Side protection

[blackhole]

Here are some pictures of the side protection from our Blackhole.

The bottom picture is of my custom seat that we made. One of the best upgrades we made to our car for comfort and safety!

[fvhopeful]

Nice work Kevin

my next frame will be beefed up like that for sure and also a bead seat will be done

thanks for sharing

Cheers

Desmond

[hojof1]

hi kev, what do you have betwen the body work and the frame bars?

kevlar, aluminum???

[Rolling Stone]

In retro spect,I wish I had,had a seat like that..no padding was the problem for my back..GET a well Padded formed seat guys!!!!

[blackhole]

In the Fibreglass is Kevlar and the bottom part is aircraft aluminum.

[AVR_Shane]

Kevin, do you know what kind of weight was added from the aluminum panels and kevlar?

Also, what is the thickness of the aluminum?

[hojof1]

In addition to the weight Kev, could you also share the cost to do that in material if you did that yourself would be beneficial as well.

Thanks

[Mark Filip]

Before everyone just starts throwing in side panels something should get tested. You could make it worse. Side panels can bend, tear or shatter and potentially creating more harm than safely. I'm only saying this because someone is going to toss in home depot diamond plate and call it a day. Side impact panels are more complicated than most people realize the simple mind set of anything is better than nothing could end up bad.

Just my opion. My D13 was easy to add bars because there was plenty of room but my current car also has large opening like many others. I have been thinking about this a lot even before the resent crash.

Either way side impacts on FVs is a tough one

[G.B.]

I hate to be a spoiler here, but the side panels on Kevin's car are the original panels that came with the car. I recognise the colour on the inside. A previous owner (Kelly McFadden) ran it in a maroon colour and if you look carefully the right front panel has been repaired, its black.

Incidentally, this car was purpose built for the now-defunct Canadian FV1600 series, Formula First, which had a minimum weight of 1125lbs, the purpose built cars were more robust as weight wasn't an issue. They also had disc brakes, to make sure they could stop!

Guy.

[blackhole]

We never once implied that we were the people that made this side protection.

This post was merely here to show what could be done to improve SAFETY (do with it what you like).

And yes this car was made for Formula First with disk brakes. I raced for 2 years and weighed in at 1130lbs and had no problem stopping the car with drum brakes.

As far as the price and weight to do this work it would all depend on the car you have!


Besides, I don't think you can put price on your safety. We all had to buy HANS devices to stay with the rules and we didn't loose any entries! (I know this is what some people are worried about)



People are always worried about costs. Which I can understand!
No one has an issue buying these items though.

Helmet paint job $1000-$1200
Camera $200-$500
Data Acquisition $1000-$2000
Intake Manifold $600-$1000

I would like very much to talk about a weight increase to improve safety at our next meeting!

Thanks

[fvhopeful]

Kevin
Thank you for your post and pictures .
That is what I was looking for ideas on how to
Prevent future incidents like I just went thru
We all accept some danger in the sport we love so much
Fortunately I was lucky having measured and surveying how
Far Franks car came into mine I don't know how I made it out of the car.
I would be interested in any ideas as I undertake building another car

Cheers

Desmond

[blackhole]

Kevin, do you know what kind of weight was added from the aluminum panels and kevlar?

Also, what is the thickness of the aluminum?

Shane the panels are about 1.5mm thick.

[AVR_Shane]

For everyone's interest, a quick calculation has 1m x 0.5m x 1.5mm thick panel aluminum to weigh around 4.57lb. So if your dimensions require a 0.5m^2 area per side, you are looking at around 9.15lb added total. Easy calculation if it's a different area than that.

Kevlar would be a little more difficult to measure as the layers/weave can be different between manufacturers, but I would guess that skinning the body on both sides of the car would add around 5lbs.

[Mark Filip]

Does the weight really matter? Can someone calculate how easy it is to puncture? I bet I could take a 25lbs dead blow and cave that in 5" and make your body 5" narrower. Now take a 830 lb car at say 40 mph.

