Why is the FC count so low for the Runoffs?

[reidhazelton]

Just curious. Seems only like 11(?) are entered. What gives? That is one of the races I am sure to watch every year.

[Will Velkoff]

Well to my knowledge, most of the F2000 Pro Series guys run a full 7 weekend season or close to it, and don't end up doing Nationals to qualify for the Runoffs.

[Rick Kean]

Given the small INTERSECTION of SETS of Pro and Club Racing Formula participants that still seem interested in the Runoffs, is it the right time for a UNION of those SETS to occur at the RUNOFFS?

Award One Title per Class, or separate Pro and Club Titles...

just throw'n it out there

Rick Kean

[starkejt]

I don't follow. Can I get a Venn diagram?

[Beartrax]

Draw the Venn diagram yourself, Josh, or we will recall your high school diploma!

[starkejt]

high school diploma

Never got one.

[BWC54]

I don't follow. Can I get a Venn diagram?

Here you go

[starkejt]

<Golf clap>

[Chris Livengood]

Here you go

*fixed

[Matt M.]

The other 60 eligible cars were deemed to be illegal based on new rules....
(Who can resist an opening like that)

Wait - are the 11 entered all the same make?

[starkejt]

[Rick Kean]

Just what I had in mind, a union of sadomasochistic insanity.

In all fairness, diversity, and such like, perhaps we should include the entire BDSM set.

[Jnovak]

This is a good thread. I really like the technical shi*

thanks ... Jay Novak

[S Lathrop]

I think the entries are an expression of the interest in club racing a formula car. When it is the only option, you do it. The pro series is way more fun and satisfying.

The effort to qualify for the run offs and run the pro series is beyond the budget and allowable time commitment of most club racers. If the pro series had the same number of invitations as an SCCA division, you might see a full entry from the pro series participants at the run offs.

[Steve Demeter]

Simply put the runoffs are probably way too expensive for the average club racer to go to, from the horror tales I have heard on here.

[BrianT1]

It's sad to say I am missing the runoffs this year due to many factors. One is the downward economy and my struggle to make it in it. But other factors have really discouraged me from it. Like the fact SCCA has cut the number of nationals down in each division. As well as overloading each race group at nationals to the point of insanity on the track. One example was gingerman this year where there was 45 cars on a 2 mile track with a mix of csr, dsr, fa, s2, f2000, f1000, Cfc. There are way to many classes in scca to be viable and really the runoffs has lost its mojo in the past few years. This will be the second runoffs I have missed since 2002 and I have to say its just not what it once was.

Road America pretty much rapes us in costs and it's pretty unsustainable in this day and age. I hate to say it but I think SCCA better wake up and make some pretty hard decisions about its future or it is going to go by the wayside.

Brian Tomasi

[John Merriman]

Okay.....so - just curiou$ - what doe$it cost to make a medium/$erious run at winning the RunOff$?

[BrianT1]

That is a hard one to answer. It all depends on what your starting with as far as car and skill, etc. you really can't pit a number on it.

[Jnovak]

Okay.....so - just curiou$ - what doe$it cost to make a medium/$erious run at winning the RunOff$?

All your resources. mental, physical, time, friends, $$$ etc.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Lotus7]

It's not just the runoff entries that are low.
Look at the latest Sportscar - the 'results' section towards thew back shows maybe 8 various Nationals around the country with only 1 or 2 or 3 entries in FC. :-(
(Yes, Road America had 11 for the obvious reason).

Can't speak for out west, but why would anyone on the east coast race SCCA instead of the Mike/Mike/Bob show? :-)

[Purple Frog]

Hard to say what all the reasons are.

But, when DaveW quits going, you know something is up. He went I'm guessing every year since 1971. Then after a couple of Topekas he quit.

The length of time it takes between testing the week before, and waiting to race during the SCCA schedule might be one reason.

Steve Davis, Niki, and Kris Kiaser told me horror stories about what RA is charging to park. 4 figures for Kris.

And, I guess it could be said Rand puts on about 14 Runoffs intensity races per season, at less cost per weekend than the RA price structure.

I think they are losing more of the back of the field. Guys like me that used to go just to be able to say we had done the Runoffs. You used to be able to do it at a bit more cost than a typical National. Now its gotten more expensive, so a lot of us backmarkers have faded away.

