The "I hate RA" thread... ;^)

[Stan Clayton]

This thread is for all y'all who want to complain about Road America's management.

[LanceKTM950]

If the SCCA scheduled a race there and no one showed up, would the SCCA have a clue as to why that would happen?

Lance

[mmi16]

Everyone cried about Heartland Park and cheered about RA being selected.

Be careful what you ask for!

[kea]

Heartland Park
Road America
Maybe we need to look at the common denominator.

[TimW]

I don't recall everyone being terribly joyful about Michelle Trueman either.

[Charles Warner]

This thread is for all y'all who want to complain about Road America's management.

OK, Stan. Fess up. What happened?

[Wren]

OK, Stan. Fess up. What happened?

I don't think anything happened, people were just hijacking his runoffs rumors thread to complain about RA.

I have never had a problem there. I like the track, I like the area and the food there is some of the best track food I have ever had. I have also found the people in the area to be some of the nicest I have ever met.

I love the weather during the June Sprints (usually, minus the rain that always hits the FB race).

I always look forward to going to RA.

[Stan Clayton]

I don't think anything happened, people were just hijacking his runoffs rumors thread to complain about RA.

Yup, that's it...thanks Wren.

PS - I really like RA.

[mmi16]

Track itself is fine - I just feel like I am being gouged $$$$$$$.

[John Nesbitt]

Keep in mind the Runoffs financial model. The track pays SCCA a fee for the privilege of hosting the event. I don't know the exact number; it's a closely-held business secret. But it cannot be small. The track then turns around and tries to recover its money from the entrants (paddock spaces, gas, test days, etc.).

Any rational business will try to maximize income. But remember that the track starts the event in the hole for a fair-sized chunk of change.

[Charles Warner]

You mean $25 just to have a pit vehicle?

[flat tappet]

Track itself is fine - I just feel like I am being gouged $$$$$$$.

Go to LRP next weekend for the NARRC.You will be lucky to even get hot water.I'm not talking a shower, here.....just washing your hands! The rest rooms were purchased from California after the Japanese were interned in WWII. For what they charge all summer long for a ticket to the pro events.......and the approx. $20000 a day for SCCA, could we at least be able to shave in comfort.

Even prep school had some hot water.........LOL.

[Hardingfv32]

Keep in mind the Runoffs financial model. The track pays SCCA a fee for the privilege of hosting the event.

This the heart of the issue. Why is it that the membership has no visibility about the Runoff track contract?

Why is Club Racing's Runoffs responsible for funding the club's administration? An event's financial responsibility should be limited to that event.

Both the SFR and Chicago region put on 300 entrant events without any drama. It is time to get the SCCA administration out of the job of running the Runoffs. If you think the car count is to high then split the event into two dates/locations... or just wait a few years until the car count falls enough.

Brian

[CDS]

Mid Ohio charged me $700 to park my trailer
Topeka upped it to $1000
Road America is $1500

I like the track and area but you really pay for it.

[KenT]

Was it the S2 forum or the DSR forum where I heard the Runoffs is heading west for its new location? Stan? Miller, maybe? What other track has the facilities? Of course, if they split it up a bit so its two groups, most tracks may work.

[Charles Warner]

Mid Ohio charged me $700 to park my trailer
Topeka upped it to $1000
Road America is $1500

I assume these charges only apply to the Runoffs. Still, not appropriate in the least.

[Neil_Roberts]

Sorry for not playing along. While traveling all over with the Indycar circus in the early '90s, it was hard not to see big differences in the fans at the various tracks. The least informed fans were always at Long Beach, along with the most cosmetic surgery and Spandex. Indy was 97% corn-fed Hoosiers. However, fans at Road America knew every name, every car number, every sponsor, all of the rumors about next year, trap speeds, and why driver X was struggling with damper tuning. RA fans were by far the most knowledgeable.

[Jim Gustafson]

2010 vintage race. I suffered a freak crack in the oil pan on my F-Atlantic. No warning, no smoke, oiled down the track and ruined a very expensive engine. George Brugginthies flies up on his scooter, and rips me a new ass----. I got a bill for 80 bags of oil dry, ($600.00) and was told if I didn't pay up, I would never be allowed to race at Road America again. That's TEN, eighty pound bags per quart of oil. At the time, I had been a paying customer, and a participant for 44 years.

Jim Gustafson

[kea]

Charles,
You may have forgotten, but the charging of a fee for a pit vehicle started at the Road Atlanta Run-Offs (after the year when pit vehicles were found to be "out of control" and had caused some damage). It was the only way to know who was responsible for what vehicle. I think the fee then was still $25.00.

[FV07]

2010 vintage race. I suffered a freak crack in the oil pan on my F-Atlantic. No warning, no smoke, oiled down the track and ruined a very expensive engine. George Brugginthies flies up on his scooter, and rips me a new ass----. I got a bill for 80 bags of oil dry, ($600.00) and was told if I didn't pay up, I would never be allowed to race at Road America again. That's TEN, eighty pound bags per quart of oil. At the time, I had been a paying customer, and a participant for 44 years.

