Maybe my rant was unclear. I know it was a hastily written rant at best. That very person on my video was the one who I talked to after being put in the penalty box and denied, then argued about what he said and the rule book.Originally Posted by Tom Valet
And Tom, I could not have said it better in your previous post about mistakes. Spot on!
I read all this thread in one pass. So excuse if i missed something.
Is there a difference between "Go to the pits" and "Go to your paddock" ?
I never read (nor heard on the video) where they said "go to your paddock"... Just saying. May be a language issue.
All that said. After being on Apexspeed for over 12 years, and reading the stories year after year. Can't figure out why a FF would go to the Sprints.
I remember Rand mentioning when he put on the FF40th with Steve, something about how great the Milwaukee Region was.
Of course being very biased, I loved Wren's earlier post.
[This was a paid political announcement paid for by myself.]
This is what I hear on the audio, very clearly:I read all this thread in one pass. So excuse if i missed something.
Is there a difference between "Go to the pits" and "Go to your paddock" ?
I never read (nor heard on the video) where they said "go to your paddock"... Just saying. May be a language issue.
"Chief steward has given permission, if you want to go to your paddock and change your tires, you can go change your tires."
I'm deaf in one ear . . . so I listened 3-4 times, closely.
But on the other hand I agree about Milwaukee Region. The best. I am biased . . . but still.
Assuming my bad ear isn't translating "pit" to "paddock," some Chicago officials should read this thread and listen to Reid's audio. Mistakes happen, yes, but they happen less if they are acknowledged and dealt with.
I was sitting in the pit box already when he said that. He said and meant paddock. Pretty sure he told Brandon Dixon and Jamie Stiehr the same as they were in time out with me.
Not only does the audio say "paddock" but my crew was told that cars were okayed to go to their paddock to change tires. No audio on that.
Jamie, I am 99% sure, ran over the 15 minute time limit - did not return to paddock.
WHOA!!!!!
It is exactly the attitude being shown in this post that is an example of what these guys are griping about - a BIG mistake is made, and the people of the region make excuses or red herring redirection to what happens elsewhere instead of apologizing. I'll give the Chief Steward credit for apologizing after the fact, but if the posts are correct, the attitudes of some of those working the pit lane needs some serious adjustment.
I'll give the Chief Steward some slack in that it sounds like he (she?) did indeed give paddock permission, communicated it on down the line, and got back to doing what they could to control a lousy weather situation. It is those under the CS who need a refresher course, both on the rule book, but also on making sure that permissions like this are communicated to everyone in pit lane correctly, and just as importantly, that when a competitor questions a worker that an a$$hole attitude is not copped.
This sort of stuff is another of many reasons that racers are going elsewhere for their kicks.
Reid got screwed
I had a situation last your in the pits at the Fall Sprints at Blackhawk. I was told to go to the paddock for a oil leak that consisted of a coupple oil drops on me floor pan. I went to the tower quite pissed and spoke to the same chief Steward. She handles the situation very well. I know this is a club but aren't the drivers really the customers? The amount of $$$ that Reid spent to get to that race and be in situation to say I WON THE SPRINTS....then have it pulled away from him would be hard to swallow
I won't have to swallow that, they stuck it up somewhere else. I haven't went to the bathroom since.
OK, turned off the TV and listened to the video again. "paddock".
Not trying to compare Rand's series to club, but it happens. What is possible in Rand's series, that may not be affordable to the club, is that every Series official has a radio (even if it is not a "talker"). It really cuts down on confusion. Takes a lot less hand signals, whistles, etc. Rand has the Chief Steward in the tower, but sort of acts as the race steward himself. In that vein, he rapidily gets to wherever the issue is. But, let me acknowledge that there is a big difference between running a one class run group and a mixed class run group. Also, Rand has worked with the same staff event-to-event for almost seven years. The Club has it harder in many aspects. All that said, every official at least being able to listen to Control on a radio sure cuts down on communications issues during chaotic moments. Regions just can't afford the number of radios for all the volunteers.
To be frank, in the pro Series you wouldn't get to go to your paddock. It would be expected you had crew and tires in the pits. Also, with time-certain scheduling at most pro events, the horrid weather would have probably wiped out the race, unless the track came forward with a repreive in scheduling. So credit to the Club for trying to save the race.
