Ewww, brown spots on the lawn.
Ewww, brown spots on the lawn.
Wow, that is amazing. I'd love to have that, run my fingers over it. It is perfect, just look at how green the grass is!! They must use Scotts Turfbuilder. Mine is all dead and brownOriginally Posted by Doug Carter
Hey guys, cold beers for all.Take a break, it's too hot outside to be cranky and hostile towards fellow ApexSpeeders.
If you play nice, you can have more photos of our friend, Kate....
Wait, did you say the B word?
Or here's a cold beer that will make you feel happy. 750 mL @ 10% ABV...
Nothing against you Reid and i dont have a FF dog in this fight but, the quote, "Leaked from the BOD..." in many ways speaks volumes about what is wrong with the goings on across many of the classes. If this test really happened, why was it not released? Why would a BOD member, someone obviously in on the decision making body on whether of not to release it, then leak it?
If true, kudos to the Kent pilot for pedaling that dog around to victory.
Ken
Very valid points. I can't verify it, and as I said, just throwing it out there. They make sense to me with what I felt from the Honda and see on track as well as what Tim and Paul have put out there. Others, they may not. And it wasn't released I'd guess because everyone knows dyno numbers are to open to debate, as we see here. I'd guess this is some information that was used to pick the 29.5.
It was let out by someone who I would guess felt that it was not the right choice or a bad choice over all. I can't say for sure. Why does anyone leak things? Maybe they feel there is a wrong that needs to be righted? Maybe they want attention? Again, up for each to decide what they think. I'm not here to tell anyone how to think, just offer up my experience.
Too hot out?
I heard a story from a friend of mine who is a cop in Milwaukee, that law enforcement is worried about the high temps coming this week. Seems that at the temps go up there is a direct relation to the murder rate. Better turn the AC on before I start busting some caps.
We don't worry about that stuff down here in Houston. Its always hot and I am always carrying.
Ken
What lawn? There's a lawn in that picture?
Reid, I would like to know when that kent won the runoffs. I am calling bs on those numbers. I have both motors, have had both motors in the same car and 2 as close as possible to each other cars with each motor in them and it ain't so.
I have dyno sheets for both my Hondas and they don't avg what you posted, especially not from 4600.
The biggest advantage for the Honda was the ecu adjusted things to make the best hp despite the weather conditions. I know you said Farley had tweaked yours, but no one can match the instantaneous adjustments of the Honda.
What I saw in your video is what I have been saying all along about the differences, the Honda does really well in the draft, but falls flat once you pull out to pass. The rate Tim went by he should have cleared you before the brake zone and it did not happen.
Congratulations to Ethan, he deserved the win.
John
PS this seems to me to be just one more reason why you are running the wrong tires. Just remember, fat bottom girls, they make the rockin world go 'round!
Hey John-
Tim did clear me, by about two car lengths into T5. He was definitely not falling flat when he pulled out. It was only under breaking did I catch back up and get ahead. And on the front straight, he was not yet even in the draft from what I could tell and picked up maybe 20 lengths, but that is hard to tell from the mirrors perspective.
Tires are irrelevant. Tim was on the same, as was Cooper at the Runoffs. I would never run the fat tire on my car. I have been on the skinny tire everywhere since 2009.
Can't say anything more than what was posted about the dyno comparison. I don't know the engine.
And I agree about the Honda self adjusting. That is something that will always be an advantage. I didn't mean to say mine was perfect, but that it was not far off.
PS. I'm not into fat chics, they don't make my world go round. Did you miss the above pictures?
