Turbo DSR

[Marty Nygard]

For those of you that do not follow the other DSR forum, a week ago, Level 5 Motorsports tested a West DSR powered by a turbo Suzuki 670 at Road America with best laps in the 1:55s!

[stonebridge20]

That's getting it done!

[starkejt]

I thought that was not a Suzuki but a bespoke automotive style 670cc engine.

[starkejt]

NM I went and read the thread in question.

[supersonicus]

How long will it take until somebody gets killed in or around one of those? Those cars have no business going that fast.

Sorry to be a buzz kill, but its true.

[Paul LeCain]

You just knew that someone was eventually going to make one of these turbos live for more than a few minutes.

As to safety, the new (carbon tubbed) generation of DSR are at least as safe as the flat-bottom Atlantics (March 77, Ralt RT-1) that we used to drive. Those FAs were faster in a straight line than the current generation is.

[Wren]

I'm just going to go watch it drive into T5. I wonder what kind of trap speeds it is capapble of?

[akilcoyne]

Those are amazing times. LMP1 cars a few weeks ago were lapping in about those type of times (54-55's), with their quick laps in the 51's.

[nulrich]

Track record is 1:39 (CART) which gives an average speed of 146 mph...higher than the top speed of many classes! Pretty awesome to watch an Indycar go through Turn 1.

Nathan

[dalz]

You just knew that someone was eventually going to make one of these turbos live for more than a few minutes.

True, but I'm surprised that it took a pro ALMS prototype team that is spending (supposedly) north of a million bucks. But hey, more power to 'em.

Just think, the legendary Porsche Panzer wheeled by Donohue held the RA absolute track record at...1:57! And it stood for over a decade.

[TimW]

Just think, the legendary Porsche Panzer wheeled by Donohue held the RA absoloute track record at...1:57! And it stood for over a decade.

But also note the champ cars went from the low 1:50's to the mid 1:40s under the same formula after repaving. Its not always the cars going faster that makes the cars go faster.

[Brett Lane]

True, but I'm surprised that it took a pro ALMS prototype team that is spending (supposedly) north of a million bucks. But hey, more power to 'em.

Just think, the legendary Porsche Panzer wheeled by Donohue held the RA absolute track record at...1:57! And it stood for over a decade.

This could be pretty serious. When people come along and spend that kind of money to what end? Enough to turn DSR on its ear- a real game changer. I know guys spend a huge amount of money to get to the top of the ladder at the runoffs only to face this.

Still would be pretty nice to see... it make it more than a few laps.

[glenn cooper]

You just knew that someone was eventually going to make one of these turbos live for more than a few minutes.

As to safety, the new (carbon tubbed) generation of DSR are at least as safe as the flat-bottom Atlantics (March 77, Ralt RT-1) that we used to drive. Those FAs were faster in a straight line than the current generation is.

...but is this car carbon tub'd?

I always thought it would be cool to build a DSR out of the defunct FR2000 carbon tubed Fran Am cars.

[CSHAW]

with all the talk about turbo development this last year including Moon, how many turbo cars are entered? who?

thanks
Corey

[CSHAW]

...but is this car carbon tub'd?

I always thought it would be cool to build a DSR out of the defunct FR2000 carbon tubed Fran Am cars.

How about a brand new carbon survival cell ?

[KenT]

just went 1:58

[CSHAW]

Impressive

what happened to Jason Miller? only one lap?

[Wren]

4 seconds on the DSR field? That should get some people's attention.

[Stan Clayton]

4 seconds on the DSR field? That should get some people's attention.

Pay no attention to the turbo-DSR, CRB...Jacek is ahead of Jean-Luc. Better hand him another 130 lb weight penalty!

[KevinFirlein]

when did Jacek get the lead trophy ? during this season ?

[Stan Clayton]

when did Jacek get the lead trophy ? during this season ?

After the 2010 season his combo (Swift 016a w/2500cc unrestricted C/R MZR) was bumped from a 33mm SIR at 1230 lbs to a 31mm SIR at 1380 lbs (2mm smaller SIR AND 150 lbs lead trophy).

After the 2011 season (early this year) Jacek's combo had another 150 lbs added (to 1540).

After this year's Runoffs his combo will lose 2 more millimeters off the SIR (from 31mm down to 29mm), but will go down to 1400 lbs.

I have no argument with this latest weight revision, as it is about the right natural weight for a Swift 16. The SIR is a joke, though, as it chokes that engine down to complete uncompetitiveness, no matter which chassis one puts the engine in.

To put that last point in perspective, if one runs the "pro spec" Swift 16 with an unrestricted 2300cc MZR engine, one has a 32mm SIR at 1420 lbs. That's three more millimeters than the slightly larger MZR, yet is so uncompetitive that no one seriously competes with one in SCCA.

Okay, so that takes care of rendering Jacek uncompetitive. Now let's look at how Mirl and Keith ensured their new combo is top dog. Read the new FA engine rules for 2013. They've added the Toyota 4age at 1800cc...a displacement it never came in, but which they got by stuffing a Toyota 7afe's crankshaft into a 4age block. And they set it at 1205 lbs and a 30mm SIR.

