June Sprints Report?

[reidhazelton]

Perhaps, but I would not be so quick to discount Piper top end aero.

I am not at all, I know it is slippery. That hit home when I was sitting on grid behind Cliff Johnson's waiting for a Q session last year. I remember looking in the back of the side through the radiator and being able to see the grid worker 100 feet up. I figured if I could see though it, the air must have no problem passing through the rad.

But, Cliff nor Tim would walk me like that before, and neither do DB-6s. Cooper didn't smoke me that bad during the Runoffs race either.

My car might be a turd, but it's not a Gemini Club Ford either.

And I do have the track record at a 2:21.053 in the same car so I think it is capable.

[reidhazelton]

Not to mention top end speed and corner speed are highly interdependent. p=mv

No kidding, everyone knows that - even noobs in driver school know that.

If that was the only factor, by that theory, I should have had more top end speed then.

[starkejt]

All I'm saying is just because his car seems faster now as viewed in your mirror does not imply his motor is now better than yours. It MIGHT imply his new motor is better than his last one, but certainly not by any scientific measure. It might also imply 10 other things that may be different on his car now or even your car (i.e. was your speed trace off from normal, etc etc). I agree there is no point in a debate, but there is also no point in drawing hard conclusions from how you observed him gaining on you on one particular day.

[TimW]

No kidding, everyone knows that - even noobs in driver school know that.

If that was the only factor, by that theory, I should have had more top end speed then.

So then don't proclaim it as being a motor issue like you (unfactually) posited.

[reidhazelton]

All I'm saying is just because his car seems faster now as viewed in your mirror does not imply his motor is now better than yours. It MIGHT imply his new motor is better than his last one, but certainly not by any scientific measure. It might also imply 10 other things that may be different on his car now or even your car (i.e. was your speed trace off from normal, etc etc). I agree there is no point in a debate, but there is also no point in drawing hard conclusions from how you observed him gaining on you on one particular day.

I agree. Just saying my observation. Like I said, draw your own conclusion on what changed and straigthline speed differences.

[starkejt]

My conclusion is that there is insufficient data (in this thread) to make a conclusion, other than the officials at this race can suck it.

[reidhazelton]

So then don't proclaim it as being a motor issue like you (unfactually) posited.

Gee, didn't know you were there? I was there, in the car, with a birds eye view. That is fact. I don't need a math degree or engineer to tell me someone has more motor on me. We are not sending man to Mars here, its FF. Car A comes out of corner with a 20 length lead, and faster than Car B. Car B wins race to end of straightaway. Car B at very least has equal motor, likely more.

Paul and Tim both have said what they think, and that is backed up with how the car performs on track. Simple. I agree with their statements. Go argue with them if you want to debate numbers.

Bartz said the same thing to me (sorry to rope you in Jeffrey) about the straight line at Brainard. Big long straight, against Scotty. Bartz would pull a length or two on Scotty on the straights. Wanna debate a Citation's aero efficiency??

I don't know why I even bother....

As some know, this will likely be my last year in FF. Can't afford to convert and for the cost of a new car FF is not where I would spend my money. FB, FC, FE... Shame that a class that I really liked I got dollared out overnight.

[reidhazelton]

My conclusion is that there is insufficient data (in this thread) to make a conclusion, other than the officials at this race can suck it.

Touche.

[reidhazelton]

Fact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=640w1...ature=youtu.be

Look where I pull away...in and out of the corners. Look where he gains...staights.

I can't believe I am posting video and opening myself to the crap people get when they post video. Must be the 98* heat today...

There is always going to be variables. All cars, drivers, tracks, temps are different all the time. But, has anyone converted to a Honda and went slower?? Nope. I don't think you will get a better comparison than between me and Tim. Throw Scotty and Cooper in the race, maybe that would be better yet.

I know I don't have a Ford engine in my car by choice. My mind is made up. Doubt Tim converted because he wants to go slower.

[starkejt]

You're obviously convinced, so why keep beating your head against the wall?

[TimW]

Gee, didn't know you were there? I was there, in the car, with a birds eye view. That is fact. I don't need a math degree or engineer to tell me someone has more motor on me. We are not sending man to Mars here, its FF. Car A comes out of corner with a 20 length lead, and faster than Car B. Car B wins race to end of straightaway. Car B at very least has equal motor, likely more.

Its really not very hard to call bullsh*t from 2000 miles when your logic is so full of omissions. Your observation does not have how fast the car behind was in the previous corner nor how much earlier they went to full throttle than you. There are too many variables to draw conclusions from your observation point given the engines are close. The engines are very close, perhaps better in some places and and worse in others, but definitely not the same. As close as its going to get and as Josh said, its not constructive discussion.