Let's all remember that not all Kent's are created equal, and the average Kent is a pile of crap compared to the current Honda restrictors, both club and F1600 series. I didn't hear too many people complaining about top level Kents whooping up on the average Kent before the Honda was introduced, in fact, I still don't hear it. Why is it ok for a Kent to have 5-10 more horsepower than another Kent, but it's not ok for a Honda to have the same advantage? With the lack of equality amongst the Kents, this is the hand that had to be dealt. I personally think it would be a greater travesty to have the Honda mulling around 10hp off the best Kents. Does it suck to be a person that doesn't have a top level Kent? Yes, it always sucked, but now it sucks a little worse because access to engines that are better to yours just got a lot easier. You don't have to look very hard to see the picture that is painted - in the F1600 series, all the new cars are sporting Hondas. Why bother digging around for a mythical top kent when you can just buy a Honda off the shelf that will compete with it?
I think the club did the right thing by keeping the restrictor smaller than the f1600 restrictor, this helps reduce the number of Kents that are completely obsolete while keeping the Honda competitive.
In the end, the Kent is probably on the way out. Is it sad? Yes. Is it for the better? Maybe. Just think about it, if everyone had a honda, we wouldn't really have to complain about engine parity(Yes, I know SRF and SM people still find ways to complain, just amuse me for a little).
I'd love it if we all had Hondas, sign me up tomorrow. But, the cost is what makes that unrealistic and the economics of it make it a no go for many people. I have been saying it since day one, I WANT A HONDA. Give me one right now and I'll take it to the Runoffs without a doubt. I have no affinity for the Ford, none. I just don't like what it has done and what I see happening.Let's all remember that not all Kent's are created equal, and the average Kent is a pile of crap compared to the current Honda restrictors, both club and F1600 series. I didn't hear too many people complaining about top level Kents whooping up on the average Kent before the Honda was introduced, in fact, I still don't hear it. Why is it ok for a Kent to have 5-10 more horsepower than another Kent, but it's not ok for a Honda to have the same advantage? With the lack of equality amongst the Kents, this is the hand that had to be dealt. I personally think it would be a greater travesty to have the Honda mulling around 10hp off the best Kents. Does it suck to be a person that doesn't have a top level Kent? Yes, it always sucked, but now it sucks a little worse because access to engines that are better to yours just got a lot easier. You don't have to look very hard to see the picture that is painted - in the F1600 series, all the new cars are sporting Hondas. Why bother digging around for a mythical top kent when you can just buy a Honda off the shelf that will compete with it?
I think the club did the right thing by keeping the restrictor smaller than the f1600 restrictor, this helps reduce the number of Kents that are completely obsolete while keeping the Honda competitive.
In the end, the Kent is probably on the way out. Is it sad? Yes. Is it for the better? Maybe. Just think about it, if everyone had a honda, we wouldn't really have to complain about engine parity
The difference between a magical kent and an average pro built kent is like 3 hp at most. Call up Farley, and he will build you an engine very, very close to mine all day long. Lets say mine is 110, he will build a 108 no prob. If one Kent is off 10 hp, I would say that is the difference between a pro built, dynoed engine and a tired engine built in the backyard with no dyno tuning.
The Kent is on the way out, it is old. Nothing wrong with that. Like I said numerous times, things need to change. But, the initial proposal was equal to an average Kent, now we are talking equal to the hottest kent on the planet, in every condition and situation. With this, it is turning a lot of current FF people away. Like you said about obsoleting a lot of Fords, I think that has already happened. I feel that way, and I know others do as well. I know more people that will take these sentiments and go away from the class rather than shell out $20k to convert.
And here is a point I want people to understand. I have had 5 people this year since May say that if the Honda turns out to be what it looks like, they will not come back next year. Count me in for #6. How many new people have come to the class with a Honda that were not there before? In the CenDiv, none.
I hope I am wrong, but I see a large enough amount of people leaving to cause concern. If what people have said turns to be true, the CenDiv FF group will be down 50% next year. Can't speak for other regions.
Last edited by reidhazelton; 06.20.12 at 11:14 PM.
To put it to bed, I'll leave it with this.
