Renesis transplant into Std FM?

[Lracer28]

Just wondering how difficult it would be to put a fuel injected renesis engine into a standard FM with the normal 13B?? Does it bolt right up or is there a bunch of custom work involved?
Thanks guys!

[Stan Clayton]

IIRC Star Mazda converted a standard FM to a 4-port Renesis several years ago as part of a "what-do-you-think" project aimed at testing the membership waters about a mass conversion. As I recall the conversion itself was straight forward, though the members voted it down. Moses might have more info.

[Ted Idlof]

Yep that's right Stan. I remember Gary R pitching this idea to anyone who would listen in 04. And I happen to know the guy who bought that conversion. I think I've got some pictures somewhere. Not much outward change; a small bump on the engine cowl, but otherwise it looked the same IIRC. I think there was only one conversion actually built. Engine probably didn't bolt right up and it did have some other teething problems making it difficult for the mechanically challenged owner to keep fixing things.

The cost of the conversion was supposed to be close to a 13B rebuild cost, but the estimated cost kept climbing as the project developed and that was probably the biggest reason it was not accepted. Of course the other thing is trying to equalize the 2 in terms of performance. No easy way to do that and race car drivers are like the family dog; they like routine and known quantities and don't like change if it can be avoided.

The problem with the Renesis is that Mazda has stopped making it too, so the life of that motor is also finite.

Moses is working with all the players and stakeholders who can make an engine transition work. Pretty sure they are exploring all possible options and weighing the trade-offs. But as you can easily guess, it will happen since 13B parts are limited.

Mo knows all too well that many of us are waiting with baited breath for when the best solution will be finalized and what it will look like in terms of cost. He says he is inundated with calls and EM, so let's all stand back and let him work. He will be getting back to us as soon as he can; that's an indisputable fact since he has obviously shown his dedication to us and this car over and over. Not to belabor the point, but no one wants to keep this car alive and kicking more than he does.

[dalz]

I BELIEVE(?)....The FM Renesis is SCCA legal, with added weight and a significant inlet restriction. If you were a big guy who couldn't get to the weight limit, it would possibly be a viable alternative. But as Ted said, there are very few (one or two) in existance.

I'm waiting for the sports racer realignment to shake out, and perhaps an unrestricted Renesis FM would be an interesting platform for the SR2 class.

[Lracer28]

Yep that's right Stan. I remember Gary R pitching this idea to anyone who would listen in 04. And I happen to know the guy who bought that conversion. I think I've got some pictures somewhere. Not much outward change; a small bump on the engine cowl, but otherwise it looked the same IIRC. I think there was only one conversion actually built. Engine probably didn't bolt right up and it did have some other teething problems making it difficult for the mechanically challenged owner to keep fixing things.

The cost of the conversion was supposed to be close to a 13B rebuild cost, but the estimated cost kept climbing as the project developed and that was probably the biggest reason it was not accepted. Of course the other thing is trying to equalize the 2 in terms of performance. No easy way to do that and race car drivers are like the family dog; they like routine and known quantities and don't like change if it can be avoided.

The problem with the Renesis is that Mazda has stopped making it too, so the life of that motor is also finite.

Moses is working with all the players and stakeholders who can make an engine transition work. Pretty sure they are exploring all possible options and weighing the trade-offs. But as you can easily guess, it will happen since 13B parts are limited.

Mo knows all too well that many of us are waiting with baited breath for when the best solution will be finalized and what it will look like in terms of cost. He says he is inundated with calls and EM, so let's all stand back and let him work. He will be getting back to us as soon as he can; that's an indisputable fact since he has obviously shown his dedication to us and this car over and over. Not to belabor the point, but no one wants to keep this car alive and kicking more than he does.

Thank you very much for all of your input guys!! I really appreciate it! I ask mainly because I want more power...and I also want fuel injection. Obviously if I do anything like this, it wont be legal, but that doesnt matter to me at this point

[Stan Clayton]

I BELIEVE(?)....The FM Renesis is SCCA legal, with added weight and a significant inlet restriction. If you were a big guy who couldn't get to the weight limit, it would possibly be a viable alternative. But as Ted said, there are very few (one or two) in existance.