Jim Gustafson

Jim, inquiring minds want to know; so how did that discussion about the oil dry go??

Jim A.

[Purple Frog]

One must understand the economies of putting on a race weekend. After about 7 years of being within shouting distance of those who do put on race weekends, i have gained a bit of knowledge.

Top shelf tracks have told their investors that they must take in $20,000 to $30,000 per day of operation. That sounds stiff, but you must calculate how many days a track in the upper latitudes can actually operate. Tracks have expenses. Garbage collection and disposal fees being significant. 7 x 24 security. Dreaded insurance. Just mowing a few thousand acres every week or so has its cost. Paving. $$$ Restroom cleaning. Port-o-lets. Red and yellow paint for the curbing. Corner workers if the renter does not provide them. You get the idea.

Obviously a track like Roebling Road has less overhead than Watkins Glen.

Then, the sanctioning body has its expenses, even if a "volunteer club". Insurance. Lunches for workers. Trophies.

The Runons has its own set of added expenses. At least in the past, Denver/Topeka made certain "demands" in their bid packages to the tracks. e.g. a fleet of rental cars for the staff. Build a large tech shed. Plus the Runons involves a bunch of national staff which require plane tickets, hotel rooms, meals, etc. And the Runons presents more expensive throphies/jackets etc.

All that said, it is easy to get to $40,000 - $50,000+ per day for a headline event. And we haven't figured in any PR expenses.

Now divide those daily expenses by the number of entrants/vendors per day. A sponsor can help take a bit off the top. Unfortunately, large sponsors are not growing on trees.

As Bill says, "It's Arithmetic."

[KenT]

http://forum.calclub.com/index.php?showtopic=4166

[Wren]

http://forum.calclub.com/index.php?showtopic=4166

They will regret that.

[Purple Frog]

Oh yeah! For 6 years i have listened to NE & CenDiv guys complain about traveling to Road Atlanta, must less Barber.

I propose a charter train with 20 lounge cars. We all load our rigs on flat bed rail cars, climb in the front of the train and party our way west.

[KenT]

I propose a charter train with 20 lounge cars. We all load our rigs on flat bed rail cars, climb in the front of the train and party our way west. [/COLOR]

Now that is the kind of "out of the box" thinking that this country, I mean, club needs. They can charter that wine train out of Sonoma. Seems like a perfect fit.

[Rick Kirchner]

They will regret that.

How so? Which "They"?

They are correct in that those two facilities - Sears Point and Miller - are probably the only ones that could hold the event out west.

Laguna would simply be too much of a pain in the a$$, between the sound, and the access, and the paddock,and the hotel prices - then again, if the entry goes down because of the west coast location, maybe not so much.......

The CS roval has it all, but like most rovals, it's got too much of the "mickey mouse" factor.

There is a wild card - Willow Springs. The weather is great this time of year, but hot for most of you - mid-90's this week. The track - bring big attachments - and play nice - because going off will not be kind to the chassis. It has a TON of auxiliary tracks with their own paddocks and parking, and there's so much undeveloped space that would only need grading and gravel. Getting from those places involves a lot of narrow hilly two lane though. The facilities suck, and the family that runs the joint is renowned for putting the minimum amount of effort in the place - despite it being active something like 300 days a year.

Like RA and Laguna - we all put up with it because it represents one of the last un-emasculated places of speed.

I think Keith's idea of Austin as a decent alternative. It ends up being a 2-3 day tow for just about everybody - maybe a bit farther for the far northeast and northwest guys.

Then again, I'm never going to the runons to race, so my opinion doesn't matter.

[Wren]

How so? Which "They"?

Record low attendance. The BOD.

Someone needs to break out the SCCA membership distribution chart again.

[Stan Clayton]

Someone needs to break out the SCCA membership distribution chart again.

You must mean this one. The number below each track is the average highway driving distance to that track from the notional center of the other Divisions. All y'all feel free to share this with your respective BoD members...

[dc]

Stan, I don't know of anyone who "hates" Road America. I think most people that I have talked to (especially in the Central Division), are getting tired of getting corn-holed by the track for the Sprints and Runoffs. The ancillary charges for parking, pit vehicles, camping, paddock spaces and other "fees" are beyond ridiculous.

Personally, I think that the RA experience has run it's course for the SCCA Club membership.

[Daryl DeArman]

Stan,

Is that map a population density map or a SCCA membership density map? Or are we making the assumption that the SCCA membership and the population density are reasonably proportional?

Does a "heat map" exist that shows the total number of SCCA National License holders?

[Rick Kirchner]

that distribution chart only has significance in this discussion if the density represents national race entries (although I suspect it's close - but some regions, like San Diego, are Solo only)

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, I don't know of anyone who "hates" Road America.

Doug, please note 'winky face' in the title...