[karmaboy]

Kevlar has great puncture resistance...great for keeping a stray trailing arm from spearing you (Sam Mandia's injury) but is not much good for a blunt impact. Aluminum, assuming its properly fastened to the frame has great blunt impact resistance (Des's incident)...but easy to puncture.
I would assume a combination of both is a more ideal solution.
Ed Womer suggested (in my application), adding 1" flat bars between the cage tubes. This is to maximize my interior elbow room and sidesteps the requirements for specific tubing (size and type) as per the SCCA. Its real goal is to prevent the kevlar (3 layers in my case) from collapsing into the cockpit.
Not suggesting this for everyone...just saying it seems to be an option in my case.

[Rolling Stone]

Marc,

Thats what we are all trying to figure out,you can only do your best and learn from others.I HIT Desmond in a fluke accident at approx 80kmh going around a right hand corner in a T-bone situation,I as well as he cannot believe he walked away unscathed as he was the one in the more precarious and dangerous position.Yet I was the one who suffered a fractured spine and broken left ankle.Luck does play a part too,after thinking about the crash i realise my habit of resting my left foot on the footrest so as not to rest it on the clutch caused my breaks.My body moved forward in a split second,but my left foot did not hence the shock wave up my left side fractured my ankle and spine.In other words my immovable left foot took all the force,we all know to take our hands off the steering wheel in an impeding collision,my thoughts are take your hands AND left foot off the footrest if you have time and see the accident coming.......I did not have that luxury as it all happened in a split second with Desmonds car coming across the track as i arrived at that spot. AND I will say it again..put on as much body protection as you can,Im glad i did otherwise i would be nursing a broken left kneecap too,hitting rubber tires etc is a lot different to hitting an immovable object....it HURTSAND EVERY PART OF YOU GETS BANGED really hard.

[derminator]

Gentleman. I am working on a solution that may work. Our chemist has come up with a formulation of foam and my thought is to use all three combinations to build better sign protection. First we are going to have aluminum then we will apply a layer of foam about 1.5" thick to the aluminum then we will apply a layer of kevlar fabric to the out side of the foam. Finally we will apply a layer of kevlar to the body work. Although is may seem like overkill think about this the body work is only held on by dzus fasteners and looking at Des's car it did absorb some of the impact but as soon a the body and the dzus fasteners broke game over. We are going to try this but installation will be key to the system. We have access to tensile strength testing equipment so we will get some data on the foam. What I am trying to achieve is a system that will absorb the impact and lessen the harm done to the driver compartment. We are also looking at a rear absorbing foam and a nose cone foam so we can protect the brake and clutch masters but with steel tubing in the nose area. This will not be expensive to do but should help. All done for less then the cost of a helmet paint job.

[hojof1]

seems like kevlar is applied to the fibreglass body, if you have aluminium panels attached to your frame, would it be better to add kevlar to the aluminium panels or to the inner side of the body work.

if the answer is to the aluminium panels because its fixed, and ridgid and not going anywhere, which side inner or outer.

to me sandwhiching the aluminum with kevlar seems like a good idea. but i have nothing to back that up

[derminator]

By creating layers you absorb more energy and our engineer seems this would the best way to achieve the energy asborbtion given the construction we have in these cars.

[racerdan]

I just want to make sure that everyone is aware of the following rule before you start over doing things. Is the problem lack of side intrusion or a car with a spear hitting you?

refer to your casc f1200 rules, section 3 subsection Xi)

xi) No structure, item or component (including battery) other than bodywork, shall
protrude further than 254.00 mm from the lower axle beam tube. Any item
protruding further than 203.20 mm must include a vertical safety plate. This plate
must be constructed of no less than 1.53 mm 6061-T-6 aluminum or no less than
16 gauge steel. The plate shall have a minimum frontal surface area of 0.027 m²,
and shall have a height of not less than 101.60 mm and a width of not less than
152.40 mm. The plate may have no more than 12.70 mm curvature or deflection
from the horizontal or vertical plane, and shall be attached to the chassis (frame)
at all four corners. The lower braces shall not exceed a 15-degree upward angle
when measured from the horizontal plane of the lower frame tubes.

