Have the Canadian F3 cars run at Mosport?

[Christopher Crowe]

Maybe an F3 car has tested there. Does anyone know an approximate lap-time for these cars at Mosport?

Thanks,

Chris

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

no...they have not run there yet...yet, but it will be awesome to see when they do next year.

[Lotus7]

FWIW, we did a 1,14 in a ProMazda 7(8?) years ago

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

Christopher…we did however run the car at the Summer Classic at Circuit Mont-Tremblant which acted really as our shakedown weekend. The car had a fresh engine with 0 miles, and I didn’t want the driver Antoine Bessette to push it and risk damaging the car. But we were immediately one of the fastest cars on the circuit doing 1:36’s very comfortably.

We opted to run the car at 80% of it’s true potential and the driver’s capability due to a number of reasons. Firstly, it was our shakedown, secondly, the driver was a little rusty from not sitting in a race cockpit for over 2 years, thirdly, this car was a showcar for marketing purposes and to sell to a future CF3 race team. It was never intended to be raced repeatedly by myself.

So we ran the car with a full 40 liter tank during every session making the car heavy and with the steepest angles on the front and rear wing’s main plains, (but sacrificing speed on the straights). The car is using a small air restrictor of 24 mm and can be opened up to 31 mm for increased power, (but with shorter engine life between rebuilds).

We could have also run the Shell URT 115 octane but opted for the 100 because we didn’t have the Bosch software installed in a laptop to set-up the correct engine mapping to run at these levels of octane, (but I do have this software program). Opening up the air restrictor and running higher octane will see an increase of 25 horsepower.

There was only myself and the driver wrenching it as best we could with a socket set and allen wrench set. I had no scales, or suspension set-up or even a race mechanic to optimize the car’s set-up. All of these safe factors surely sacrificed our straight-line speed and overall lap pace.

We started in 12th position for Sunday’s race due to a penalty of forgetting to put a race number on the vehicle, (rookie mistake!) but came home in 2nd Place. Our fastest lap time (1:36.297) was only 44/1000th of a second slower than the fastest lap time (1:36.253) of a Formula Atlantic which was properly set-up with suspension equipment and scales, ratio changes, 2 race mechanics, etc.

Hence, we’ve undoubtedly proven that this car has alot more untapped performance to bring out if we ourselves were optimally set-up with proper tools, race mechanics and racing flat-out. Driver Antoine Bessette, (former Toyota Atlantic driver) believes we could knock another 5.0+ seconds off our lap times to get into the 1:31’s bracket. I would dearly love to see this happen next time to put any doubters at rest.

[Rick Ross]

It is very well known that F3 cars are well-developed and very quick. You have nothing to prove there.

Who cares if you are faster than an FA, FB, etc.? You will not be racing against cars running in different classes and under different rules. I assume that your goal is to eventually be racing against other F3's. In that case all that matters is that you have the first F3 to cross the finish line.

BTW, scales, mechanics, radios, etc. do not guarantee good lap times. You still need people who know how to set-up, maintain, and drive the cars.

[Christopher Crowe]

-- but apparently an Atlantic car did a 1:26.4 there (according to the track's website). Apparently that was with only the first chicane (have no clue as to what this really means at Tremblant).

Just very curious about just how fast the pretty Dallara F3 cars actually are.

Thanks for the info!

Chris

[Paddy O'Brien]

The F3 series did run Mosport when that series ran about ten years ago. I knew Paul Dana and he ran one of Antonio Ferrari's Dallara/VW's at Mosport, Paul told me that it was the most fun he ever had in a racecar. I had the chance to do a couple of short practice sessions in Ferrari's F3 car at Putnam Park and while it was faster than an F2000 car it had no-where near the grip or power of my Formula Atlantic.

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

my mistake, I thought you were talking about the manufacturer. The FA has more horsepower but from the sacrifice of reliability. You can tweak F3 engines to match FA engine power but you won't have the 4,000 or 5,000 or even 7,000 engine rebuild intervals that are common with an F3 motor.

[Christopher Crowe]

-- do you happen to recall the approximate F3 lap time at Mosport?

Thanks,

Chris

[JohnPaul]

The F3 series did run Mosport when that series ran about ten years ago. I knew Paul Dana and he ran one of Antonio Ferrari's Dallara/VW's at Mosport, Paul told me that it was the most fun he ever had in a racecar. I had the chance to do a couple of short practice sessions in Ferrari's F3 car at Putnam Park and while it was faster than an F2000 car it had no-where near the grip or power of my Formula Atlantic.

