How many FB racers/cars?
I'm wondering how many active FB racers/cars are out there. Anyone happen to know? Also, I'm wondering how many would commit to a real series run by a organization like the F2000 guys. It's obvious that there is a good amount of interest seeing how many turned out for the two Lewis events. Id bet the entries would be close to double if it were at the Rand/Wright events. Maybe if we had a good list of potential entries we can get something going.
F1000 car count
Hard to determine the number.
National points YTD give you an idea with 31 F1000 that you can compare to FC, FF etc.
Link: http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...atpts-0731.pdf
I believe there are about 5 F1000 that compete Regional only in SE Division. Then I know of several F1000's that have not been out this year. Then you may have several track day cars.
It was mentioned in a thread that Rand could use the existing FA Pro Platform and add in F1000 in a split class Series to maximize car count. Then and if the numbers increased they could be split. That may make the most sense and be a win win solution for Rand and F1000.
We should not to forget that we must also maintain SCCA National participation in our class. A Pro Series would dilute that number.
Michael
We have two cars in our stable. The number 7 Novak kit on my 99 Van diemen chassis and we did our own conversion on a 95 Van diemen.
We have the Nova-Piper.
Jay Novak
We have 3 1/2 (the half being the runoff crash) and building the 4th. We were thinking of committing to Lewis's, but everything went south. We will commit to another if it comes forward
Sal
Philadelphia Motorsports
Mike B probably has at least 90% of them in a list somewhere.
F1000
I have two Van Diemen F1000. One is for sale on APEX. It is a much lower cost alternative compared to what i have seen for a competitive used FF, FC, FE, FA.
JDR Motorsport has two more cars in the works. They recently made there debut at the Cat National. I have only seen partial pics of the car but it looks interesting.
Christopher Crowe is building a new car or ?
I would think there are well over 50 F1000's around and it is growing. Those transitioning out of go karts should be all over F1000. I see F1000 as the best value for the dollar as it relates to car cost and engine cost. There is no reason that the growth of F1000 would not continue long term.
The best way to grow the FB class is to get out and race in SCCA events. Sitting around wishing for a "Pro" series is not going to do it.
The majority of FB owners are middle-aged, amatuer racers (like me!), many of whom do not have the time, money, or energy to run in a "Pro" series. The class will not survive long term unless it has a good basic foundation in the club racing world.
Last edited by Rick Ross; 08.06.12 at 3:00 PM.
F1000
Rick, I agree and we need more car count at Nationals for a healthy class. The F1000 Pro Series this year hurt our car count at some of the Nationals. The tire contingencies for Nationals don't even kick in for P1/P2 without 5 cars. Mike B's Series rebirth overlayed on Nationals is a great substitue for a Pro Series and promotes SCCA car count. The Double National schedule is a great formate to leverage off of as well. It is working on the Left Coast F1000 Pro Series I think. So it should be a win win. It promotes F1000 car count and you have a Pro Series. Some complain about mixed group racing, but the F1000 is typically near the front of the group and it makes the race interesting having to negotiate lapped traffic.
BTW I think it is time for you to finish up the Ralt and move over to F1000. I remember you were very quick in the FM and F1000 is made for you. Have you priced a set of Atlantic tires lately. Ouch!
Michael
I know there has been some confusion about which series is what.
The F1000 Championship is an East Coast series that runs it's own races under SCCA pro racing sanctioning. Drivers there don't get credit for SCCA national points or finishes.
The F1000 Pro Series is a West Coast series that runs it's races within the SCCA national program. One of the things we are looking at for next year is buying our own run group at some of the nationals. This would get us away from the alphabet soup situation and still have all the drivers get credit for having run a SCCA national. But I have concerns in making that kind of commitment. For reasons you'll see below.
Right now anyway this seems to be the best formula for runnning an F1000 series at the moment. Costs to run a standlone series might be too prohibitive. The car count numbers just aren't there yet it seems to support such a series.
I have a list laying around somewhere that had every known F1000 car in USA and Canada as of January 2012. I believe the number was somewhere in the mid-30 range. Maybe 4 or 5 cars could be added to that list since then. So perhaps around 40 now. My best guess anyway without consulting my list.
You'll need nearly every last one of those cars competing in your series for it to make economic sense to run as a standlone series. I must have done the numbers a thousand times over. Running alongside the other Rand series would offset some of those costs. But your drivers would probably have to carry a heavier burden of the costs than if they were running a series within the SCCA national program. Question is, would it really be worth it? What added value would there be? If you can achieve the same thing running within the SCCA national program I guess I don't see it.
I've counted 24 cars here on the West Coast. Of those perhaps 15-17 of them can make any event. Others are either projects still yet to make it to the track, or in the hands of drivers that are unlikely to compete in any series.
This year our participation numbers were way down (each driver that didn't compete had their own reasons). Also we lost 5-6 of our regular drivers from last year who decided to quit racing. So you'll be dealing with up and and down entry numbers. I'm hoping to have at least 12 entries for every event next year and I would be real happy with that. That's most likely going to be around the number (give or take a couple) you might be able to get on any series on the East coast as well.
Either way you will have to deal with no-shows at any event you put on. If you are paying money as a series just to be involved in that event that means you as an organizer will have to eat the costs from any entry that fails to show up. More reason to be wary of going in that direction. Same thing is true if you want to buy a run group at a national. The organizer would be on the hook for any costs not covered from withdrawn entries.
