I guess that makes all of our life's easier...in terms of less choices to make and testing to do. I just hope Hoosier doesn't see this as a price hike opportunity for the soft autocross-friendly compounds. I'm not saying specific to FF sizing, but more in terms of an across-the-board that catches our tires.
Still competition
They might get greedy, but they will have plenty of competition even w/out GY.
Mike,Originally Posted by mwood
Does this mean you are actually considering replacing your 2 1/2 yr old tires? Or you waiting until I beat you?
Mark
1990 Van Diemen, the Racing Machine, CM AutoX, 2016 Frontier
You can try to make a street car into an autocrosser or you can do a lot less work and make a race car into a great autocrosser
My oldest set of tires was purchased this Spring and has about 70 HOT weather runs. Middle set has 40 runs and newest set has 4 runs. Rains have no runs . . . just open trailer time to a few big events a loooong way from home.. We will see how long it takes me next year before buying new tires
Dick
I am really bummed that Goodyear has decided to do this. I was finally starting to talk with the Carrol Shelby guys out here in AZ about a possible sponsorship for tires for the ASU FSAE team.
We ran Hoosirs last year for several reasons. Looks like we are going to have to run them again this year. Hoosier does give discounts for FSAE but they are small. Our team has little to no funding sources for our school and we are trying to figure out other sources, but have had our hands tied.
Does anyone have any suggestions or contacts with people at Hoosier that could help us out? Not trying to be unprofessional or anything but I always say it doesn't hurt to ask. We have a partnership with Bondurant for testing our car, but tires are needed and they are not cheap.
Chris Buccola track brat since 1986.
Chicago Region- Corner Worker
Spec Racer Ford Gen 2 #38
Chris....two words....Bake. Sale.
Currently Without Car
Close!Chris....two words....Bake. Sale.
Cal Poly's FSAE team grills burgers at our SoCal Solo events...
They have also been known to work course in exchange for a donation.
You might take a look at all the FSAE photos from the Solo Nationals this year. LOTS of sponsor type decals on many of the cars.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1165117...CPSBoqOQit2TUA
Dick
No sponsor . . . just contingency stickers required by the events I've been to
CM 85
Recruit some B-School guys/gals and task them with getting money...
I have been trying what most of you have suggested but have had my hands tied for several reasons. They have been slightly loosened now but I am still limited. The school support here is a complete joke, they seem to be trying harder to have us fail then succeed.
But I was just asking cause contacts and such are never a bad thing to get. Keep the advice and brainstorming coming.
Chris Buccola track brat since 1986.
Chicago Region- Corner Worker
Spec Racer Ford Gen 2 #38
I'm going to actually put new tires on after the new year! And then I will wait for you to beat me...you're getting close enough, I'm sure it is just a matter of time
RE: Hoosier, tires and FSAE...as Robert suggested, offering to pick up work assignments at events can pay pretty well. Our local FSAE team probably clears $200-300 at a big event. They don't ask for a specific number, but no one pays them less than $15-20...multiply by four run groups and 2-4 FSAE worker subs per RG.
We dont get much/any school support either. Hook up with as many local engineering/machining/racing companies as you can. Set up a way to get donations to the team recognized for tax deduction eligibility. and get the car(s) and team out to as many events, both racing and promoting, as possible.
Sorry for the late update, looks like word trickled down already, Its been a busy month. Heres what I got from GoodYear:
"Well I finally got some news to pass along. The Goodyear D2704 will not be built in 2013. The door is still open for the future but will not be built next year. This news disappoints me very much as we had a great tire with that one but there is no sense in running teams along with hope. Sorry for inconvenience and I will keep in touch as I hear more news.
....
Unfortunately due to economic factors a lot more than the D2704 tire was cut. I do feel confident that once things get better and things are hatched out that some codes will make a re-entry into the tire lineup. It won’t happen in 2013. But I will do everything I can to try to get this tire back as it has tremendous potential in more than just one arena. I will continue to keep you posted on any new development with this tire. "
This definitely bums me out.
Also, whoever said the FSAE compound is R065, its not, its R110. Its a new "green" compound that they had started using as solo tires as well. Thats straight from goodyears mouth. the old FSAE compound may have been R065, but it gets blown away by the new R110
I am going to keep my fingers crossed for the sizes to come back next year. While the hoosiers are great. The goodyears are that much greater.
Edit: Speaking of goodyears, did anyone try the 20x8-13 R110's this year? They dont exist in stock anywhere, so someone must have bought them, and we were very interested in testing them. If anyone has a lightly used set, let me know!
Last edited by Raneff5; 12.11.12 at 2:55 AM.
I kinda doubt that anyone tried the 8x20x13 R110 GYs and bought all of them. More likely GY didn't make any. There wasn't a single BM car on GYs that I know of this last year and now, unfortunately, maybe there never will be.
2 AM cars ran R110 GYs at 2012 Solo 2 Nationals. I know for sure it was 9.5x20x13 on the Wasdahl's front, so probably no 8x20x13 data from AM either -it seems.