I give the steward much good credit for allowing competitors to go to their paddocks because of the "club" nature of the event.That is a sign that the Club is becoming more user friendly. Looks like, through a mix-up in communications, it was a case of "no good deed, goes unpunished." The apology after the race was also a class act that may never have happened a few years ago.
Damn it Reid
That sux OUT LOUD! So sorry for the situation you had to endure...
One thing I absolutely ABHOR is being bossed around. At last years Sprints we came in post race and I about got screamed at by a grid person to pull forward 10 more feet.
Not screamed at as in talking really loud so I could hear them over my engine running, rather the angst ridden kind of screaming.
In ANY other setting I'da calmly walked up to the offender and basically told them to STFU, only my Dad ever got to talk to me like that and he's been gone like 15 years!
I try to be as gentlemanly at the track as possible. I find it keeps me out of trouble with the powers that be, but then I get to write a Coop Chronicle, and the real healing can then start to take place.
Chin up, Killa!
GC
Unfortunately it's not an SCCA problem exclusively. I love and appreciate the volunteers that allow us to do this year after year - I've spent a few days flagging and I don't know how they can do it. It's HARD work for sure.
But every now and then, you run into the guys who suddenly feel they have POWER and, worse yet, HAVE to use their power. When I think of the volunteers, I want to treat them as friends, I want to appreciate what they do and want them to enjoy being around me. I don't believe there is any excuse to be stuck up and condescending.
Very sorry about what happened at the Sprints, but congrats to Ethan! From what I hear, it was well deserved
Wow.....this is amazing to me. Just think if there was a purse to win...............you would see some true colors!
This is sort of like when Tony George owned Indy. It's a great race, a fabulous venue, we all want to participate and take a shot at the top step but...
Chicago Region has historically had management problems at the biggest event they put on. I've never met Reid but I sure sympathize with his situation and he has no real recourse. The CS can apologize all he or she wants but the damage is done and it was not necessary. I believe it is the responsibility of the CS to know the rulebook better than the competitors and be in charge of the volunteers in a manner that results in a fair opportunity for the competitors. Too bad that did not happen this year.
Will Chicago Region take a deep breath and admit there is a problem? I sure hope so.
In Response to Perfect Racing
Just wanted to clarify a few points. Dennis Valet, I agree with your response to my post 100%. It was clearly going to rain at some point. It already had poured once and weather was forming all arond us.
Tom Valet, please don't take my post as saying we shouldn't learn from this or attempt to fix it. My point is more that the best minds in motorsports run those other orgainizations and they too make mistakes. It begs the question do we view SCCA on the same level as those other organizations.
My final thought is something the corner crew at 14 discussed while we were waiting to restart this race. For whatever reason, things like this don't happen at other events. We work the regionals, nationals, Runoffs, ALMS, IndyCar, etc. The Sprints for whatever reason always has the freak of nature type stuff take place. I am sure there are things that go on at the other events, but never on the level of stuff that takes place at the Sprints.
The reason I raise that point is becuase the Stewards that work the Sprints, work all the other races too. In addiiton, the Stewards that work the Sprints rotate annually or ever couple of years. So, what's the common variable that makes the Sprints have these things take place?
results
not to get off track, with the clearly not well handled rain situation. Any body find a place to get qualifying and race results?
results
June Sprints Chief Steward
Ah another huge blunder from Joanne Jensen, like noone thought this could happen again.She used to be the Chairman of the Board at SCCA.Long time Steward with quite a bit of experience so she should know the rules and especially the supps.She actually headed up the rewrite of the GCR.Another reason I do not want to go to the Sprints.Plagued with bad Stewarding and too costly to take that chance given the tow necessary to get there for me.Congrats to Ethan. Reid sorry it ruined your race.
