85 or 96 reynard cv/hub/bell/wheel bearing drawing or pics

[t walgamuth]

Does anybody have pics of an 85 or 86 reynard cv, bell, wheel flange and bearing assembly showing all the parts?

I have had multiple failures of my right rear wheel bearing and am trying to figure out how to stop it. I have replaced the wheel bearing and the wheel flange so far and am wondering if I need to replace the upright and or the cv bell.

I am also wondering how the wheel flange is supposed to be pinned to the bearing/cv bell?

The way mine is does not seem very strong.

[-pru-]

Have you tried Larry Oliver at IRP? I am fairly certain he will have what you are seeking as his older catalogs used to include extensive breakdown diagrams for the 85 Reynard.

On the subject of your wheel bearing problems, have you checked the upright bore cracks? Is the bore true? Worth a check to eliminate this component.

[Dick R.]

Tom,

I just emailed you copies of the 85 parts manuals which may have the pics you need in part 2. Also sent an 88 tech manual which might be useful but I really don't know.

Dick

85 VD with no manuals

[t walgamuth]

Have you tried Larry Oliver at IRP? I am fairly certain he will have what you are seeking as his older catalogs used to include extensive breakdown diagrams for the 85 Reynard.

On the subject of your wheel bearing problems, have you checked the upright bore cracks? Is the bore true? Worth a check to eliminate this component.

Thanks Pru!

How does one check aluminum for cracks? Also how to check the bore for trueness? My machinist says the upright must be ok since it is very difficult to press in the bearing. I am beginning to be sceptical about this as a reliable test of its worth.

With the inner bell and the outer wheel flange bolted together with the six smaller bolts and the one enormous 3/4" bolt it is hard to see how there is any wiggle being allowed. We are assuming the bearings are failing due to lack of support. Can we be stretching the six small bolts and the large 3/4" bolt?

Does someone know the proper torque for the large bolt? We've been torquing it to 230 ft lb.

[t walgamuth]

Thanks Dick! I did get the images by email.

[Barry Ott]

I've been fighting bearing issues too... I'm not familiar with how the Reynard is assembled (I never touched my '88's bearings) but..... I had a bad SKF bearing, right out of the box. I ended up dissassembling the bearing and polishing a few ten thousands off of one of the inner races to allow the bearing to be preloaded. The tolerance stack-up was such that the inner races contacted before the bearing was preloaded. FAG was recommended to me as a better manufacturer, but I can't confirm or deny that.

The other issue I had was slight variations in bearing design that had the surface which interfaces with the inner hub deform slightly to remove the preload on the bearing. My advice is to put as many parts as you can in the entire assemble into the press to make sure that things are getting preloaded correctly. When I had things right, I was able to feel changes in how freely the upright rotated based on how snuggly I pressed the pieces together, confirming that the bearing was being preloaded.

I don't know if any of this relates to your situation, but I hope it helps! Best of luck!

Barry

[kea]

You can use a three-part, dye penetrant, crack-check method that can be purchased at any machine shop supply, type business.
This is the way I crack checked my alloy wheels in the past.

[t walgamuth]

I've been fighting bearing issues too... I'm not familiar with how the Reynard is assembled (I never touched my '88's bearings) but..... I had a bad SKF bearing, right out of the box. I ended up dissassembling the bearing and polishing a few ten thousands off of one of the inner races to allow the bearing to be preloaded. The tolerance stack-up was such that the inner races contacted before the bearing was preloaded. FAG was recommended to me as a better manufacturer, but I can't confirm or deny that.

The other issue I had was slight variations in bearing design that had the surface which interfaces with the inner hub deform slightly to remove the preload on the bearing. My advice is to put as many parts as you can in the entire assemble into the press to make sure that things are getting preloaded correctly. When I had things right, I was able to feel changes in how freely the upright rotated based on how snuggly I pressed the pieces together, confirming that the bearing was being preloaded.

I don't know if any of this relates to your situation, but I hope it helps! Best of luck!