10 years ago a lot of today's FB guys and FE guys would be driving FCs. Add up current FB, FC, and FE Runoffs fields and you'll probably be at the entry number of the '05 Runoffs at M-O.

[reidhazelton]

Well said. I guess I figured some singular, recent event occurred. Seems to me last year that was 25+, if my memory serves me.

And yes, you have heard correct about parking. Total...bull...snot. But wait...there's more. You pay through the nose to park, right? You would think you could sleep in your tow vehicle/RV then. Well...WRONG. You get to pay for that too. Camping fee...for parking in the same friggin place you already paid for! YES! Double whammy!

[thunderracing91]

All these reasons mentioned in this thread is why we left open wheel road racing. I just took a step back and said this is plain ridicoulous. Seemed like everytime I worked on the car or raced the car it was just constantly spending thousands to do it right. Travel, time and money.....................I have thought about renting a car once or twice a year to keep my license but that can get pricey too.

Andrew

[Jnovak]

All of the above posts are clearly stated and meaningful reasons why car counts are down for all classes. I hope the SCCA is paying attention!

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[a. pettipas]

Well said. I guess I figured some singular, recent event occurred. Seems to me last year that was 25+, if my memory serves me.

15 last year
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...fc%20final.pdf

[cprevenas]

Hey Guys,

This is a great thread and very informative for someone like me, who's not driving. As an F&C worker, we don't get real context around what an event costs a driver.

I am wondering about things that have happened in the past. Reid, you mention the double whammy, which I can totally agree is Road America's approach. But, what did you pay in the past? Was Topeka all free? Mid-Ohio?

The reason that I ask, is I seem to recall that after leaving Mid-Ohio, the first year at Topeka was a decent entry, then it dropped. I am pretty confident that the total entry for the last two years at Topeka was somewhere in the 500's as well, which is what it has been at RA minus maybe the first year.

** I relize the economy has done wacky things over that time, but am curious as to how different tracks handled this? **

Thanks.

Chris

[Brett Lane]

What I don't understand is how Road America pays the SCCA to host the event, and their costs are passed onto the customer(s)- the competitors. How long has this really crappy way of doing "business" been going on? Just how much does the SCCA charge Road America?

If the runoffs is the pinnacle event in all of amatuer road racing, why are they screwing it up? It just seems to me that it makes a whole lot of sense to find a better way to balance their budget, and I am sure there is more than one.

Am I wrong, or am I missing something?

[BrianT1]

The costs are just one factor and the track is partially to blame. But most of the blame falls on the SCCA for there lack of insight and ability to make harsh decisions. The racing is so diluted and there are very few new members coming in. As I said before they better make some drastic changes or they are going to be gone. The June sprint the last two years have been pathetic for turnouts.

[reidhazelton]

Hey Guys,

This is a great thread and very informative for someone like me, who's not driving. As an F&C worker, we don't get real context around what an event costs a driver.

I am wondering about things that have happened in the past. Reid, you mention the double whammy, which I can totally agree is Road America's approach. But, what did you pay in the past? Was Topeka all free? Mid-Ohio?

The reason that I ask, is I seem to recall that after leaving Mid-Ohio, the first year at Topeka was a decent entry, then it dropped. I am pretty confident that the total entry for the last two years at Topeka was somewhere in the 500's as well, which is what it has been at RA minus maybe the first year.

** I relize the economy has done wacky things over that time, but am curious as to how different tracks handled this? **

Thanks.

Chris

First, thank you for working Chris!! I am parked up by the 5 Mile Merchant, if you have some time stop by. (Silver 20" Haulmark, Candy red 01 FF).

I can't say what others were, I am a new guy to the whole scene so I have only been to the Runoffs since 2009.

And Road America doesn't stop at drivers, they bone the workers too. I hear they CHARGE WORKERS for camping!! Milwaukee Region (other may too) cover the cost for the workers. These people are volunteering their time, gas, and expense and RA charges them?? Eff that! I get having to make money....but really? How much money will you make when there are no workers to support an event? I even heard a story about charging a worker in a wheelchair exponentially more to camp because they had to make accommodations....essentially making her pay for it. Ridiculous.

Ok, rant over. Thanks again for working! (Remember...red FF 01...preferential blue flags will get you a ) Kidding!