Basically sounds like an expensive FB.....

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

...at $20,000 - $30,000 for F3 cars, seems like they are cheaper than FB's with double the capacity.

[Rick Ross]

Basically sounds like an expensive FB.....

That's one way of looking at it. Kind of like saying that an FB is just an expensive FV.

[Paddy O'Brien]

I do not recall F3 lap times at Mosport but at Putnam on a very cold day with old tires, lap times were right at FC lap record pace with several top drivers having a go. If I had to guess, pro FM or a top FB would be close. No way a F3 could keep up with an Atlantic with similar drivers. Top speed of an F3 might be better than Atlantic because of much less drag, so it may be closer at a fast track like Mosport.

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

...many people on here would like to try and discredit the performance or safety of a Formula 3 car because they obviously see this "newly-arriving" Formula as a threat to the chassis platform that they are currently building and selling to other Apex members, or the chassis that they are trying to base their own new Formula on, or other individuals whom are associates of the previously aforementioned parties.

And honestly, I don't blame them because a modern Formula 3 car with a fresh engine and gearbox selling for $30,000 - $50,000 does provide a better alternative to what most people have been accustomed to running here in North America for the same price and maintenance costs. Maybe if it wasn't an Apex newbie saying this it would be more accepted as if it came from an Apex veteran or someone else whom you know personally.

A Formula Atlantic engine does have more horsepower than a Formula 3 engine, but that's because the FA motor is so tweak to the max and so highly-strung that it can only go to 1,000 miles before a rebuild. This is not to say that a Formula 3 engine cannot be tuned to do the exact same thing. An F3 engine can easily match the same power output of an FA engine if one wants to. But then you wouldn't enjoy the 7,000 mile rebuild interval with the Formula 3 Toyota engine instead.

That being said, as in the beginning of this thread, our Formula 3 car was only 44/1000th of a second off the fastest lap time of an Atlantic, (both with very good drivers in them). And we were severally-limited in our performance due to a number of factors which I've already pointed out. There also was a Formula 2000 car and a Pro Formula Mazda car in the race which couldn't keep up. So if one wanted to compare the performance levels of all these different types of formula cars in the same race conditions, we've already done it.

[Christopher Crowe]

I don't think anyone here has said anything negative about F3 cars. I think folks are just curious as to their performance relative to the more familiar open wheel categories running this side of the Atlantic.

I think the F3 cars are neat!

Chris

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

...yes, it's just a debate on which is faster, but people on here shouldn't think that an FA car will crush an F3 car. Infact if you take the air restrictor completely off the F3 car it would be quite the opposite.

The current performance levels between the two formulas are the same despite the Formula 3 restrictions, in an open and free market it would differ. But for an FA car to be much, much quicker, I don't think so.

[JohnPaul]

...at $20,000 - $30,000 for F3 cars, seems like they are cheaper than FB's with double the capacity.

based off your classifieds those are 20+ year old cars. Anything remotely newer are in the 100k range. At that price it better be double the capacity of an FB (but based off Paddy's estimates are not)

Kind of like saying that an FB is just an expensive FV.

Definitely not. read Paddy's post below.[FONT=Calibri]
[/FONT]

I do not recall F3 lap times at Mosport but at Putnam on a very cold day with old tires, lap times were right at FC lap record pace with several top drivers having a go. If I had to guess, pro FM or a top FB would be close. No way a F3 could keep up with an Atlantic with similar drivers. Top speed of an F3 might be better than Atlantic because of much less drag, so it may be closer at a fast track like Mosport.

Based off this very respected driver my point was very valid and right on point. Not as fast as and FA but faster than an FC.

...many people on here would like to try and discredit the performance or safety of a Formula 3 car because they obviously see this "newly-arriving" Formula as a threat to the chassis platform that they are currently building and selling to other Apex members, or the chassis that they are trying to base their own new Formula on, or other individuals whom are associates of the previously aforementioned parties.

No one is trying to discredit you and I could care less if you were new, old or purple. I based my comment off what Paddy's experience was. I love the way the F3 cars look and I'm sure they are top of the line but bottom line they don't seem much faster than an FB that is half the cost. Add in the fact that there is no competition in North America and it makes for an uphill battle to get people to buy them and get involved in your series. Either way I wish you the best. A successful formula series is great regardless of the class.