That's 195 lbs less than Jacek's for-2013 weight AND has a larger SIR. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me.

[bill gillespie]

After the 2010 season his combo (Swift 016a w/2500cc unrestricted C/R MZR) was bumped from a 33mm SIR at 1230 lbs to a 31mm SIR at 1380 lbs (2mm smaller SIR AND 150 lbs lead trophy).

After the 2011 season (early this year) Jacek's combo had another 150 lbs added (to 1540).

After this year's Runoffs his combo will lose 2 more millimeters off the SIR (from 31mm down to 29mm), but will go down to 1400 lbs.

I have no argument with this latest weight revision, as it is about the right natural weight for a Swift 16. The SIR is a joke, though, as it chokes that engine down to complete uncompetitiveness, no matter which chassis one puts the engine in.

To put that last point in perspective, if one runs the "pro spec" Swift 16 with an unrestricted 2300cc MZR engine, one has a 32mm SIR at 1420 lbs. That's three more millimeters than the slightly larger MZR, yet is so uncompetitive that no one seriously competes with one in SCCA.

Okay, so that takes care of rendering Jacek uncompetitive. Now let's look at how Mirl and Keith ensured their new combo is top dog. Read the new FA engine rules for 2013. They've added the Toyota 4age at 1800cc...a displacement it never came in, but which they got by stuffing a Toyota 7afe's crankshaft into a 4age block. And they set it at 1205 lbs and a 30mm SIR.

That's 195 lbs less than Jacek's for-2013 weight AND has a larger SIR. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me.

Stan,

I admit I kinda' quit paying attention, but is the much loved "Table E" gone for FA in 2013 ? Case in point : I can't find any allowance for my 1800cc hybrid Cossie, or my buddies 2000cc bespoke BDG.

Is this an oversight, a law of unintended consequence, or a real sleight of hand from the 4AGE camp ?

Regards,
Bill

[KevinFirlein]

Stan thx for the info on Jacek CSR config history. I havent been paying much attention frankly and the only info I get is from a shop owner who calls after every race and just unloads with complaints.

As for the FA stuff I have my own strong opinions but this isnt the place as this thread was for a really cool car that finally did offically break the 2 minute barrier with its real pilot behind the wheel. The armed gaurd outside the canopy is a touch much though and completely out of place in club racing. Frankly if the SCCA hasnt already they should put an end to that immediately.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan,

I admit I kinda' quit paying attention, but is the much loved "Table E" gone for FA in 2013 ? Case in point : I can't find any allowance for my 1800cc hybrid Cossie, or my buddies 2000cc bespoke BDG.

Is this an oversight, a law of unintended consequence, or a real sleight of hand from the 4AGE camp ?

Regards,
Bill

I'm afraid it's not an oversight, Bill. The CRB got rid of ALL engine combos over 1615cc, except for the Toyota 1800cc, the VW 2-valve at 2135cc, the spec Swift 16, and the emasculated MZR 2500cc. Table E is no more. No more 2-valve option (other than the 215hp VW... ).

[Stan Clayton]

As for the FA stuff I have my own strong opinions but this isnt the place as this thread was for a really cool car that finally did offically break the 2 minute barrier with its real pilot behind the wheel.

Yeah...my bad. Doug, can you carve this sidebar out into its own thread? Thx!

[KenT]

Jeff Braun just tweeted the record lap was set in a drizzle with the kink and CC getting wet. The rest of the DSRs seem to be battling it out with the top CSRs and DSRs around the same pace.

[bill gillespie]

I'm afraid it's not an oversight, Bill. The CRB got rid of ALL engine combos over 1615cc, except for the Toyota 1800cc, the VW 2-valve at 2135cc, the spec Swift 16, and the emasculated MZR 2500cc. Table E is no more. No more 2-valve option (other than the 215hp VW... ).

Stan,

Advance apology for thread hijack, but..........let me see if I have this correct. The 1800 and 2000cc BD series Cosworths that have been here for 30years are now illegal, but the recent hybrid 1800cc Toyota is allowed ???? Hmmmmm...Wonder who has an 1800 Toyota ???? oh yeah. now I remember.

Also, I believe HRD was very interested in their spec 2.0 being introduced.......let's see, a longer lived, lower cost option for the faithful ? Not anymore....etc, etc.

Bill

[KenT]

Back on topic, I think the new West just upped the bar. Braun jusr tweeted all the groups that were involved . Also included a short video. Even Mulsanne Mike wrote an article. The w
WEST was good looking but, dare i say, this might raise the "looks" bar in DSR as well. OF course, if it adds the bespoke Dauntless wing.

[CSHAW]

I'm afraid it's not an oversight, Bill. The CRB got rid of ALL engine combos over 1615cc, except for the Toyota 1800cc, the VW 2-valve at 2135cc, the spec Swift 16, and the emasculated MZR 2500cc. Table E is no more. No more 2-valve option (other than the 215hp VW... ).