Barry

Barry,
Thanks for your response.

How did you know the bearing was faulty?

If the bearing has too much interference between the inner races will that force them apart even more resulting in a very loose bearing situation?

We have been assuming the failures were due to a lack of support from the other parts. The cv bell appears to be unworn and the wheel flange was new this last time so I am looking at a new upright and a new inner bell. Of course if I buy all that and the bearing is faulty I will be pretty disappointed.

Is there a way to test the bearing?

When did you get your bad bearing?

Thanks again!

Tom

[Barry Ott]

Both my bearing issues had a small amount of play after everything was assembled. David Clubine of Britain West told me of his experience with bad bearings out of the box and, after discussing the situation, we thought it was a likely scenario. My front assembly is a simple stub axle pressed through the inner races with a big nut on the other end. Looking at the upright bore, it looked fine, the bearing was reasonably difficult to press in to the upright, so that didn't seem to indicate the upright. The real tip off was that adding torque on the big nut didn't have any effect on how easy the upright spun around the stub axle, which told me the bearing wasn't being preloaded. After I removed a little material from one of the inner races (where it touches the other inner race), adding torque to the big nut made the upright harder to turn. CAREFUL not to get carried away!
With this test in mind, I started working on the rear. This assembly has two "hubs" that sandwich the inner races, with the outer hub being pressed almost all the way through both inner races. Note that the two hubs should NOT touch in the middle, if they do, then they can't maintain the clamping force on the inner races and the bearing will loose preload. When I went out for my shake down runs, I had a tiny bit of play in the assembly, and ~12 laps turned that into a bit more. This was because the inner hub mating surface to the bearing inner race wasn't quite right so it deformed the inner hub surface a little, which allowed the two hubs to touch, blah, blah, balh. The good part was that the inner hub to bearing interface was deformed enough that it wasn't going to move any more. So, I removed some material from one of the hub surfaces to allow the two hubs to clamp around bearing without touching. Back to the preload check, I assemble the upright, the two hubs and the bearing in the press and confirmed that the upright spun around the "axle" with more resistance as I increased the clamping force (CAREFUL!), confirming the bearing was preloaded. So, long story, hope it helps!

So, yes, if the bearing has too much interference between the two inner races, the assembly will have play. The interference I'm talking about is where the two inner races touch each other, which keeps the the surfaces where the inner and outer balls roll too far apart, so the balls can't be squeezed on to the outer race ball surfaces.

For me, testing the bearing meant assembling the whole thing, that's the only way I could feel the play at the wheel (+/- .0025 at the wheel, which is ~.00029 at the bearing inner race)

[t walgamuth]

You can use a three-part, dye penetrant, crack-check method that can be purchased at any machine shop supply, type business.
This is the way I crack checked my alloy wheels in the past.

Thanks keith!

[t walgamuth]

Both my bearing issues had a small amount of play after everything was assembled. David Clubine of Britain West told me of his experience with bad bearings out of the box and, after discussing the situation, we thought it was a likely scenario. My front assembly is a simple stub axle pressed through the inner races with a big nut on the other end. Looking at the upright bore, it looked fine, the bearing was reasonably difficult to press in to the upright, so that didn't seem to indicate the upright. The real tip off was that adding torque on the big nut didn't have any effect on how easy the upright spun around the stub axle, which told me the bearing wasn't being preloaded. After I removed a little material from one of the inner races (where it touches the other inner race), adding torque to the big nut made the upright harder to turn. CAREFUL not to get carried away!
With this test in mind, I started working on the rear. This assembly has two "hubs" that sandwich the inner races, with the outer hub being pressed almost all the way through both inner races. Note that the two hubs should NOT touch in the middle, if they do, then they can't maintain the clamping force on the inner races and the bearing will loose preload. When I went out for my shake down runs, I had a tiny bit of play in the assembly, and ~12 laps turned that into a bit more. This was because the inner hub mating surface to the bearing inner race wasn't quite right so it deformed the inner hub surface a little, which allowed the two hubs to touch, blah, blah, balh. The good part was that the inner hub to bearing interface was deformed enough that it wasn't going to move any more. So, I removed some material from one of the hub surfaces to allow the two hubs to clamp around bearing without touching. Back to the preload check, I assemble the upright, the two hubs and the bearing in the press and confirmed that the upright spun around the "axle" with more resistance as I increased the clamping force (CAREFUL!), confirming the bearing was preloaded. So, long story, hope it helps!