[Peter Olivola]

My ex-wife always said I have the gift of the bleeding obvious so I'll just point out that if you take the air restrictor off it's no longer an F3 car.

...yes, it's just a debate on which is faster, but people on here shouldn't think that an FA car will crush an F3 car. Infact if you take the air restrictor completely off the F3 car it would be quite the opposite.

The current performance levels between the two formulas are the same despite the Formula 3 restrictions, in an open and free market it would differ. But for an FA car to be much, much quicker, I don't think so.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

My F3 car was a 2000 Dallara run in USF3 specs (less than 200hp, rev limited) and it was as quick as the Pro Mazda we had at the time.

It was alot faster than our Zetec F2000 cars, required about the same maintenance, maybe a little easier on the brakes and gearbox. With all the spares, spare wheels and extra motor the car was worth about $40k, maybe a little less.

These cars are a work of art also. Trying to compare one to a FC or FB car is like comparing a Camaro to a Ferrari - sure they might be about the same in the quarter mile, but which one would you really want.

My experience with these tells me that a 2 or 3 year old F3 falls someplace in between an Pro Mazda and a proper Atlantic.

[JohnPaul]

These cars are a work of art also. Trying to compare one to a FC or FB car is like comparing a Camaro to a Ferrari - sure they might be about the same in the quarter mile, but which one would you really want.

My experience with these tells me that a 2 or 3 year old F3 falls someplace in between an Pro Mazda and a proper Atlantic.

I get it, I get it. I wouldn't kick an F3 "out of my bed". As far as the Ferrari/Camaro comparison: If I was going to pick up my girlfriend I pick the Ferrari but if I was going to the track I'd pick whichever was faster. Funny, I was testing at Homestead a few weeks ago and was out with a bunch of the Ferrari and Porsche race cars. I was lapping them. A few guys come over to the garage and ask what I had as a motor, when I told them an M/C engine they looked like they wanted to puke. It's all about going faster.

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

There are plenty of good Formula 3 cars at many different price levels comparable to FB, and any car at $20,000 or less will be "20+ years old", but not $30,000 cars. I would rather have a 1998 Dallara F398 at $25,000 or a 2000 Martini MK80 at $30,000 than a more recent FB at the same price point...which I find is much higher actually.

Searching through the FB Classifieds section I'm mostly seeing prices of $50,000 - $60,000 for a recent Stohr FB. For that kind of money there are incredible 2004 Dallara F304's and 2006 Ligier or Lolas for the same price...with fresh everything; engine, gearbox, clutch, brakes, dampers, etc. There will be a great F302 example posted soon.

[JohnPaul]

let me ask the question: who exactly are you racing against? how many people in the US race these cars? how many people have joined your championship? how many tracks are you racing at? you see where I'm going with this? there are plenty of great cars that you can go out an buy but then you are just driving around the track not racing. why would anyone go out an buy are race car and not have anyone to race against?? I'd rather have an FV and have people to race.

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

JP...I see where you are going with this, but you'll also see where we'll end up in a year's time. We're just getting started, this was the first summer that we came out publicly with the project. And there will undoubtedly be Formula 3 cars brought into North America over the winter months.

Building a Championship takes time ofcourse. I can't put a race schedule together yet if I don't have enough teams with cars to do so. It takes time to import these cars and get teams set-up with equipment, and when we finally do then you will see 10+ cars minimum and a race schedule.

I have to build up the Formula 3 marketplace first which currently doesn't exist here yet. But it's no different than when FB or FV didn't have their own marketplaces set up. And FB or FV surely took time to get everyone; (partners, suppliers, race teams, drivers, circuits, etc.) involved before they were up and running.

[Christopher Crowe]

The F3 cars have to fill a grid to have a race. And initially at least, that's going to be a challenge in North America.

What I was trying to determine is what other formulas might race equitably with the F3 cars to fill out grids and produce a fun-to-watch-fun-to-compete-in auto race.

FM? FB? FA? We all have an opinion (my guess is that the FB cars would be closest to the European formula in terms of lap-times), but who knows... Soon there will be new, same-track times to compare.

I say good luck to the new Championship regardless.

Chris

[Brett Lane]

Personally, I think F3 cars are pretty damn cool. The goal would be to increase the popularity in the US to the point where you can even think of a series.