Stan, Are you talking about CSR or are you talking about Atlantic? As this is a sports racer thread so you have my head spinning a bit. I looked at the latest rules and my personal 2.1L engine, for my personal CSR project car (Line H) of the engine table is still listed as it was before. are you stating here that there is some new ruling that is going to make my engine illegal?

Or is this just a misunderstanding on my part? You really have me shaking my head in bewilderment here.

Please clarify

Thanks
Corey

[Stan Clayton]

Cory, I was talking about the FA rules. This being Apexspeed instead of the DSR forum I inelegantly conflated the two classes. Sorry about that. I have not seen any movement to constrain engine choices in sports racing.

[CSHAW]

Cory, I was talking about the FA rules. This being Apexspeed instead of the DSR forum I inelegantly conflated the two classes. Sorry about that. I have not seen any movement to constrain engine choices in sports racing.

Thanks, you made my heart jump in my throat with the fear of one more project getting messed up and becoming worthless. I haven't determined who I will put behind the wheel of it yet but it is a serious car and hope to be able to get it in the show.

Thanks
Corey

[KenT]

Carbon Fiber spar and sump tank. Sweet!

[fezzic181]

And there goes the 2 min mark during a race. Tucker with a 1:59.684

[KenT]

Braun said the car was reaching 183 mph. The announcers mentioned a 175 number. Don't know if that was testing or qualy.

Pretty cool car.

[Paul LeCain]

Braun said the car was reaching 183 mph. The announcers mentioned a 175 number. Don't know if that was testing or qualy.

Pretty cool car.

In the speed trap entering turn 5 he did 175 in Q1 and 168.8 in the race.
Mucha had the fastest CSR speed at 162.8.
Yelkin had a 158 in FA.

[brownslane]

Turbo cars make speed in a different way. The longer the throttle is open, the faster the car...it will just keep climbing (well, sort of)...so top speed for a turbo car will be into Canada corner, not down into 5. Top speed in excess of 180 is just past the kink!

This car is a Brian Willis design; what a great car.

There is more in the car IMHO....like a couple of seconds! If the CRB don't kill it, look for a barn burner next year! At least for one manufacturer.... we have seen the end of Stohr dominance. The new West would win races even if it did not have the turbo.

And I agree with the view about the West being a pretty car. It really sets a whole new standard.

Tom

[starkejt]

I finally got a chance to watch the start and first few laps last night. The difference in acceleration, especially at the start, was staggering. Seemed like he would give most of the time back under braking and through the corners, then disappear under acceleration, then repeat. I doubt that is a reflection of the car's capabilities, though....

[KenT]

I think he was pacing himself and an engineer of his posted as much on the SR forum.

"I saw a comment about "sandbagging" and I wanted to say that, to me, that term infers a deception and there is none going on here. I often quote Penske who said, 'Win at the slowest speed possible". Those were Scott's instructions from us and he delivered a perfect performance. The turbo power is intoxicating but fragile and he resisted the temptation to lay down an quick time in favor of a few under 2 min and 13 solid laps."

Here is his response when asked how many engines they went through in development.

"Fair question Dave and a surprising answer.

Back in January we began two parallel development programs one turbo and one NA. We had considered all kinds of ideas including 2 strokes and even diesels.

Once we made the choice to focus on a Suzuki turbo we built a dyno mule out of stock parts and ran the crap out of it......we couldn't kill that motor. It still runs in fact. Rick stripped the teeth off of 5th gear once but it was exposed to way more HP than we used at the Runoffs.

After Rick got some of the proper race parts in the engine and we started testing in the car we ran over 600 miles on the same bottom end with no failures. To date I don't think there has been a bottom end failure in the Level 5 program.

We ran out of time on the valve train development and that is where all of our concerns were at the runoffs. We broke two engines in 8 laps the Monday before Runoffs and week almost broke one during qualifying.

We only used two engines during the race week and it drove out of the tech shed!

Ed
"

[Paul LeCain]

I watched the whole race.

It seemed like Scott was driving in the middle of the road through the corners, not using anything close to the whole road.

If really pressed, it looks to me like there is a least 2-3 seconds in this car, probably more.

Let's see now, what's the displacement limit for turbo-s in CSR? (Just looked at the GCR - 765cc with 33mm SIR or 36 mm venturis. What does that mean?)

Should be interesting.

[Stan Clayton]

If really pressed, it looks to me like there is a least 2-3 seconds in this car, probably more.

Since the car ran 1:55 in testing while Scott ran a 58-something, it's safe to say there are 2-3 seconds left in it...

PS - Oh, and give them another year to work on the suspension and it will be in the low 1:50's.

Which begs the question...will the CRB/BoD leave that spending war open, or will they reign in the technology with in inlet restrictor to level the playing field? I just don't see the collective CSR/DSR fields standing by saying nothing. We shall see...