I'm waiting for the sports racer realignment to shake out, and perhaps an unrestricted Renesis FM would be an interesting platform for the SR2 class.

Good catch! The 4-port Renesis IS permitted in FM, albeit with a 44mm plate restrictor and 50 more pounds. Call Daryl Drummond on (541) 582-1786 to discuss that engine option. I'm confident he can tell you all about it.

[Lracer28]

Good catch! The 4-port Renesis IS permitted in FM, albeit with a 44mm plate restrictor and 50 more pounds. Call Daryl Drummond on (541) 582-1786 to discuss that engine option. I'm confident he can tell you all about it.

Thanks man, will do!

[Dave Cutchins]

[quote=Ted Idlof;359475]Yep that's right Stan. I remember Gary R pitching this idea to anyone who would listen in 04. And I happen to know the guy who bought that conversion. I think I've got some pictures somewhere. Not much outward change; a small bump on the engine cowl, but otherwise it looked the same IIRC. I think there was only one conversion actually built................


I bought the car from the original owner in 2009 with the 4-Port installed. It now has a 2009 6-Port Renesis and produces 224hp @ the wheels. It has dual homologation but is currently classed as FS. I run it at hillclimbs, time trials and an occasional autocross.

The only major mod when I removed the 4-Port and installed the stock 6-Port was removal of the auxillary port valve motor and a slight modification to the header due to the redesign of the 2009 oil pan.

[Lracer28]

[quote=Dave Cutchins;359602]

Yep that's right Stan. I remember Gary R pitching this idea to anyone who would listen in 04. And I happen to know the guy who bought that conversion. I think I've got some pictures somewhere. Not much outward change; a small bump on the engine cowl, but otherwise it looked the same IIRC. I think there was only one conversion actually built................


I bought the car from the original owner in 2009 with the 4-Port installed. It now has a 2009 6-Port Renesis and produces 224hp @ the wheels. It has dual homologation but is currently classed as FS. I run it at hillclimbs, time trials and an occasional autocross.

The only major mod when I removed the 4-Port and installed the stock 6-Port was removal of the auxillary port valve motor and a slight modification to the header due to the redesign of the 2009 oil pan.

That is exactly what I want to do with mine if I end up keeping it!! thank you for the pics!

[Lracer28]

How does the FM trans like the extra horsepower/torque?? I want to do hillclimbs with mine also!

[Dave Cutchins]

How does the FM trans like the extra horsepower/torque?? I want to do hillclimbs with mine also!

My trans has MK5 internals and a short non-stock gear stack and seems to handle the power and torque (224hp/164ft lbs) with zero problems.

As far as the original fitment mods, it looks like STAR fabricated new motor mounts, a header to accomodate the side port exhaust (3 tubes) of the Renesis engine and installed a MOTEC M4 engine management system.

Other than the MOTEC system, a Renesis transplant is not all that complicated or expensive. A Mega Squirt system would be a cost effective alternate engine management system.

I did add cooling fans to both radiators because of the type of racing I do.

[Lracer28]

My trans has MK5 internals and a short non-stock gear stack and seems to handle the power and torque (224hp/164ft lbs) with zero problems.

As far as the original fitment mods, it looks like STAR fabricated new motor mounts, a header to accomodate the side port exhaust (3 tubes) of the Renesis engine and installed a MOTEC M4 engine management system.

Other than the MOTEC system, a Renesis transplant is not all that complicated or expensive. A Mega Squirt system would be a cost effective alternate engine management system.

I did add cooling fans to both radiators because of the type of racing I do.

Very cool, I am seriously considering this and very well may have some questions for you along the way! Thanks Dave!

[Ted Idlof]

Increasing HP puts strain elsewhere.

My trans has MK5 internals ....

Dave, do you still have the same FM diff, clutch and other power transmitting parts?

One of the difficulties of adding more HP and MK5 gears to the std car is other parts of the system can't handle the power. It's my understanding that these parts were marginal for even the stock 185 HP 13B.

Back in '06 or so WorldSpeed had a design to address the engine transition and this problem as well. But unlike the Star idea, it did include an FTR box. But that's as much as I know. Maybe Scotty from Taylor can chime in on this. BTW, IMHO, both the WS and Star Renesis ideas were mostly ahead of their time.