I would suggest that before you all start to try and engineer a car that can stop a spear that you may want to verify that all the cars in the class are in compliance with this rule. I have personally seen a few cars that do not seem to meet this rule and if that is what drives into the side of you it will go through almost any side intrusion that you can design short of wide side pods.

Adding a lot of weight to the cars in the form of side intrusion may deflect a certain amount of intrusion but if not engineered correctly it is just additional dead weight. Please remember that any increase in weight also increases the Kinetic energy of the vehicle by a proportional amount, meaning it will take longer to stop, have more crushing power during a crash to name but a few of the influences.

I agree that some FV or FV1200 cars could use better side protection, but if not thought out and implemented correctly can be dangerous.

Race safe.

Dan Purdy

[S Lathrop]

I have been following this discussion and have a few observations.

In the picture of the car above, I would suggest that you spend more time thinking about where the trailing arm might go when the rod end fails. That type of accident is as probable as a side penetration of another car.

Second, Kevlar is great stuff. But you need to think of it in the same thickness as you would for aluminum for protection. 1 layer of kevlar gives the penetration protection of .008 in(.02mm) aluminum. Indy cars use .125in (.3 mm) thick shell surrounding the driver. I think that .2mm would be adequate or .060 aluminum. Backing that up with a foam core to distribute the load to the frame and give an energy absorbing medium would also be a good idea.

My experience with the close to 100 FVs I have put out is that the trailing arm needs a lot of attention. You also should think about the steering mechanism as well.

[hojof1]

now this is some interesting stuff, on all accounts.
thanks for posting.

[Mark Filip]

Great post Dan and Steve

[porkchop]

Glad that side impact protection has been brought to the forefront of attention in our class.. it's definitely needed. Thanks for sharing Kevin!

Also, anyone looking to have a beadseat made may want to contact Mr. Bill Vallis at VMS.. We have made a few now with great success!

Daniel

[blackhole]

Glad that side impact protection has been brought to the forefront of attention in our class.. it's definitely needed. Thanks for sharing Kevin!

Also, anyone looking to have a beadseat made may want to contact Mr. Bill Vallis at VMS.. We have made a few now with great success!

Daniel

Can I get one in pink?

Sorry couldn't resist!!!

[Rolling Stone]

Pink is no good..cos when you go thro what Des and I just did,the brown stain really shows!!!!

[porkchop]

Can I get one in pink?

Sorry couldn't resist!!!

HAR HAR HAR.

I'm pretty sure we can!.. At the moment we only have "faster traffic approaching" blue and "black".

[hojof1]

had a chance to look at my side protection as it was the first time i saw the car since BARC Aug weekend.

i have minimum spec thickness aluminium, (my batteries were dead in my gauge) both could be upgraded!

what i do like is the coverage area, it goes from the main hoop all the way to the front hoop. and the height goes from the bottom frame rail to the top rail, which when i'm in the car goes above my shoulders and the width covers all the way down to my upper legs.

What i also liked was the intermediate frame bars in this area of the protoform which limits the exposed bare surface area which should limit the size of intrusion possible and also the shear stregth or penetration stregth of the aluminium.

To increase this further a reasonable addition to this setup would be to layer kevlar on the inner side of the bodywork, which would be easy to do and be cost feasible or add some more bars to fill the gaps.

ultimate solution, probably not, but what is?

better than minimum standard, probably yes.

