Not at all. I'm just trying to make sense of the new landscape in racing since the last time I ran. As I stated, I haven't made a decision as to my new path yet. Both sides make good arguments, and there doesn't seem to be a reason why some people are so passionate about it that it should be conflict.
I am not fond of the dilution of so many of the series' that has caused classes to run together. I am also never pleased to see one manufacturer gain so much market share, because that will ultimately cause cost escalation.
This may not be the right time for me to get either car. I will have to see how it all plays out. But thank you to all who have contributed, this is a good thread.
-BoB
Thanks for the input. I don't know what FTFY is (sorry, old guy). I meant Competition in the form of other vendors.
I didn't want to come across as an F3 vendor, the fact is that I will likely get an FE this year with aspirations for a second class in the not too distant future. My point was more about the inconvenience of class hopping in the current lineup.
Suppose for a moment that the chassis "X" was adopted in 4 categories of racing and all it required was an engine swap and the use of different tires. Rather than having so many cars for sale here, prep shops would be remanufacturing engines and dropping them in different vehicles over the winter. Than more people could afford to go racing, and afford to grow to more speed. The path to "Indy" lets say would be open to more participants. I know it is an over simplified example, but the spirit of my post was centered around that paradigm.
I remember 25 years ago there seemed to be many more cars around than today. It would be great to see that happen again for my son and future grand children. Racing in America is a hobby, but as I have traveled abroad I have seen racing in other countries is an addiction.
Regards,
-BoB
Bob, I understand where you are coming from. Eighteen months or so before I heard of Mark or the Canadian Formula 3 I had the chance to buy an F3 car that had or easy been imported to the states. At the time I thought I might homologate the car with the SCCA into either FA, FS, or even a dual homologation. I bought it and frankly I'm still not sure if I'll homologate it or just use it for track days.
I don't know Mark Tosa (Canadian F3) and I know he has rubbed some people here the wrong way. My personal opinion is that he is a hard driving, passionate salesman with the drive to get what he wants. I also suspect he might be perceived differently in person. While I can't vouch for him or his series on a personal level I can say that he has been very helpful in helping me track down the history and early photos of my car. Also, while I doubt that I would travel from the Gulf Coast to Canada to run in his series, I hope he is able to make it work in spite of the plethora of other classes out there.
Where you one of the 4 guys that plopped a 172 in a guys yard a couple of years ago? Your name rang a vague bell and I looked back. I remember that crash, the pictures and the surprised guy that that didn't hear the crash but heard people talking and came out to see what was going on only to see a wrecked plane on his lawn.
Topper
Dallara F394 F3
Swift SE-3 FC sold
Bob, everyone is going to tell you that their formula is the best one to join because it makes their class look stronger to have another car on the grid. They don't want their formula to fail so they don't have any category to run in anymore.
Formula 3 is perceived by some Apexers as a threat to their own class, and frankly I don't blame them because I'm offering a by-far better product at cheaper price levels, lower maintenance costs.
Really, what it comes down to in buying your next formula car is comparing apples-to-apples or cars-to-cars. Compare a Formula 3 car to any other open-wheel formula car in North America in every aspect; (performance, technology, reliability, maintenance, safety, price point) and then buy the one which only you think comes out on top.
It is more likely that they say it is the best because they think it is the best. That is probably why they are in that class to start with. It is all quite subjective.
Link to the post or it isn't true.Formula 3 is perceived by some Apexers as a threat to their own class,
I don't believe that a single person on here is in any way afraid of you or whatever it is that you are trying to do. More likely they are put off by your attitude towards everyone and their cars. See below.
You aren't offering a product at all. You have failed to provide any specifics about what you are doing, how you are going to do it, and why you will succeed where others have failed. It's great to see the F3 cars for sale on here. They are cool cars and I like to look at the pictures, but it's probably going to take more than that.and frankly I don't blame them because I'm offering a by-far better product at cheaper price levels, lower maintenance costs.
Mark, I don't see how offending possible drivers for your f3 series is going to help.
I'm not offending anyone at all, why would you take that personally...I'm only saying to the new prospective buyer to "buy the one which only you think comes out on top."
If you don't say so yourself
Because of your comment's in past thread's. There is no reason to be negative about classes that are alot more succesful then your's. Just sayin.
wrong
That bit was the only non-offensive part of your post.why would you take that personally...I'm only saying to the new prospective buyer to "buy the one which only you think comes out on top."
...look, we're not talking about "past threads" we're talking about this thread, and the fact that some here like to over-analyze and scrutinize every little word is just ridiculous really.
I said to the guy; Bob...that everyone will be biased towards their own formula class, and that is the truth. So for him to cut all that propaganda out of his equation and compare his choices based upon the things that matter; (performance, technology, reliability, maintenance, safety, price point) and then buy the one which only he think comes out on top. And if something like that gets some people here all bunched up in their panties, then really anything written on this forum will.
Whatever, But I do have people to race against next week.
Topper,
Yep, that was me. I was the guy that crawled across the lawn and lost consciousness and bled all over Wayne Donnigan's front stoop. I visited him a year later, and the cable from my headset was still in his front garden.
Interesting to find that you purchased one of the cars. How has it been running and who have you been running with (on the days that you have been to the track other than testing). Are you the only person in the area who has one?
-Bob
I hope you didn't run out of gas.....
Well, I for one have benefitted from Mark's posts. I am the proud owner of a Mexican Mariachi Sombrero shady hat. Complete with an adjustable chin strap so you can wear it hanging there on the back of your neck, still providing shade there. I managed to get my schedule changed, so I will be competing at Sebring next month. Any one interested in one of these should stop by and check it out....
Back to the thread.
Sombrero sales/rental, relative to same for F3, has a far greater chance to succeed in NA.
aaron
ask your NS neighbors Ingo and Lucas about Sombrero sales figures, then come talk to me.
Please don't get the wrong impression
Guys,
Please don't get the wrong impression from me. I am planning my return to racing, and I am trying to feather my way through the options and find the right path. It's not an issue of money or politics or agenda.
Frankly, I am not at all engaged or married to any one platform or series. What I see is a fragmentation that I didn't see when I raced as a YOUT. It isn't important where I end up, I am a middle aged man who needs a bit of excitement in my life. The fact remains that a kid growing up in Europe or South America has a more defined and planned path to greatness than we can offer the kids here in America.
Brett, to answer you...
-Nope, motor go boom...plane land like stone...news at 11
-ROFL
-BoB
Glad you're OK- plane crashes usually don't go well.....
The fact remains that a kid growing up in Europe or South America has a more defined and planned path to greatness than we can offer the kids here in America.
Then, why oh why is the F2kCS and F1600CS full of drivers from South America, Europe, and Austrailia?
Last edited by Purple Frog; 01.30.13 at 9:17 PM.
I'm thinking a Mini Formula Indy series would make a great feeder for Canadian F3.
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