FM and FE were originally homoligated as FA. The problem with that is restricting(or not) to run with them. The other problem is how the Atlantic community would feel about that. It would increase the car counts, at best. Then there is always FS. There was an F3 running in FS a few years ago in Florida. If these cars are what you say they are, run one uncorked in FS at a few regionals. If you can hand a few Atlantic drivers their hat under those curcumstances, you might get some peoples' attention.

Then there is the viability of running a series. These days in this economical climate it seems it is where the best bang for the buck is. The Pro Mazda series seems way expensive, but still survives. I think as an outsider that the F2000 series(s) have that market cornered. You would have to market F3 as a more economical series than F2000, but that would be a pretty tall order.

Good luck to you.

Brett

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

F3 - FA - FB - FC - FE - FF - FM - FS - FV - FST - F? did I miss any? I already lost count. Seems like everyone out there is trying to become the next Dallara and build their own makeshift chassis platforms out of their garages and start their own Championships. Myself in a similar position.

It's obvious that there is a severe problem in the motor racing ladder, (especially in the U.S.) with far too many formulas all vying for the same piece of pie. This hurts everyone down the line; sponsors, partners, suppliers, race teams, drivers, circuits, media, etc., etc. as business is taken away from each other and we all end up with 10 cars on our own grids.

I do believe that the Grand Am/ALMS buyout is only the tip of the iceberg as we'll see more and more rival formulas come together to produce a better show with healthier grids and their merged Technical Partners to back it. This will take some time, but it's for the better and inevitable.

[JohnPaul]

dude, you are way off and need to slow down. Belittling car classes and builders other than F3 and Dallara is not going to win you any friends on this forum. Just about everyone here does this for fun and have no aspirations of "climbing the ladder to f1". If you want to pull young talent to join your series you need to seek them out and convince them to join. But the young guns I know go to Europe and get it done. The way you are coming off on this forum is not going to do you or your series any good, especially with 2012 being the year of Jon Lewis (try back in 2013)

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

JohnPaul...I am not "way off" and I'm not belittling any car classes on here. Infact the F3 acronym was the first one that I mentioned in that list for our crowded marketplace, and it's my effort!

And my emphasis was not on "young talent climbing the ladder" it was about too many similar formulas all taking market share way from each other, and us as a whole are suffering from it.

If you don't like what I write then that is fine with me, we don't have to be friends...and I'm not trying to be. But I'm not insulting anybody at all, you're just taking this thread way too personally.

And lastly, I'm not going anywhere, I'm staying.

[Brett Lane]

You are right. There are a lot of classes out there, and there is a valid argument for bringing that number down. That is the problem you face. To get exposure in the U.S., you will have to homologate F3 into one of those classes.

Then you have to find your niche(sp? I hate that word). in the U.S. market. With so many classes, that would be tough.

Or you could go outside the SCCA, and sanction F3 on your own. You are free to do what you want. Either way, belittling guys who build cars in their own shops here will not help you much with this open wheel community. If you keep a positive open minded approach, so will others.

Again, good luck.

[Charles Warner]

Maybe I missed this, but . . . do you own the legal rights from the FIA to establish a recognized Formula 3 series? Or, are you using the name to start a renegade series using the same rules and equipment?

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

Yes, I've been working with the FIA on this for awhile now, more than a year. Had many meetings and discussions with 2 separate FIA ASN Presidents, also been talking with the FIA Single Seater Commission President Gerhard Berger.

[brownslane]

Agree with you, Charlie. You cannot just start a series without sanctioning and support.

But to the point about pricing.....there are two FB cars for sale in CASC right now; the first one is a Reynard conversion. Has run 24's at Mosport with a stock 2006 GSXR. With a 2009 it would be a little quicker. The other is a car I built some years ago, and that Jeremy Hill took to the FC runoffs a couple of years.....I believe it is running a 2008 GSXR and is capable of 22's at Mosport (with a good driver)...

The Reynard is asking $7,500. The old Jeremy Hill car is asking $12,500. Both are asking prices. I would hands down purchase one or the other of those cars over an F3. Why? Because I have a place to race it, and similar cars I can race against.

When you have a viable race series with competition you will have a market for your cars. Until then, even as we all think that current F3 is a cool car, we cannot afford to buy what essentially is a track day car. I can also suggest that a 20 year old Reynard in FB would be as quick as a 20 year old F3 car....and it is about 1/3 the price. presently the return on investment is just not there.