Stan,

Is that map a population density map or a SCCA membership density map? Or are we making the assumption that the SCCA membership and the population density are reasonably proportional?

Does a "heat map" exist that shows the total number of SCCA National License holders?

Yes, yes, and I don't know.

[TimW]

You must mean this one. The number below each track is the average highway driving distance to that track from the notional center of the other Divisions. All y'all feel free to share this with your respective BoD members...

So, Indy it is!

[Stan Clayton]

So, Indy it is!

Yeah, looking at the map it is obvious that Indy would work fine. As would VIR. Of course, Mid-O is a safe bet, but IMO won't happen so long as NASA has the prime mid-Sep date. Nobody wants to race in the snow or freezing rain.

Road America, OTOH, is not only out on the western edge of how far east coast drivers want to travel, but suffers too from the need to drive through Chicago when driving from the east. Moreover, after 4 years easterners are tired of RA and it shows in their attitudes. Heartland Park is easy to get to, but for east coasters it might as well be in Siberia.

I really should update the map to reflect Austin, but am too lazy right now. In any case, it would probably work fine for a 3-year stint. After that easterners will complain about how far it is to drive there.

Indy would be near-ideal for many reasons...

- easy access to lots of SCCA members
- their late summer/early fall schedule is open
- no "home field" advantage
- world-class facility in every sense of the word

Might not be interested, though...and even if it is the price tag will make RA look a bargain.

So for maximum happiness and minimum blowback, MO and VIR appear to be front runners. Road Atlanta and Daytona are outside players that have the whole package, especially for a late October date.

As a Left Coaster, once I have to drive past Denver it really doesn't make any difference to my decision. They're all a helluva long ways away. Never stopped me before, though...

[CSHAW]

Stan,

Next year this will start mattering to me more as I should have several "dogs in the hunt". Removing my own self serving issues concerning convenience, it makes the most sense to have the Nationals centrally located as possible as they are to represent the whole country.

That said, I would also be a proponent of splitting it up so that formula and sports racers have a few days of racing by themselves and the OEM based cars had a few days of racing by themselves with a practice day before the first group and one in between for the next group. the day in between would also be used to move in and out. this would eliminate the need for everyone to stay the whole time. (that is if participant cost are of concern)

Although Road America has a great deal of prestige and history, I don't think that should carry the priority value that it seems to now.

Corey
SCT Sports Cars

[Stan Clayton]

Hey Corey, I understand your points and suggestions, but SCCA being SCCA (not just corporate, but the members, too) there is a lot of history goes into this triennial decision.

Heartland Park Topeka is about as close to centrally located as one can get, but the members just about revolted about having it there, so that criteria for choosing a location is now discredited.

Likewise, splitting the Runoffs has a long discussion history. Short version? It's dead in the water. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

Since splitting the Runoffs and having them out West are out of consideration, that leaves changing the business model to try to make the members happier. Up to now (at least for the past decade or three), tracks have bid for the rights, then been left to their own devices to recoup their costs...hence member dissatisfaction with being dinged for dollars for every little thing.

The potentially better model, and one I am told is under active BoD consideration, is to put out RFQs to straight-up rent the track. That way the track gets its price per day, and the pressure is off for it to act like a crack hooker on payday.

Of course, that leaves it to SCCA to recoup what it pays the track. And as is says in the good book, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Anyway, once thing is certain...the members are ready to move on from RA. Where we end up nobody really knows yet, but my money is on VIR.

How's that for sticking my neck out!?

[Jnovak]

I propose a charter train with 20 lounge cars. We all load our rigs on flat bed rail cars, climb in the front of the train and party our way west.

[/color]

Another brilliant Idea from the Purple One.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Jnovak]

I actually remember the days when the Runoffs went from Atlanta to Riverside every other year. I liked it though the one year I won the cendiv C sedan championship I did not have the $$ to go to Riverside.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Peter Olivola]

The rotation was Daytona to Riverside. When it got to Atlanta it stopped moving every year.

I actually remember the days when the Runoffs went from Atlanta to Riverside every other year. I liked it though the one year I won the cendiv C sedan championship I did not have the $$ to go to Riverside.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[TimW]

Yeah, looking at the map it is obvious that Indy would work fine.

<clip>

Indy would be near-ideal for many reasons...

- easy access to lots of SCCA members
- their late summer/early fall schedule is open
- no "home field" advantage
- world-class facility in every sense of the word

Might not be interested, though...and even if it is the price tag will make RA look a bargain.

On the upside, 2 weeks in Indy and you can't complain about the length of the event: Can always take comfort in not spending the 60 days of May there. Stretch the schedule back to 7 days, top 18 classes to keep single class run groups, no testing and no in season amateur events would be how it'd be done if I were Bernie

I can only imagine what a garage rental would cost. But between 24 F1 garages and ~100 Gasoline Alley garages charging simply the rates paid now would add up fast. And, not to mention the FIA already has a tech garage in place and IRL has one in Gasoline Alley.