[reidhazelton]

The costs are just one factor and the track is partially to blame. But most of the blame falls on the SCCA for there lack of insight and ability to make harsh decisions. The racing is so diluted and there are very few new members coming in. As I said before they better make some drastic changes or they are going to be gone. The June sprint the last two years have been pathetic for turnouts.

Yup. This year the Sprints looked like a Ghost town. Chicago region did everything they could to make it a great event, and the succeeded. Still, no one showed up. The lower paddock by T14 was 25% capacity. Pretty sad. Looked like a load in day on race day. Pathetic indeed.

Anyone got $75k for me to go run Rand's series?? I have a kidney is for sale...non smoker, non drinker 20 something. Mint condition, only used to go to church on Sunday. Available after the Runoffs.

[reidhazelton]

About this time someone posts the increase in entry fees over the last 10 years....something like $50/year increase.

[reidhazelton]

15 last year
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...fc%20final.pdf

Too many paint fumes I guess. Seemed like more, guess not. Thanks!

[kea]

Cprevenas,
If I have this correct, Mid-Ohio was the first track that had to pay SCCA to host the event.
I remember going there for the first one after years of Road Atlanta, and noticed they had SCCA change the number (increase) of cars per class that were invited. Also that they "rented" parking spots along the section between turn 1 and the key hole (maybe other places too). Some other "fees" went up and we deceided not to bring our trailer down from Michigan for the event, because the venders fee was too high. This was in an attempt to recover their "investment"
The first year at a new venue, always brings with it the anticipation of a good time, better racing, thus a large entry. But with SCCA, there is a certain amount of baggage that invariably brings it all back down.
I love the concept, been a Detroit Region SCCA member since 1971, but the cost vs. the enjoyment has gotten out of control.
Even after I stopped racing after 1988, I've gone to the event most years since 1974.
I skipped #2 and #3 in Kansas.
I'll be staying home this year.

[blackbmwk1200r]

So if national level events like the runoffs become increasingly irrelevant and the only real opportunity to race against top national competitors is in a pro series that exceeds the budget constraints of many, what prevents formula car only regional organizations like the FRCCA in the Northeast from being more successful at attracting top level participants?

From my perhaps naïve perspective it seems that the difficulty for organizations like the FRCCA lies in the fact that top level drivers want to race against other top level drivers in their region and beyond and they don’t see that happening outside the SCCA. However, if several of the top drivers got fed up enough to make the move, it seems probable (possible?) that others would follow and momentum would build creating a viable formula car only alternative that with time and support should be able to address many of the points of dissatisfaction addressed frequently in this forum and ultimately provide a national venue for top level drivers not interested or able to participate in a pro series.

Perhaps I am completely off the mark but I have difficulty understanding why formula car only organizations like the FRCCA run by great guys like John Heckman can’t seem to attract more of the top level competitors in the regions where they operate.

[DaveW]

Hard to say what all the reasons are.

But, when DaveW quits going, you know something is up. He went I'm guessing every year since 1971. Then after a couple of Topekas he quit....

I quit going mostly because the National racing to get to the Runoffs was so pathetic - almost no competition in class, 8-class incompatible race groups, incompetent sports racer moving chicanes 20 seconds off the pace on a 65-second lap at Nelson Ledges, etc.

The availability of the F2KCS pro series made it almost a no-brainer to switch.

[Ralph Z.]

I have been recently thinking about the best place to play. And, of course, the cost to play is an important factor. So, I did an analysis on the variable costs to race a weekend across three venues with a FF: The F1600 Pro Series, SVRA Vintage racing and SCCA National/Regional racing.

I considered the costs of entry, tires, race fuel and motor rebuild. Travel expenses do not enter the picture as these will be similar for each series. The caveat is that the Pro Series car would be Honda powered while the vintage and SCCA would be Ford powered. This makes a significant difference in engine rebuild costs. I did not factor the cost to purchase the car as we'll assume you can recoup the cost when sold.

Once the costs for each venue was summed I compared it to the number of "seat time hours" that each venue would offer in one weekend of racing. Hours did not include the extra practice time available at some venues or relevant costs.

The results are as follows:

SCCA National/Regional event: $873 per seat time hour

SVRA vintage event: $700 per seat time hour

F1600 Pro Series event: $605 per seat time hour

The Pro Series events are the best value out there.