You're on the podium on most every race you enter, why not be a little gracious in what you've accomplished overperformaning with the equipment you have than constantly pander to the board as a victim. Its getting tiring.

[reidhazelton]

You're obviously convinced, so why keep beating your head against the wall?

The concussions must be limiting my decision making.

Here is why:

When this started, I was in favor of the Honda. I did not sign the petitions going around against it and I was excited a new engine was coming as long as it was introduced how it was proposed. Now we are talking making it equal to the hottest Kent on the planet, two different things. I am the first to look to the future, and I know that things have to change eventually. But the way it is going I do not personally view as good for the short term health of the class, and maybe not even the long term.

I am concerned because I really, really like the class. The way the cars move around under you, the size of the fields (not so much this year) and the history of it is what I want to be part of. Formula Ford is something even novice race fans know. I like the people, and I hate to have to leave the class. For me, I was a kid out of college that bought a car for sub $20k with spares and went on to develop it and compete for a national championship in two years. I see this changing, and being even father away from the good old days of FF. A Honda car - you can not touch for under $35k for the most part. If that is what you need to win, or even if that is the perception, the class will hurt. I was approached by a guy this weekend who asked me what I thought of the Honda and if he should convert. I like to think I am objective, and fair. I told him that if he likes the class and has the money he should do it. He then went on to tell me his situation. He said (Not a direct quote but you get the jist)....

"I paid $32k for my car, and it sold for that much twice before I bought it. I can't do that kind of conversion work so I got a few quotes to do it for around $20k at best from a few shops. I know I can't get much for the Kent now. So I would at best have $52k in the car. Why would I do that, I would go buy a new Piper for that. But, then why should I spend that in FF? For that money I will go to FE, FB, FC, FM, or even get an older FA."

That is what I am afraid of. People leaving the class. I know there are some that will leave because they are unable to afford a conversion. Now I see a point of view where guys who can afford to are not willing to. I think more will leave for those reasons than those who will not come because the engine is not fuel injected. I was the kid when I came to FF, I did not care it was carb/points engine. Clearly, the new flock of cars has not shown up as we hoped it would in SCCA. If anything, some Ford guys have went away. Sure, there are other factors to participation numbers, like the economy, but that has been in the tank for a while. This year is the first year it seems numbers are this down. We had only 11 FFs for the Sprints. For me, I will be gone next year if I can not win with a Ford. That seems to me the likely situation.

I am now a little nervous to jump all in the Honda Pool, if anything, I am sitting on the beach for fear of drowning. Look at FC, they are starting to grumble about Zetec availability. The price for Zetec cars is still higher than the price for an FC before the introduction. How long will FFHonda prices stay up? Is this the new cost of FF? I hope not.

And look at the atmosphere now. No one is happy. Ford guys are mad, Honda guys are mad, guys in the middle are mad. It is not a happy class anymore, what is it...FM now?? All we have to do is accuse each other of cheating and have people ram each other on cool down laps and we are there. We can't even have a post about the June Sprints or anything for that matter, without it becoming a heated Honda/Ford debate. Paul and Tim express their findings very openly and objectively, and I applaud them for that. Don't hate on them because you don't like their experience.

So that is why I continue to beat my head on the wall, I just don't see the benefits that we all hoped we would see.

[reidhazelton]

Its really not very hard to call bullsh*t from 2000 miles when your logic is so full of omissions. Your observation does not have how fast the car behind was in the previous corner nor how much earlier they went to full throttle than you. There are too many variables to draw conclusions from your observation point given the engines are close. The engines are very close, perhaps better in some places and and worse in others, but definitely not the same. As close as its going to get and as Josh said, its not constructive discussion.

You're on the podium on most every race you enter, why not be a little gracious in what you've accomplished overperformaning with the equipment you have than constantly pander to the board as a victim. Its getting tiring.

Because there are others in my boat. Victum? Never said that but thanks for putting words in my mouth. Pander? I wrote one letter in 4 years, objectively stating my position in hopes that it would speak for those who are also in my boat. Pander...funny.

What is really getting tiring is how you jump on anyone who has anything to say other than what you feel about the Honda. This is why I stay out of this crap.

So because I do well I have no place to share my views? When was the last time you were even in an FF? I have more right to state my views than you as far as I know.

And you don't need to see all that data crap. The track was slow, very, very slow. Paul said it, and the lap times in every class said that. Yet, Tim was as fast as ever and during the start of the race at least, his speed was not coming out of the corners.

Why don't you go rag on Paul and Tim and get off my back? They are saying the same things I am.

[reidhazelton]

And my big point of the day, other Ford guys are not as vocal here because they don't want to deal with all this smoke and mirrors, blame, and ridicule crap that they would get.