Thanks for correction on 065 not being used in recent times in the GY FSAE tire.
I started to investigate FSAE results again, and noticed the 2012 Formula Student championship car that won the skid pad event at Silverstone was on Avon A45s and it was even a wingless car (Oxford Brookes)
A45 is even softer than the A15 compound that many of us use in US solo.
Back to the GY R110, it was a good compound that you might have found absolutely ideal for the FSAE enduro- like the r25B Hoosier.
The advice I got from Jeff Kiesel on the R110 for my 377kg BM car was that is was probably borderline ok and a bit on the hard side for a car that light. But that's for cold weather CA courses only 40s long.
Probably no where as much heating effect as you see in the much longer FSAE enduro session.
Its absolutely possible, but I cant imagine they would be too hard for a BM car. We run them regularly at auto-x events with and w/o aero, and at FSAE lincoln last year, I set the 4th fastest auto-x time (with a big mistake- oops) on GY's. The tires are designed to come up to temp for the Auto-x runs, and they certainly do, even on the much slower speed FSAE courses.
The FSAE tire had an all-new construction along with the compound. It may have been the different construction of the tires Keisel ran which caused heating issues, I dont know. We also have to take into account the dynamics of the tires, we have test rig data on the tires and can design for them, and the data is b-e-a-utiful. One problem I see is they seem to like more slip angle than the hoosiers, which is possibly a reason they might seem to "come up to temp slower", if you arent in the slip range of the tire, it is hard to get heat into them. Just too many possibilities.
Avon does make softer tires than the A15 for sure, they have ( or had- not sure if they still do) a tire specific to FSAE as well with a compound deemed too soft for anything else. We have tried these (still have three sets), and on Solo auto-x courses, they grain and overheat by the end of first runs. I am very interested to try another compound they make, but the data suggests the Avons like even more slip angle than the GY's. Possibly enough to make driving a very transitional course difficult. However Avons seem to come up to temp quickly, even in the A15's and A11's, and who can argue with them winning numerous classes? Maybe worth a shot to spend some cash and try them.
About FS UK though: the dynamic events day was raining all day, so the avon might be the best tire for rain, but there were still many GY-shod cars at the top of every FSAE/FS competitions auto-x and skidpad scores.
A45 is actually used by big 'ol cars like my BM car in brit hillclimb. Pretty short and damp hills most likely. I wouldn't even think of using A45 here.
If I were you, I would think about stretching those high slip angle tire carcasses out on wider rims.
BTW, I know there is a set of 8.2x22x13 A15 Avons at Roger Kraus GY in Castro Valley right now. I'd put those on 10" wide rear rims and maybe a set of 7x20x13 fronts on 9" wide rims or maybe something narrower on 8" wide rims.
All that rim may sound bad in terms of unsprung weight, but you never want rely upon "conventional wisdom" in competition. Remember the very oddball tire combo that Uof Md had on their TR11 in 2011? Hoosier 9x20x13 rears and 8x18x10 fronts.
I do indeed, that car made being drag limited not seem like a problem. Right now we run 6 inch front, 8 inch rear rims. These sizes are used soley because cast magnesium 13 inch centerlock wheels can only be found int hese sizes due to the rulesets from our formulax brethren. This works ok-ish with the hoosiers except for the stupid 20.5 inch tall 6 and 7 inch widths hoosier makes, which actually measure over 21 inches tall when inflated, over an inch taller than the 7.5 rears we run; which measure 9 inches wide in actuality. It somewhat wonks up the cars steering and suspension geometry, which is one of the reasons I was ecstatic about GY making more sizes in the R110 - staggered tire sizes with the same rolling diameter, as the car was designed for the same tires all around for FSAE.
We can get heat into the tires just fine normally, but when its cold we have lots of trouble even heating those sizes up. I would however like to try stretching the tires to get some of the feel back that we lose with the hoosiers - and possibly the rumored floppy avons. Our plan is eventually 7" front 8.5" rear, however 13's in those widths will have to be three piece (read: heavy). Its a tradeoff that should and hopefully will be investigated. With the GY's, we were planning to run 7 inch front 8 inch rear wheels with the corresponding size tires, possibly a half inch wider on the rims. Too wide, and were having to go too far around the cones!
Did you notice the centerless rims that Amberg Weiden's car had?
400 g savings per rim with better load path to boot.
That might make wider rims easier to live with in terms of unsprung.
As to overall vehicle width, if you generate more cornering force as a result and can corner faster- you might more than make up for the longer distance (higher amplitude sinewave shape) traveled in a slalom. (ASP Z06 corvette vs Lotus elan examples)
The TR11 UofMd FSAE was about 57" wide if I scaled the photos right.
I'd think about radials to get some sharpness back in, but they are generally heavier and a radial doesn't generate heat as quickly as a bias ply can.
It is probably a better compromise to get the heat up faster for a slightly harder compound w. more tear strength than runnning a radial with a softer compound.