[hojof1]

one of the things we looked at when we had the BRD was to to build and weld together some sort of deflective shroud around the pick up for the trailing arm near the drivers compartment.

if it was designed correctly upon breakage the arm would hit the shroud and deflect outward preventing it from impacting the car. almost like a cup or a hat.

never got to it as we sold the car.

[brownslane]

I would suggest that a simple application of a sheet of 6061 T-6 bonded and riveted to the outside (typically) of the cockpit tubes would go a great way to providing a significant layer of protection. Highly recommended.

I had a chance to look at Spencer Todd's car after "the big one" and his side panels (alloy) stood up well and appear to have deflected a couple of significant impacts. I am sure they helped keep him (relatively) unhurt. It must have been a heck of a shunt!

In terms of cost, I would suggest that installation of these panels could be accomplished for a few hundred dollars. I have done many of these installations and have tested them once! Highly recommended. If you are considering the kevlar route, remember specific resins are required, vacuum bagging is recommended, and they will still need to be bonded/riveted for best result. The difference in weight between carbon/kevlar and aluminum in this application is less than a pound a side, will provide similar yields, and will cost in the order of three to four times. Don't think that a properly Bonding kevlar panels into existing body panels requires specific knowledge of bonding...otherwise the new layers will just delaminate if impacted; I have seen that a few times as well

For me, my cars all have welded floor pans and bonded/riveted alloy side skins. I would not drive a car where my safety is not maximized....if a few ounces are that important, then have a great, greasy breakfast and you'll lose that weight an hour later !
Best,

[hojof1]

Tom,

you clearly know your stuff.

in your opinion if you had both aluminium and kevlar panels. would it be best to have the kevalr bonded to the body work or is there any gain to bonding it to the aluminium panel which is attached to the actual frame? and if so which side would you put the kevlar on, inner or outer side of aluminium?

thanks,

[karmaboy]

Andrew...just jumping in here...
I use to have a composite prototyping business...so I think I know my way around the stuff. I think kevlar wouldn't bond very well to aluminum and would expect it to delaminate fairly easily on impact. The best thing is to laminate it to the bodywork...but like others have said, its not like fiberglass. You need to ensure the resin is appropriate (laminating resin) and ideally vacuum bagged to the body (which is harder than it looks). Temperature is a factor in the cure and needs to be carefully considered.
Also...kevlar doesn't cut easily (which is the point of the material)...I have a pair of shears that cost me $200.
Let me know if you have any questions...

Kevin

[brownslane]

already replied, but I guess I "fat fingered" the send key

Absolutely right, Kevin. You cannot use polyesters with Kevlar at all. I use a special interim bonding agent to use with aluminum.

I would install the alloy panels on the outside of the tubes. This way the loads are evenly shared across the whole panel (and rivets) I also always bond safety skins with a two-part urethane. Great stuff, used in auto industry for bonding door skins etc. 3M makes a good adhesive part number 85000. I buy it by the case these days; let me know if you need some and I will sell at my cost.

If I were to lay up Kevlar weave in these panels I would bond to the inside of the skins and use the proper adhesives, then I would sandwich the kevlar between the 6061 and the frame tubes, bonding with the urethane. This will give you the best yield.

And rivets are not all the same. I use only aircraft grade (like avdel or cherrymax, if you can get them). I also always install my rivets dipped in a two-part epoxy. Adds more strength.

Recently I built new panels for a Radical I am rebuilding I used a double layer alupanel construction. This material is two skins of 5052 bonded to a centre layer of urethane...light weight, easy to work with hand tools and provides two bonded skins. The greater cross section provides an extra measure of safety. You have to rivet through the outer layer using special stepped washers (tinnermans) that are epoxied to the inner skin....a little more work, but really strong. The panels also come in a whole buncha colours if you want a pink (or purple) panel!!

[Tom Irwin]

Vinyl Ester resin works with Kevlar.
I've used it for FF side pods

[hojof1]

thanks guys,
i think this is useful for everyone and I could see myself starting a project like this and feeling confident in its effect.