I am not speaking because I want and advantage, clearly I am used to having a bit of a disadvantage in a way. I am not doing this because I like Ford, or dislike Honda, or vice versa. Call me a liar, motivated by personal gains, or whatever but it is not why I feel I got involved. If you want to personally attack me, go read the very objective information on Tim and Paul's website and see what they say. They have more time with the Honda than I do for sure. I can't think of a single reason they would say all this for personal gain. Hats off to them.
Why I do speak is because I know of many people who have said they would leave if the writing on the wall was done in permanent ink. It is these people that have supported the class for years, and made it a great class in SCCA with comparatively good car counts with some great racing, at least in the CenDiv. I have not seen enough Hondas to offset the amount of people leaving or who have said they could leave. They are not leaving because they all had super-Kents and lost an advantage, they are leaving because they feel they had good, national Kents and feel they have to convert to stay competitive. FF is a "budget class" and most people are not willing to shell out that much money to convert in club racing.
Also, I am speaking up because there are many others that do not want to subject themselves to this kind of beating. Just from this, my inbox has filled up with several Ford guys saying just that. They don't want to get involved and get attacked, they will just not come back next year.
Maybe I am wrong, only time will tell. But so far, it is not working out and you really can't deny that by the lack of Hondas showing up in club racing. In Cendiv, we have two. Kautz and Bartz, and both were already in the class. So that is a net gain of zero. How many will leave?
It was to be equalized to a very good national, not an average national engine. Anyway, no sense in debating it any further
Hard when people are trying to make points when all the facts are not being taken into consideration. Some have stated that FF attendance is down overall however if we avearge the number of cars in the Pro Series along with SCCA are the total number of FF's down, up or sideways? Also I do hear with the exception of one or two classes that overall participation is down so you must take that into account as well. I do not know these numbers & have asked before when this debate over losing cars comes up.
Let's face it, racing is expensive & will not likely decrease in years to come. The upfront costs for Honda's are out of reach for some but when you plan it over a few years there is a savings or at least many have been able to show there is.
As for Tim putting in a Honda, I am sure some of his reasoning must have come down to realiability after last years Runoff's wouldn't you say? I would also bet after the amount of investment in time over this winter that there might be one or two things they changed to make the car quicker not affect by the engine itself.
Steve Bamford
Time to hang up my Rescue suit and dust off my drivers suit.....
Currently Without Car
[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]Reid,[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]If I were in your shoes I would not race next year either[/FONT][FONT=Calibri].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]I’d be starting the conversion process by locating a junk yard Fit, start selling Kent stuff, [/FONT][FONT=Calibri]ebay[/FONT][FONT=Calibri] the fit parts I don’t need and return in 2014 with a conversion[/FONT][FONT=Calibri].[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]If FF is the class you like, it’s not going anywhere. Sitting out a year is a blip in time if you’re hooked on this stuff[/FONT][FONT=Calibri].[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][FONT=Calibri]I bailed on FF too early. If I still had my VD when talk of the Honda started I would not have sold it and I’d now be pounding around not thinking about how much time I was putting on my engine[/FONT][FONT=Calibri].[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]Just my 2 cents. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]Jim[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Last edited by Jim Nash; 06.21.12 at 1:04 PM.
In my days of engineering and running race teams, the actions in the video above was called drafting!! When one is a bit short on power this can accomplished so, maybe the Piper was a bit short on power and used the draft to motor up!
Have to look on both sides of the fence.
Just and observation!!
or .... he could take his very good kent, his good relationship with his engine builder, his tire sponsorship, help from his other supporters, and go have fun racing in the only growing open-wheel class on the continent.
Hondas at 30.5 are not exactly dominating FF racing. Tim won at MO and a FIT won a rain race at Atlanta. No FITs have won in Ontario or Quebec (including Newey or Grist). Its time to enjoy a class with a future.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Fantastic thread!
Being a Ford guy, I hate the idea of a Honda. Being a budget racer, I love the Honda. Mike Scanlan told me at Lime Rock in May that he has 5,000 race miles on his Honda and hasn't had it out of the car. How can you argue against that? Sure, it might suck to put $20K into a car worth $10K (remember boys, I run a 93VD Monoshock), but spending $2-4K per year on rebuilds / freshenings isn't any better.