Life time engines. Most buyers of race cars are competitive guys (and gals)....nobody is going to really let an engine run 7 thousand miles without rebuilding it...even if it still runs. If you want to run at the front, you will twist and tweek the motor to get the maximum from the engine...but for a track day car, I can see that as a major selling point....just not for pure racers. And all it takes is a missed shift......and you will need to rebuild regardless!

The way I see you could market F3 in north america is costly; buy a dozen similar cars, sell/rent them out and pay for a sanctioned series somewhere...places like NASA are pretty accommodating as an example. Perhaps try to set up a series in conjunction with HSR....then you have a race venue, a sanctioning body, a supply of equal (competitive) cars and you will be able to find willing participants. I figure year one would cost $2.5M or so...Charlie, care to comment? You are a smart man who knows what things cost?


Best, Tom

[brownslane]

Yes, I've been working with the FIA on this for awhile now, more than a year. Had many meetings and discussions with 2 separate FIA ASN Presidents, also been talking with the FIA Single Seater Commission President Gerhard Berger.

So presently you have nothing. Per my previous post, there is a way to make this happen.

Tom

[Paddy O'Brien]

F3 cars are absolute jewels and ten years ago I considered selling my Atlantic to finance rentng a Dallara in the USF3 series. That series had backing from VW, a series engine builder(to control cost) several pro teams commited, a tire deal, cash prize money and a much better general economic environment. But they never had more than about 8-10 cars on a grid and many of those rides were given away by teams to build the numbers. USF3 died after less than 10 races. Why is this going to work now?

[DFR Dave Freitas]

This might be the right time for a proper F3 series. With budgets for USF2000 in the 200k range and Pro Mazda around 400k (both using cars about 10 years old) you can see how something like this would be appealing to a lot of people.

I say, let the guy take his shot and see what happens. Having a 50k Dallara as a FS or track day car at the end of the day wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

Paddy...2000 and 2001 was a "much better general economic environment" than it is now? Wasn't that the time when the NASDAQ 'Bubble Burst' and went from 5,000 to 1,500 (and more), and everyone thought that the end of the world was near?

I highly doubt that any newly-upstarted sports or entertainment property which relies heavily on sponsorships and partnership funding would have survived during that time period, regardless of what it's target market was.

[brownslane]

Dave, great insight around Pro Mazda....wow, I did not realize they were that expensive....

Back to the challenge of building a series. Nobody wants to be the first guy into the pool. You need to move this forward by bringing in a whack of cars, set up a series, and let the fun begin!

T

[Canadian Formula 3 Championship]

...nobody does want to be the first guy in the pool, but even if a small number of say 5 guys all in the same general region race their Formula 3 cars at an SCCA event it's performance would certainly get noticed, and the people whom witness would be more akin to acquiring one for themselves.

There is a whack of 15 cars advertised in the Classifieds section with a 16th coming online now. As Dave pointed out, let's say nothing with a Series does happen, having an incredible Formula 3 car as a track day car isn't a bad thing at all, and never a bad driving experience.

[Charles Warner]

but even if a small number of say 5 guys all in the same general region race their Formula 3 cars at an SCCA event it's performance would certainly get noticed

I think you place way too much emphasis on the performance of the cars and where/how they stack up against other formulae. Does not matter a whit. The only comparison is against other cars in your series/class. You are using a sportsman's/amateur's mindset yet considering a professional level critter. Anyone who gets into this realm with be just that - professional - and will (should) have a bunch of money to throw away. And they could care less whether the F3 is faster or slower than an Atlantic or whether the engine costs are higher or lower. At the top of the food chain the costs are fixed and high and anyone getting in, and staying in, will know this up front and accept it. The want-ads are littered with cars that were bought for the Atlantic series and the owners got the shock of reality when they tried to be competitive. That's the reality of this type of sandbox. If the Mazda series annual cost is 400k then there's your market. To attract the amateur with low costs for older cars is not the way to go unless you are trying to fill the field with backmarkers.

I would dearly love to see a successful F3 series in the North American market. However, I was at the F3 race in Memphis where 5 cars started. What is different now?

[Top]

I guess I fall into the category of a "track day F3 owner" at least for now. I was a TT driver for a number of years and may go back to racing in some form in the future. If the F3 series gets going it may be there, otherwise ill likely homologate the car into FS and run there. For the time being I have commitments that don't allow me to travel more than an hour away from home. For now I will be happy if I can just get the Dallara out on a track day or two a year -- which isn't looking promising at the moment.

I certainly am watching all the F3 threads with interest.