[starkejt]

I wouldn't hate on Paul or Tim. I like both of them. I just don't see any scientific basis to conclude one engine is better than the other. I only see the possibility that Kautz had superior acceleration to yours. It COULD be that is motor is better than yours. It COULD also be a combination of eleventy different things. Maybe you weren't jetted perfectly, maybe his car has less aero drag, maybe he gets to full throttle a tick sooner, maybe his driveline is more efficient than yours, maybe this, maybe that.

I am the type that is not going to believe object A is bigger than object B no matter how obvious it may look from where you are sitting. You are going to have to measure it carefully, and you are going to have to defend the validity of your measuring instrument and your method.

[TimW]

What is really getting tiring is how you jump on anyone who has anything to say other than what you feel about the Honda. This is why I stay out of this crap.

No, thats not my position at all. I've never said the Honda was going to make all the people happy all of the time. There are going to be some people it helps, and some it won't. Obviously, with a 92VD you're in the latter lot. But I will call bullsh*t when its being spouted.

Your victim tone on this board since 2009 is what is tiring. I have no insight to what you wrote to the BOD or CRB and its none of my business. But show some grace here and act like an adult.

And, by the way, I was in my car last weekend. At Laguna Seca. And Thurderhill earlier this spring, Laguna Seca last fall, Mid Ohio last summer. But I guess you're faster than me, so I shouldn't have a voice in the discussion it sounds. Thanks buddy.

[BWC54]

And look at the atmosphere now. No one is happy. Ford guys are mad, Honda guys are mad, guys in the middle are mad. It is not a happy class anymore

I'm happy

[reidhazelton]

I wouldn't hate on Paul or Tim. I like both of them. I just don't see any scientific basis to conclude one engine is better than the other. I only see the possibility that Kautz had superior acceleration to yours. It COULD be that is motor is better than yours. It COULD also be a combination of eleventy different things. Maybe you weren't jetted perfectly, maybe his car has less aero drag, maybe he gets to full throttle a tick sooner, maybe his driveline is more efficient than yours, maybe this, maybe that.

I am the type that is not going to believe object A is bigger than object B no matter how obvious it may look from where you are sitting. You are going to have to measure it carefully, and you are going to have to defend the validity of your measuring instrument and your method.

I agree and respect that.

For me, the straight line speed difference was to large to be anything but engine. Mine was very good, Farley was working on it all weekend. Sure, a bunch of small things help and contribute, but we all know how important a good motor is at RA. That is where I feel the difference is. We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's cool.

[starkejt]

Let's not fight. Everyone leave this thread for 10 minutes or so and Google Kate Upton's latest GQ photo shoot. If she saved the Delta Wing thread, this one should be no problem.

[reidhazelton]

No, thats not my position at all. I've never said the Honda was going to make all the people happy all of the time. There are going to be some people it helps, and some it won't. Obviously, with a 92VD you're in the latter lot. But I will call bullsh*t when its being spouted.

Your victim tone on this board since 2009 is what is tiring. I have no insight to what you wrote to the BOD or CRB and its none of my business. But show some grace here and act like an adult.

And, by the way, I was in my car last weekend. At Laguna Seca. And Thurderhill earlier this spring, Laguna Seca last fall, Mid Ohio last summer. But I guess you're faster than me, so I shouldn't have a voice in the discussion it sounds. Thanks buddy.

Last I heard you sold your car, that is why I said "as far as i know." I was wrong.

Victum tone? So then you are the bully? You started it. Don't make me get my mom.

Performance has nothing to do with having a voice. Keep putting words in my mouth so I have to argue reality than the actual point. Isn't there an old law school saying, if you are innocent focus on reality. If you are guilty, wave your arms and argue the sky is purple and Earth is the center of the universe.

The reason I am speaking up is because many are not interested in getting into the ugliness.

...I'm not your buddy.

[reidhazelton]

Let's not fight. Everyone leave this thread for 10 minutes or so and Google Kate Upton's latest GQ photo shoot. If she saved the Delta Wing thread, this one should be no problem.

Wanna hug?

What if I put on a Kate Upton mask? My body might not be as nice but some airbrushing will fix that.

Or what if I wear a Kate Upton mask while I type? Yeah, that should do it.

[reidhazelton]

Your victim tone on this board since 2009 is what is tiring. I have no insight to what you wrote to the BOD or CRB and its none of my business. But show some grace here and act like an adult.

Go back to the Runoffs thread from 2009 when the DB1 was first out. I was in favor.

I'll never act like an adult, that's disgusting.