The wound from Honda is still fresh and Ford (or any other manufacturer) hasn't given us a band-aid yet. Hopefully, within the next 2 years, the price of Hondas will come down as more will be available and Ford/Chevy/Toyota (?) will step up.
"The winner ain't the one with the fastest car, it's the one who refuses to lose." - Dale Earnhardt Sr.
I seem to remember a KENT winning the f1600 series crown last year...
Last edited by anthonywill3; 06.21.12 at 3:34 PM. Reason: spelling
Our Take Away
Our take away thus far and a reply to a few comments from above:
You are right, a lot has been done to the car over the winter, but to imply that our performance is due to:
A head surround - aero
A new bead seat - comfort
Lengthening the chassis/body (weight) to accommodate a very tall driver - comfort
New Bell Housing – weight and balance
Smaller battery - weight
Paint - vanity
Is not completely right. We still roll across the scales like every other car and our weight is close and legal at just over 1100 lbs. There are many of you on the post who what me to say that we made the CAR that much faster over the winter to compensate for a lacking Honda power plant, this just isn't true. Look, its simple, the Honda is really close and very good with the 30.5. We were unsure about the 30.5mm at RA as written on our website but it performed just as it did at Mid Ohio. Its not just the cup holder or the running boards we added, its the engine, and its good.
We are pretty sure that the aero got a little better by removing the side Kent air intake, but we replaced it with Honda intake over Tim’s head that is about the same opening size with a little less drag. The car has more overall surface area due to lengthening the frame and body parts, which added weight. The head surround closes up the cockpit and on a track like RA, it has to make a difference. How much? we don’t know. Reid’s Video fast? I doubt it. Also we are giving the benefit of the doubt that Reid, Ruberner, Cooper, Ruedisueli, Carpenter, Shippert and others have TOP National engines as we did.
The most significant thing that was a side note to all of the work performed was the redistribution of the finished weight. It changed, but you already know this, as do many others who adjust constantly to make their cars balance better. The Honda has a high center of gravity vs. the Kent, we made every attempt to adjust for this. As a minimum objective, we wanted the weight to be equal to or better then the very good Piper we stated with.
From what I read in the above post, there are a few of you who are wishing to convenice the Apex audience that placing a 30.5mm Honda in your car will result in a slower or noncompetitive car to the Kent, you are very wrong. The Honda with a 30.5 is very competitive and it can hold its own and win against the TOP National Kent's that we have run against this year. It’s not conclusive, (we reserve the right to change our opinion) and we are still comparing. We are not sitting around scratching our heads wondering why LCIII walked away from us at the end of the straights at MO, he’s a great driver with a great car who we respect and are challenged by his ability. We want to compete against the driver not the advantage an engine choice supplies. This is the main reason why we are writing about our experiences on our website and in hopes that a closer parity within the FF Class is achieved. We made a calculated choice to move to the Honda and its our bed to make, in fact Its like sleeping with a frugal super model instead of heavy, demanding old farm girl.
We love the new Honda, all for the many reasons that have been posted all over the Apex website. And YES, new life in the class is present and good. (in Robinson’s words this is our “shill” of the day comment about Honda and all the good it is) The fact is, we loved our Kent (ford “shill”) but after rebuilding more then our fair share of them, a switch was needed to stay in step with the direction the FF Class is moving. This, in direct reflect to the F1600 Series and SCCA and their clear direction and wishes. These bodies make the rules we race under, we just play by them.
For those of you that have raced against Tim, know that he’s a quick study, the new Honda has forced Tim to relearn 6 years of driving style of the Kent and the balance the original Piper had. Blackhawk and Mid Ohio being our first times out and we did great. RA was a strong test of the Honda, limited but a test just the same. We will be back for the CAT and hope to make it repeatable and build on the new package.