Dave, I'm glad you've had no problems. Hopefully that will continue since you're hill climbs, auto-x and such probably put less time on the car than club racing. OTOH, that type of racing is different from the car's orignial mission so it may be more stress on some parts and less on others. Something to consider.

But maybe I'm talking out of school here if you have been in touch with Todd Cook. For those who don't know, Todd was one of the Russell car's original mechanics/designers in the early 80's and does hill climbs as well. He is the authority on this issue.

[Purple Frog]

posted today on SCCA website: CRB Minutes

WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Formula/Sports Racer
FM
1. #9155 (Club Racing Board) Future of FM Engines
The CRB requests input, from FM drivers, owners and builders, on the issue of FM Spec engines.
1. Should FM remain a sealed, spec engine class.
2. If so, should alternate engine builders be included as official suppliers of spec engines?
3. If FM should not remain a sealed engine class, what engine specifications would the class embrace for the future?

[Dave Cutchins]

[quote=Ted Idlof;359694]Increasing HP puts strain elsewhere.


Dave, do you still have the same FM diff, clutch and other power transmitting parts? ...........

Ted,

When I got the car there were a number a things that needed attention including the transaxle. Someone had used stop leak to mask a leaking "o" ring, so cooling was an issue, and the fuel cell had a leak near the top. The clutch and the release bearing were nearly gone and I found a chipped tooth on the ring gear after the release bearing disintegrated at Roebling Road.The ECU also needed tunning and my friend Peter Florence http://pftuning.com/and Abacus Racing http://www.abacusracing.com/ have really got it running well.

I had K-Hill Motorsports install a new R&P and had all of the internals REM treated.
I also had the bearing carrier completely rebuilt by TRE. All of the internals are Hewland. It has the standard clutch, pressure plate and release bearing.

I know that the constant up and down shifting and the hard acceleration out of steep uphill corners is hard on the drive train, but so far so good. I guess the same can be said for road racing.
If anyone is comtemplating a stock renesis transplant I would be happy to share what I have learned and provide pics if needed.

[Lracer28]

Thanks everyone for the input! This helps immensly!!

[Ted Idlof]

I don't get it; what can the CRB be thinking? This goes way beyond the FM/FE merger idea.

posted today on SCCA website: CRB Minutes
WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Formula/Sports Racer
FM
1. #9155 (Club Racing Board) Future of FM Engines
The CRB requests input, from FM drivers, owners and builders, on the issue of FM Spec engines.
1. Should FM remain a sealed, spec engine class.
2. If so, should alternate engine builders be included as official suppliers of spec engines?

3. If FM should not remain a sealed engine class, what engine specifications would the class embrace for the future?

Looks to me like SCCA is trying to shoot themselves in the foot. The future and success of the FM is now and has always been in the hands of one single manufacturer. Anyone who doesn't like what Star and now Moses Smith have done, can go FS and do whatever they want. But the FM class needs to remain a controlled spec class. Tossing this question out to the masses who have no idea of how this class could be totally splintered and fade away is just silly.

I would urge anyone who enjoys the advantages of this spec class and wants to retain the foundations of its succes to respond to the CRB that you'll back whatever Moses Smith proposes.

[Lracer28]

I don't get it; what can the CRB be thinking? This goes way beyond the FM/FE merger idea.



Looks to me like SCCA is trying to shoot themselves in the foot. The future and success of the FM is now and has always been in the hands of one single manufacturer. Anyone who doesn't like what Star and now Moses Smith have done, can go FS and do whatever they want. But the FM class needs to remain a controlled spec class. Tossing this question out to the masses who have no idea of how this class could be totally splintered and fade away is just silly.

I would urge anyone who enjoys the advantages of this spec class and wants to retain the foundations of its succes to respond to the CRB that you'll back whatever Moses Smith proposes.

I agree that FM should remain a spec class, but as far as this thread is concerned im not aiming at a spec car for the most part

[Ted Idlof]

the issue deserves its own thread.

[Lracer28]

the issue deserves its own thread.

Very true, I think Daryl just created it!