[starkejt]

Ok, I just texted her, and I'm pretty sure she is disappointed you are still fighting. Her reply is quoted below:

"This is Ms. Upton's attorney. If you do not stop harassing her via SMS, I will have no choice but to ask the Sheriff's Dept. to enforce the restraining order."

Reading between the lines, I think it's clear that she wants everyone here to get along, and also she missed me hanging out in the bushes outside her window last night. I will carve her name in my arm in effort to smooth things over.

[reidhazelton]

Ok, I just texted her, and I'm pretty sure she is disappointed you are still fighting. Her reply is quoted below:

"This is Ms. Upton's attorney. If you do not stop harassing her via SMS, I will have no choice but to ask the Sheriff's Dept. to enforce the restraining order."

Reading between the lines, I think it's clear that she wants everyone here to get along, and also she missed me hanging out in the bushes outside her window last night. I will carve her name in my arm in effort to smooth things over.

I sent her my ear, so your gesture will do nothing to swoon her.

[reidhazelton]

Leaked from the BOD.... No, I won't name the source I'm not an idiot, just call him Deep Throat.

"Runoffs winning Kent vs honda fit tested (30.5mm restrictor) on the same dyno by the CRB

Avg Hp 4600 to 6800 rpm
Kent 103.67
Honda 111.08

Avg torque 4600 to 6800 rpm
Kent 100.43
Honda 103.09"

And that's about all I have to say about that.

I'm out...

[Tom Valet]

Good to hear from you...are you thinking of coming over to the dark side? We have parts for sale, cheap.

Paul
Kautz Racing

Www.kautzracing.com

The funny thing is, as much as we love having Honda in the class and as hard as we supported getting the Fit approved, for some reason we are having trouble letting go of the Kent.

Part of it is that we think having both engines battle against each other is great for the class and that it would be a shame for the Kents to disappear from the National scene.

Part of it is that in six years with our Swifts we never had a single engine problem with our Kents, not a single DNF.

So we are really torn about what to do. We have been talking it over and will decide soon what we are going to do.

BTW, in all the hoopla about Ethan winning and Reid getting screwed over, your team's 2d place finish somehow got overlooked. Congrats, must be nice to see that all the hard work over the winter is paying off.

What's next for you guys? Will you be doing any of the Pro Series races now that the car is done?

Take care.

Tom

[BWC54]

Leaked from the BOD.... No, I won't name the source I'm not an idiot, just call him Deep Throat.

"Runoffs winning Kent vs honda fit tested (30.5mm restrictor) on the same dyno by the CRB

Avg Hp 4600 to 6800 rpm
Kent 103.67
Honda 111.08

Avg torque 4600 to 6800 rpm
Kent 100.43
Honda 103.09"

And that's about all I have to say about that.

I'm out...

Having both, I think that's a load of crap.

[reidhazelton]

Having driven both, I don't.

[starkejt]

Sorry, but those numbers are meaningless. They raise many questions and answer none. For starters, reporting them to 0.01 hp/ftlbs? If someone only has a tape measure and tells me something is 3.1576" long, I pretty much have stopped listening to them somewhere between the 1 and the 5.

[reidhazelton]

Sorry, but those numbers are meaningless. They raise many questions and answer none. For starters, reporting them to 0.01 hp/ftlbs? If someone only has a tape measure and tells me something is 3.1576" long, I pretty much have stopped listening to them somewhere between the 1 and the 5.

Could be, but I know who sent that to me to be pretty dang reputable. Suppose it is possible the person who sent them to me is just jerking me around, but they never have and have actually been very open with me in the past.

Just throwing it out there since this person said I could.

[starkejt]

Just avg hp/tq over that particular range also seems deceptive. I can think of many other issues with those numbers by themselves. The identity/reputation of the source is not relevant where numbers are concerned even if this person is being genuine, IMO. Ad hominem works both ways.

[tstarke4]

So does ad baculum.

[starkejt]

What does Quantum Leap have to do with anything?

[reidhazelton]

If you guys are going to get all brainy and rational there is no room for you here.

[starkejt]

Lets talk more about Kate Upton's giant brains.

[reidhazelton]

I dig brainy chics.

[RobLav]

Kate sure is a looker.... but back to engines, as Josh said and what caught my eye, the "average HP and average" torque over a 2000 RPM range is not a good measure of performance.

Next time you get stopped for speeding at 80 MPH, you can tell the cop that your average speed over the past two hours was under the legal limit. See if that flies!

[starkejt]

Her brain looks awesome in the translucent white T shirt.

[reidhazelton]

Cold brains are better. Ice cream headache?

[dc]

Hey guys, cold beers for all. Take a break, it's too hot outside to be cranky and hostile towards fellow ApexSpeeders.

If you play nice, you can have more photos of our friend, Kate...