We respect the many individuals out there: Josh, Tim Wise, Reid, JRII (corrected), Bam Bam, Frog, they demonstrate a wide range of skill, understanding and intellect. What ever approach you choose to evaluate the Kent/Honda issue is your own choice. There are many opinions posted that seem to purport that they have the proper answers. OK, lets all listen to them, because we don’t have the answers. We don’t want an argument we would like a conversation that leads to answers. This whole topic switches to a contentious banter faster then sh#t threw a goose. The Continental Class (F2000) was challenged with this very, two engine ( Zetec and Pinto) topic. And still, there are those who spit fire about the topic. Facts are facts, results are results.
You don’t have to like what we have found, and you can try to dispel the findings, but its the best comparison of a TOP (not GOOD) National car and driver so far. ( JRII (corrected) will argue the point )
Sure, we carry away unanswered questions, Why are we turning lap times as fast or faster then the Kent? Has Tim gotten that much better over the winter sitting on the couch? Why do I wakeup wearing a pony halter? Have the improvements made us faster? Why did the president intervene in the Holder hearings? Why were we beating the 31mm last year with our Kent?
For us (dollars aside) It comes down to this, “We want to compete against the driver not the advantage an engine choice supplies”. We further feel that its the organizing body (SCCA, F1600 Series) that holds the bag for making the competition fair and even. They need to know what is truly happening on track (empirical data) and use the opportunity to turn a national deterrent into a national attraction.
The goal is to build the FF Class.
With all due respect
Paul
Kautz Racing
Www.kautzracing.com
Last edited by pwd911s; 06.21.12 at 6:36 PM.
Reid, this is even more of the perception problem. I too am not into fat chics. There is a MAJOR difference between fat bottom and FAT chics. have you ever heard of Freddy Mercury and Queen? Maybe it is an age thing...
You also did not get what I meant by the tire comment, Ethan did not have to make adjustments to switch to rains because they are the same size as the dry tires.
John
PS based on what you said your yearly budget is, I would suspect that there is more than that in Tim's gearbox alone. Very hard to say it is just engine.
Also shame on Tim if he had you by 2 lengths and lost it under braking.. That is not the guy I raced against last year
Freddie Mercury was definitely not into fat bottom girls.
or skinny bottom girls, but he would have appreciated the brown spots on the lawn, ewww.
Paul, just for the record, it is JR2 and LC3. And just like you stated, we all play by the rules made by others. My decision last year, having both powerplants available in comparable cars, was MY kent was/is better than MY honda.
I now have a Honda in a new more modern chassis, but also have a kent in my now cracked and broken tube free db-6. Which will I choose to campaign? Dunno, cant and wont answer till the new car is fully sorted.
I am now done with this nonsense. Opinions are like brown spot makers, everyone has one and the only thing they are good for is making more brown spots.
Lets race
john
correction
Noted and corrected, Thanks!
Since when is racing more fun than mindlessly yelling at each other on the internet?
Very much agree having to look at both sides, and be objective. My view is that I don't get a tow that far back, ever. The draft comes in only when you are less than 10 lengths maybe, give or take.
Thanks for your comments, Jim. In a better situation, I would do just that as I would much rather have a Honda, even with a 30mm. However, it may look like taking a year off is the answer. Let me explain a bit more.
Here is why I do not see the taking a year off scenario working for me, and likely others. First, taking a year off in order to race in the future just seems counter to the whole idea in the first place. I can race right now, but to remain competitive I have to take a year off?
Second, it would be much more than a year off, likely 3. So, lets say I can find a sucker to buy the boat anchor Kent, for $5k (which I feel is very generous figure if it is even sellable). That would leave at least a absolute minimum of $15k to cover. At about $8k a year the best is two years off if no other expenses occur, which we all know will happen when building a car.