Another rant:
After the practice session I decide I'll roll thru the scales and see what the car weight is in comparison to the platform scale weight. I pull directly from the track with all my gear on and roll directly on to the tech scale platform. Everybody is very receptive and nice until they print my actual car weight slip and hand it to me. The tech person starts on me by telling me that I need to have my car weight decal posted on the side of my car. I tell him politely that "no I do not need it posted on my car as FB falls into one of the classes that are exempt in the GCR requirement." The tech person turns to three other people sitting at the table at the scales and tells them what I said and to verify it. He returns and says yes I need to have it on my car. I repeat "no that is incorrect". He starts arguing that the GCR states that I must and tends to get a little fired up that I am challanging him. Now he returns back to the table with the others and returns and says the superiors say that I must put it on my car. He tried to compromise and said just write it on a piece of tape and that would be good enough for this event. I cave in and say fine I will do that and drive away from the scales shaking my head. The one thing that seems to happen when there are numerous officials around is that they take sides with each other and want to top each other with who might no more about the issue at hand. They seem to get frenzied up and act like a bunch of dogs seeing which one can pee higher on the fire hydrant. All common sense dissapears and they try to win there power trip. I get down to my paddock spot and just cant leave this issue alone. I jump on the scooter and return to tech. This time talking to Joe Griffin. Joe has been rock solid for the many years that I have been around him. I tell him the story and ask if I need the weight posted. He says no don't worry about it. Once again showing why he is the person who should be in charge. Thanks Joe!! For entertainment purposes I cut a piece of tape about twice the size of a postage stamp and wrote the weight of the car on it. I went over the scales three more times during the event and never heard another word.
seems like things haven't changed much since I left Cen-div in 1989......
Seems like a tough weekend for everyone. The weather, the tech staff, the stewards...
Just two points.
1) This is why we have beer, or beers.
a) In Reid's case, this is why we have moon shine.
2) Remember that they are all volunteers and they enable us to race. So if you've done 50 races and they only goof on a handful... I'd say thats a pretty good track record (pun INtended).
I'm not trying to kick the hornets nest, especially since I didn't participate, just adding some perspective.
Cheers,
Ross
"The winner ain't the one with the fastest car, it's the one who refuses to lose." - Dale Earnhardt Sr.
next time write the wieght in ounces on the sticker.Another rant:
After the practice session I decide I'll roll thru the scales and see what the car weight is in comparison to the platform scale weight. I pull directly from the track with all my gear on and roll directly on to the tech scale platform. Everybody is very receptive and nice until they print my actual car weight slip and hand it to me. The tech person starts on me by telling me that I need to have my car weight decal posted on the side of my car. I tell him politely that "no I do not need it posted on my car as FB falls into one of the classes that are exempt in the GCR requirement." The tech person turns to three other people sitting at the table at the scales and tells them what I said and to verify it. He returns and says yes I need to have it on my car. I repeat "no that is incorrect". He starts arguing that the GCR states that I must and tends to get a little fired up that I am challanging him. Now he returns back to the table with the others and returns and says the superiors say that I must put it on my car. He tried to compromise and said just write it on a piece of tape and that would be good enough for this event. I cave in and say fine I will do that and drive away from the scales shaking my head. The one thing that seems to happen when there are numerous officials around is that they take sides with each other and want to top each other with who might no more about the issue at hand. They seem to get frenzied up and act like a bunch of dogs seeing which one can pee higher on the fire hydrant. All common sense dissapears and they try to win there power trip. I get down to my paddock spot and just cant leave this issue alone. I jump on the scooter and return to tech. This time talking to Joe Griffin. Joe has been rock solid for the many years that I have been around him. I tell him the story and ask if I need the weight posted. He says no don't worry about it. Once again showing why he is the person who should be in charge. Thanks Joe!! For entertainment purposes I cut a piece of tape about twice the size of a postage stamp and wrote the weight of the car on it. I went over the scales three more times during the event and never heard another word.
it will take all 3 of them to convert in to lbs.
I have been writing it in amu.
Slugs.
Ken
Fig Newtons
Makes sense to me.
Whenever someone asks me how fast my car is I convert it to furlongs/fortnight.
How much do you guys with 3/4-16 stub axles torque your centerlock nuts? I've been doing about 8.4 x 10^-8 light year-Planck mass with no problems.
Depends on your chosen thread lubricant
In my opinion it is not so much that mistakes and errors of judgment are made; that is to be expected albeit not much appreciated when it goes against us.
What does make a difference is the attitude of those involved (both sides). It takes two to tango and poor attitudes certainly do not encourage attendance by racers who have choices. There are some really good people and some not so good. Joe is one of the best.
Ethan's Sprints Win
In a race where all of us were forced to compete with one deficit or another. It was Ethan Shippert who was able to minimize the problems to drive away with a win. I will not soon forget the extreme joy and respect Ethan displayed towards his father at the end of the race.