The seat time for each event is:

SCCA National/Regional: 1.5 hours per event
SVRA vintage: ~2 hours per event
F1600 Pro Series: ~3 hours per event

I contend that this is why the Pro Series events are doing well. Plus, we're not racing the "alphabet soup" mix that we see in SCCA.

[Chris Livengood]

Yup. This year the Sprints looked like a Ghost town. Chicago region did everything they could to make it a great event, and the succeeded. Still, no one showed up. The lower paddock by T14 was 25% capacity. Pretty sad. Looked like a load in day on race day. Pathetic indeed.

Anyone got $75k for me to go run Rand's series?? I have a kidney is for sale...non smoker, non drinker 20 something. Mint condition, only used to go to church on Sunday. Available after the Runoffs.

Assuming you own a car 75k seems a little high unless you are making a dedicated run at the top ten.

1k Entry x 7 weekends = 7k
1k Yearly Registration = 1k
1k per set of tires * 14 = 14k (that's two sets of tires a weekend, i've done weekends on as few as 4 tires and as many as 10)
1.5k Travel & Expense x 7 weekends = 10.5k

Grand total = 32.5K

This excludes mechanical failures and crashes, but those expenses should be about similar to what you would have at SCCA races.

If you hire an engineer and pay for prep this goes up fast. That said, the guys who run SCCA aren't doing that. They run themselves. Additionally, who said you have to do all 7 weekends at F2000CS? Run 4 of the weekends and you cost drops significantly. Besides, at F2000CS you get so much track time you would have to run 10 SCCA club events to equal 4 F2000CS weekends.

F2000CS beats SCCA for value hand down. This is from a poor guys perspective, at least relative to many of my race track companions.

[Daryl DeArman]

So if national level events like the runoffs become increasingly irrelevant and the only real opportunity to race against top national competitors is in a pro series that exceeds the budget constraints of many, what prevents formula car only regional organizations like the FRCCA in the Northeast from being more successful at attracting top level participants?

From my perhaps naïve perspective it seems that the difficulty for organizations like the FRCCA lies in the fact that top level drivers want to race against other top level drivers in their region and beyond and they don’t see that happening outside the SCCA. However, if several of the top drivers got fed up enough to make the move, it seems probable (possible?) that others would follow and momentum would build creating a viable formula car only alternative that with time and support should be able to address many of the points of dissatisfaction addressed frequently in this forum and ultimately provide a national venue for top level drivers not interested or able to participate in a pro series.

Perhaps I am completely off the mark but I have difficulty understanding why formula car only organizations like the FRCCA run by great guys like John Heckman can’t seem to attract more of the top level competitors in the regions where they operate.

I don't find your perspective naive at all. It just becomes a matter of getting those seeking the top level of competition to agree to go to one event---the level of competiton has ZERO to do with who is sanctioning the race and everything to do with who is there (and what they perceive to be at stake). The sanctioning body effects how the event runs and is promoted.

[Dennis McCarthy]

Road racing is wonderful isn't is, the clowns pay the promoter to be in the circus

[reidhazelton]

Assuming you own a car 75k seems a little high unless you are making a dedicated run at the top ten.

1k Entry x 7 weekends = 7k
1k Yearly Registration = 1k
1k per set of tires * 14 = 14k (that's two sets of tires a weekend, i've done weekends on as few as 4 tires and as many as 10)
1.5k Travel & Expense x 7 weekends = 10.5k

Grand total = 32.5K

This excludes mechanical failures and crashes, but those expenses should be about similar to what you would have at SCCA races.

If you hire an engineer and pay for prep this goes up fast. That said, the guys who run SCCA aren't doing that. They run themselves. Additionally, who said you have to do all 7 weekends at F2000CS? Run 4 of the weekends and you cost drops significantly. Besides, at F2000CS you get so much track time you would have to run 10 SCCA club events to equal 4 F2000CS weekends.

F2000CS beats SCCA for value hand down. This is from a poor guys perspective, at least relative to many of my race track companions.

Agree it is the best value, but even at $32k that is 4x what I spend now at nationals. Someday I'll leave the nest of SCCA...I'd sure like to run the Randfest.

And that total does not include wear and tear or anything. Add that in and we are talking more than my annual salary.