Also, I spend on average $1500 a year in engine expense. At a $15k investment that is a minimum 10 year time frame before I even brake even. Oh wait, will a Honda go 10 years? Doubt it. Figure two crate engines in that time so that is at least another $5k. That is about 3 more years. So now, we are looking at 13 years before it is even economically beneficial at the absolute best case scenario!!!!!! If you go the boneyard route, we are still talking 11 years. And I have worked in auto collision repair for a while and know what comes out of junkyards....junk. I wouldnt want to risk a junkyard engine.
Take a minimum of two years off, or wait 13 years to break even. For me, neither of those are real interesting.
Just the way I see it from my couch.
One could probably make a better argument that a 92 VD is not competitive than a Kent is not competitive. What was your best lap time at RA again?
I would agree.
So either your package isn't obsolete or you are a stone cold mother****er behind the wheel. Happy First World Problems.
I'd say neither, but the obsolete part I see coming true pretty soon.
One cloudy day does not necessarily mean the sky is falling.
Thanks for the reply. I am not going to try to dissect and/or dispute your numbers. Too many variables. It seems like a lot of rounding up but I can't really say. Hopefully you will continue to race FF but given your take on finacing a conversion it might be best to bail now.Thanks for your comments, Jim. In a better situation, I would do just that as I would much rather have a Honda, even with a 30mm. However, it may look like taking a year off is the answer. Let me explain a bit more.
Here is why I do not see the taking a year off scenario working for me, and likely others. First, taking a year off in order to race in the future just seems counter to the whole idea in the first place. I can race right now, but to remain competitive I have to take a year off?
Second, it would be much more than a year off, likely 3. So, lets say I can find a sucker to buy the boat anchor Kent, for $5k (which I feel is very generous figure if it is even sellable). That would leave at least a absolute minimum of $15k to cover. At about $8k a year the best is two years off if no other expenses occur, which we all know will happen when building a car.
Also, I spend on average $1500 a year in engine expense. At a $15k investment that is a minimum 10 year time frame before I even brake even. Oh wait, will a Honda go 10 years? Doubt it. Figure two crate engines in that time so that is at least another $5k. That is about 3 more years. So now, we are looking at 13 years before it is even economically beneficial at the absolute best case scenario!!!!!! If you go the boneyard route, we are still talking 11 years. And I have worked in auto collision repair for a while and know what comes out of junkyards....junk. I wouldnt want to risk a junkyard engine.
Take a minimum of two years off, or wait 13 years to break even. For me, neither of those are real interesting.
Just the way I see it from my couch.
Jim
I tired to be conservative on those numbers, but yes, many variables both ways.
And an issue with those looking to sell, is that Ford cars have little value. Seems they are looked at conversion projects and not race ready cars anymore.
Reid, if one of your Kent rebuilds ends up costing you closer $4-5K, which we all know can happen, that changes the equation quite a bit. Still a relatively long-term payoff and probably not the primary reason for the conversion. I think some people just like the idea of a more modern, EFI engine. Coming from FV, I sure would!
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Agree 100%, that is a variable for sure. I have only done two rebuilds in 4 years, and it averaged out to about $1500 a year. Give or take, it can change of course. I do know the next one will need to be sleeved, so add $600 to the next bill right off the bat.Reid, if one of your Kent rebuilds ends up costing you closer $4-5K, which we all know can happen, that changes the equation quite a bit. Still a relatively long-term payoff and probably not the primary reason for the conversion. I think some people just like the idea of a more modern, EFI engine. Coming from FV, I sure would!
At least we don't burn oil like FvsI can't count how many tear offs I have used with being on track with Vees.
Thanks to Paul and Reid for providing data points and observations that should be useful to people, like me, trying to sort out their next steps.
On the other hand, we could use a lot fewer decibels in the responses. Condescending, sarcastic, and personal remarks don't help me, at least, in the sorting out process. I've long felt that part of the attraction of racing in this class is people like Marc Blanc towing me around RA or him and Andy Kilcoyne pointing out what I could do better or Bill Valet unsolicited offering to watch my video to help me improve.
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