Great job from his "tool" crew as well, they had there hands full of issues to overcome and they all did it, driving away in the rain.
This was Ethan’s race!
A huge congratulations from our team to yours!
Kautz Racing
www.kautzracing.com
Hey Paul, did you guys get any dry laps in? How was the Honda at RA? Any lap times you would care to share?
In full agreement with this, I would add to attitude whether people, on either side, process and learn from mistakes. I hope there is some soul searching taking place in the region this week.
Reply to Tom Valet
Hi Tom,
We miss hanging with you and your Driver Services crew in the Rand and Co. F1600 Series, Too much going on with getting this “Silver Whale”, as it was called at the Sprints, going in the right direction. I’ve been posting our findings with full disclosure, just haven't gotten around to commenting on this race yet. I’ll write in greater detail later on our website.
The Honda is nothing short of fantastic.
We have been spending a lot of time working out gearing and were able, under beautiful, cool, mid 60’s temps, to get the car within a few tenths of the track record with a 2:22:57 right out of the box. In fact we had several laps in the 22’s which were all hard fought laps when dealing with the back of the FB Class. We feel there is more to be found and we are busy with the work. With the 30.5mm restrictor and a bone stock engine, this car is right there or very close to TOP National Kent. Its a apple to oranges comparison to the Kent vs. Honda topic with the track being the differentiating factor. There are those that will challenge my findings, but after all they are our findings and we have nothing to hide except for the obvious (gearing, set-up, speeds, nitrous injection, etc) . We know that there are Kent engines out there that can dip below the 22’s with the right conditions, just like last years testing. But on RA we ran the string of 22’s and the field was on average 2 seconds off.
The rain really s*it on us after the start of the race. As you can read in the posts above, all manner of confusion broke out.
The race results reflect the first lap times on a dry track, after that we sat for an hour plus waiting for an intelligent decision for the Chief Stewart that never came. We ran the race with the car banging on the ground hundreds of times per lap, from your race days, you can imagine what its like in the rain when your brakes don’t work. The CS should have let the field set the cars up for rain, not just tires. It was a poor decision and very dangerous and one that did not consider driver safety at all. Ethan got it right or at least better and after a poor start, we didn’t have a chance. You cant believe the water on track.
I’m sure some smart a#s will comment that we could have pulled off, like that would every happen!
Good to hear from you...are you thinking of coming over to the dark side? We have parts for sale, cheap.
Paul
Kautz Racing
Www.kautzracing.com
No Paul, you are spot on. That thing really is fantastic. Sounds a little funny though, I thought the Kent was suppose to sound like a tractor
The way Tim would fly by me on the straights; if I didn't know better I would think you took the wings of an FC car. I feel I have one of those kent engines that can dip below the 22s (2.21.054 if I recall correctly), but I sure as heck wasn't going to get there that weekend. Track sucked.
Thanks for being as objective as you guys have been. It sure is refreshing to see that.
Anyone who has the means and does not convert is leaving time on the table.
One thing I will add is the top end of the Honda is what surprised me. I would pull a little off the corner from Tim but by the time we hit 3rd gear on the front straight the Honda would start to really boogie. End of the straights is where it seemed he would really, really gain on me. Watching my rear facing camera it was like he had a bungee cord on me.
RH
Reid,
Could that be a result of "new improved" Piper aero, compared to older VD aero?
Just a thought. Team Kautz did a lot of pre-season massaging on the whole car. Even got Don involved.
Definitely wouldn't argue my car isn't a brick or say that is not a factor, but it sure was not like that when he had a Ford in it. And DB-6s don't waste me like that either.
RH
That Piper has had a lot more done to it since last year other than just sticking a Honda in it.
And, from what I know, what has been done would have more to do with corner speed than straight line speed.
As Paul said, we are not looking for a debate really. This is just my findings. Tim seemed to be pedaling the thing as good as ever, corner speed seemed to be about what I remembered last time I ran with him, but the starightline speed was clearly different. I know what I think that speed came from, but you all can draw your own conclusions.
Perhaps, but I would not be so quick to discount Piper top end aero.
Not to mention top end speed and corner speed are highly interdependent. p=mv
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'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
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