I've watched hillclimb photos of very quick formula cars using Avon Radials and noticed they have to live with a lot of rubberband overshoot, esp. in the rear end. (Shelsy wash vids of the Predator) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk89E...endscreen&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFMuXe80-a4 The other odd thing about switching to the radials is that everyone complains that they do not hook up as well in a straight line compared to a similar sized tall sidewall bias ply. As the weight of the vehicle goes down, the radial advantage seems to diminish and reverse vs. bias ply if you go low enough in weight.
They allow tire warming burnouts in hillclimb, but even then, the Predator still runs traction control thru the first 3 corners or so until the tires heat up-then Graeme switches it off.
The predator V10 (even w/out DF) is not a very light car by our FSAE or even BM standards. My BM car could be a lot lighter. Hoosier has tried several times over the years to make a true 13" radial for lightweight cars and has given up every time. Some say their curent semi-radial is as good as is possible for light cars.
That thing sounds nasty, I love it. Also, the centerless rims AW did are definitely awesome; practical, maybe not, but innovative- absolutely. Im not about to copy them, but it definitely gave us some ideas to think about.
We have looked into radials - michilen makes an FSAE Radial which we have data on, and they just aren't up to par with lateral grip as the numerous bias ply options. Many of the teams who were using them switched to GY and hoosiers, they just couldnt keep up with the other tires. They are heavier as well, as you said.
Accelerative grip is also a downfall of the radial. For your BM car, it might be a much larger detriment: we're restricted and make maybe 1/2-2/3 the power you can. We are rarely traction limited, especially with the fatties out back. The response of a radial would be nice, however I think we could get to a happy place with better sized rims/tires as you suggested. Its been in the plans, but the solo development of our older cars is poorly funded (read: us poor grad students wanna go fast(er) but have to pay for it)
Something interesting (or not) is that rim width doesnt usually add any extra maximum grip, although it can change the shape of the slip-angle vs grip curves. Where it would help would likely be corner entrance, you'd have roughly the same mid corner grip, and might have a tad less exit stability when getting on the throttle. I think where you might get the most from is just the added feedback and driver confidence. Me personally, when I'm not feeling the car, I lose my pace rapidly. I think I said it earlier int he thread, but its one of my favorite things about the GY vs the Hoosier, the feel is just vastly improved, making the hoosiers feel floppy, numb and slow to react.
GY has some smarts when it comes to carcass construction. They just appear very slow to address small market stuff.
The 9.5x20x13 bias ply FA front has been around for maybe 30+ years. In the 1980's, most of us didn't care for it too much in AP where I ran or by the guys in DM.
However, Jerry Fink surprised us at a Divisional in PA (circa 1985) when he showed up running the same FA front tire on all 4 corners of his 7. He had those 9.5's stretched out on 11" wide rims. He beat a rather magical driver who was on ultra soft very stiff sidewall M&Hs in a heavier Turner 1500 with roughly the same weak Cortina engine. Fink's 7 with the 11" wide rims was also about 10% wider than the Turner. 66" vs 60" roughly. Jerry told me the 11" wide rims were the only way he felt the FA fronts could be made responsive enough for solo. Those sidewalls always felt like they were only 2 ply to me. (fingers used as calipers haha)
There were medium length tight spaced slaloms at that same Divisional that were hateful to me in a (borrowed ride) BM Brabbam BT38. We had some soft compound Cooper dirt slicks 7" wide 2 ply bias ply slicks on the front mouinted on 7" wide rims. Talk about high slip angles and being all elbows to drive in the slalom. Felt OK everywhere else, though
Fast forward to 2005 or 6 roughly, I found that GY had a very good tire combo for ProMazda that was an advanced bias ply construction. 8.2x21x13 and 11x22x13 with the old f1 qualifing compound (probably 065) available in uncut rains. What you see inside the tire is just the lowest set of plies. you don't really know what is above that. But those tires looked like they were semi- radials simply based upon the angle of the lowest plies. (These tires are the ones out of production now-replaced by radials with moulded rains- no more uncut rains in a soft compound).
GY said they updated the 9.5x20x13 roughly 2 or 3 years ago which helped the turn in and responsiveness. Jim Dowdy at GY in Phoenix told me thay hadn't made the sidewall any stiffer and couldn't comment on the what they actually changed in the carcass.
I'm guessing that they applied the more advanced ProMazda bias ply carcass technology to the FA bias ply front. This was pretty unusual for GY since that particular bias ply FA tire was already obsolete and no longer used in road racing except in vintage. All modern FA cars had been on 15" tires for quite awhile by then.
Sounds like FSAE GY's could have received the same benefit as the updated FA front tires.
Now, why did GY change over to a radial in the ProMazda series? Perhaps for the same reason other pro series are using radials.
These teams go through a LOT of tires. They test and test and test and run a lot of events. Radials in general are much better dimensionally controlled in production and use than bias ply. The pro teams demanded better size consistency because it was nearly impossible to test and race with the same suspension setup if the bias plies were used. That was one story I got anyway. I asked a few people running Pro Mazda if the radials were faster and I never got a totally satisfying answer." About the same, within tenths" was one report.
Last edited by B17overhead; 12.16.12 at 2:14 PM.
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