Running within the SCCA national program is a safe way to get a series up and going. Risks are minimal to an organizer. You can build up the series slowly, gradually. get it stablized. Once you stray off that path you're in deep water rather quickly. Risks go way up, and so does the chances of failure.
Fortunately, my old Ralt uses the bias ply tires.....so not much more expensive than FB.Originally Posted by crowe motorsports
Hope to see you at a race or two next year!
After the last month or so, I don't think there's any confusion at all.
I think your list is about 10-15 short. In 2010, there were 38 cars that scored points in the Mystt F1000 National Championship. 36 in 2011. There are 5 cars in the Chicago area that only race Midwestern Council. There may be some overlap from year to year as cars change hands but I believe the number is north of 50, with another 5-10 cars either in the planning or construction phase.
Ya think?
If I may suggest?
It is always a good idea to keep a running tally of total cars in a given class. Itis especially important when trying to build numbers.
The FST guys have done a good job in tracking the number of cars and owners (including transfer) in the US. Here is the thread: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30640
Start a thread and have Mike B make it a sticky.
I think this could only be good for FB as you grow.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
[QUOTE=Rick Ross;355586]Fortunately, my old Ralt uses the bias ply tires.....so not much more expensive than FB.
OK, then have you priced an engine rebuild or tranny rebuild for a FA lately
Your a good guy/driver and you need to come on over to F1000
Michael
Mike, have you got a list you can share? Could be ive missed a couple of cars but north of 50 sounds way too high.
Hey- I resemble that remark! I missed the whole National season just because I didn't have a spare engine. Hopefully I'll have better luck next season, and think everyone that can get to the runoffs do so. Then try to get a good group to the ARRC in November, and concentrate on National competition in 2013.
I gotta admit Jon's series looked too good to be true, and I wanted to get in but just simply didn't have the time and money. I like the idea that Thomas Copeland mentioned about buying a National run group. I didn't know you could do that.
Buying your own group at a Nationals? does that mean a split start or an entire separate race? if it is a separate race that would be cool. what does something like that cost?
Entire separate race.
It could take the form of entire separate practice, qualifying and race, or maybe only the race is separate. That's to be worked out. Pricing would be an issue of course. Want to keep things as cheap as possible.
I talked to one region on the West Coast about it last year (for 2012), but with entries off this year didn't make sense for 2012. I plan on revisiting it over the off-season and talking to other regions where we run about it. The series drivers I have spoken to about it seem to like the idea.
Costs of buying a run group vary between regions I've spoken to. Sorry can't divulge publicly what I've been qouted.
Back to car counts - Mike Holland's F1000 is on the scales as we speak and we are in paint.
Hope the cooling system works, it's currently 104 (feels like 103) in Tulsa. But don't forget it's a dry heat.
Ok, without giving too much away. if 12-15 guys signed up for a "separate race" would their entry fees more or less than $1000 per weekend?
My goal would be to keep it under $1000.
In some of the regions I believe it definitely would. Some others it would be a near thing or just a bit above $1000.
i'm only speaking for myself but I think that $1000 for a national race weekend in a separate race seems pretty reasonable. I don't think you would have any issues asking for that. You could even offer it to the FA guys if you wanted to bring costs down. Works at the Runoffs.
Pro Series Ideas
I think $1,000 for a designated Pro Race overlayed on a National would keep some potential drivers from particpating. Certainly for a split start arrangement it seems high. Some premium for a separate race group is reasonable to expect and could make sense if a promoter could determine a committed car count early. Then he would know what funding he had to negotiate a separate run group. I know this is easier said than actually making it happen.
The West Coast F1000 Pro Series has a program that is apparently working. Mike B Series is being resurrected for the Runoffs with plans for 2013. I am not sure how the JL Series will play out. It does make sense to have a East Series and West Series. Maybe they could joint venture promoting The Runoffs at Road America as the East Meets West and crown a Grand Champion.
I have the feeling from reading some posts that lower Pro Entry fees are more important than bigger payouts. Also lower fees have a better chance of driving higher participation. Then higher participation gives promoters more creative options with payouts.
F1000 benefits from a lot of makes. Van Diemen Nova, Stohr, RFR, Phoenix, Citation, Piper Nova, Philly, Edge, JDR and more coming on line. Also we have a broad age group with many being 50 plus. So maybe the promoters could get the manufacturers do pay a reasonable amount to create a makes Championship for year end payout and have all drivers 50 or older pay in a reasonable amount for a payout to a the top three or more in a Masters Championship at year end. So maybe this enhances car count and the fun factor with several potential titles to chase within the series.
Pro Series
Master Series
Makes Championship
A goal should be to:
-Keep entry fees reasonable to drive higher car count. Higher car count will only provide a promoter more flexibility.
-Try and pay deep into the field rather that just the top three on the basis we all know that you are not going to cover your costs and anything is better than nothing.
-Have drawings for certificates, parts or supplies from sponsors.
In summary, I realize the ideas come easy and executing suggestions/ideas requires a lot of work and make the whole process more complicated for a promoter.
car count
So what is the car count?
Mike B knows exactly how many Van Diemens are out there. If each constructor could chime in with their numbers. That's if you could get them to put out that info.
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