So, yes, if the bearing has too much interference between the two inner races, the assembly will have play. The interference I'm talking about is where the two inner races touch each other, which keeps the the surfaces where the inner and outer balls roll too far apart, so the balls can't be squeezed on to the outer race ball surfaces.

For me, testing the bearing meant assembling the whole thing, that's the only way I could feel the play at the wheel (+/- .0025 at the wheel, which is ~.00029 at the bearing inner race)

So in the end you decided on the rear that there was nothing wrong with the bearing.... but the problem was in the hubs....one of which you removed material from so they did not contact before providing preload to the bearing?

I had a conversation yesterday with Keith Averill and we decided that must be the problem too.

Today I will take it all apart and get my machinist to measure it all carefully to see what the situation is. It looks like we will also need to remove material from one of my hub halves.

Thanhks again, Barry and Keith!

Tom

[Barry Ott]

So in the end you decided on the rear that there was nothing wrong with the bearing.... but the problem was in the hubs....one of which you removed material from so they did not contact before providing preload to the bearing?

Pretty much, but... The shape of the inner race, where it mates with the inner hub, was ultimately the problem. Instead of a very nice transition from the flat on the end of the bearing to the radius that transitions to the inner diameter, there was an "edge", so the hub and the bearing were only touching on that edge, not the flat like it should be. So, the "edge" deformed the inner hub a little until the flat surfaces of both parts were in contact. That small deformation is what allowed the assembly to loosen up.

You've done a good job of condensing my loooonnnngggg story :-)

good luck,
Barry

[t walgamuth]

Pretty much, but... The shape of the inner race, where it mates with the inner hub, was ultimately the problem. Instead of a very nice transition from the flat on the end of the bearing to the radius that transitions to the inner diameter, there was an "edge", so the hub and the bearing were only touching on that edge, not the flat like it should be. So, the "edge" deformed the inner hub a little until the flat surfaces of both parts were in contact. That small deformation is what allowed the assembly to loosen up.

You've done a good job of condensing my loooonnnngggg story :-)

good luck,
Barry

Thanks for the compliment but I probably needed your whole story to understand the problem.

So the radius on the race car hub was nicely rounded and the bearing going aginst it overly square creating a point load which then wallowed out to create no support for the inner and outer races?

And was this problem on both sides of the assembly or just the one side?

One more thing to check.

thanks again, Barry!

Tom

[Barry Ott]

Thanks for the compliment but I probably needed your whole story to understand the problem.

So the radius on the race car hub was nicely rounded and the bearing going aginst it overly square creating a point load which then wallowed out to create no support for the inner and outer races?

And was this problem on both sides of the assembly or just the one side?

One more thing to check.

thanks again, Barry!

Tom

Yep, that was the problem, on just one side of the assembly.

B

[t walgamuth]

Thanks Barry!

[t walgamuth]

We measured the cv bell today with the wheel flange applied and found there is .037 too much space so I dropped it off to a more comprehensive general machine shop to make the reduction.

Hopefully this will resolve the issue....finally.

[t walgamuth]

So he took off the .037 and the hub is installed now. Off to the autocross wars tomorrow!

[kea]

So are you referring to what we discussed ?

[t walgamuth]

Yep.

Thanks for your assistance!

Tom

[t walgamuth]

So I went down to Columbus IN and ran today. Five runs and the wheel bearing is still tight as ever!

Finally!

...course the nose cone fell or was knocked off when I spun it and now will require some fairly extensive repair!

Yikes!