Goodyear
With Goodyear having a bigger presence in Solo... Kiesels car, DOT R's, trackside support at El Toro ProSolo
On a CMod FF, how does the R160 compound compare to the Hoosier R25b? (guessing not so well by how many Goodyears are on cars in the CMod grid)
What if Goodyear made the R110 compound in FF sizes?
Eric
If I only had more wheels, tires, and track time!
Back in the day, GY made a 120 and Goddula was good as always on those. When production moved out of the US (before it came back) they stopped making 120's and Gary stopped using GY because he was sure the 160's wouldn't be competitive. I think a 110 would be worth testing if they decided to make them. I sent Kiesel an email months ago about GY autocross FF tires, but never heard anything. If they make them, I'm sure plenty of people would try them.
I'm not absolutely certain of the timeline for when production was moved and 120's were stopped so please don't quote me, but I am sure of Gary's decision.
Barry
Well we tried the GY 160's. Jon and I put a fresh set on the Mondiale today. Results would indicate they are plenty competitive.
http://members.quixnet.net/free2000/cscc072212_pax.htm
It was warm (80's) and sunny and with two drivers it wasn't a problem to get the 160's up to a working temperature.
Very interesting! Thanks for the info. What was the surface (asphalt, concrete, abrasive, smooth, etc, etc?) I ran Hoosiers at the CO tour, the surface is old asphalt, relatively grippy, abrasive. One driver, ~90 degrees or so, and I was thinking the tires got plenty hot with just one driver, and I'd probably be cooling tires if I had a co-driver. So maybe a little harder compound would be helpful, especially at Lincoln. It's a little late now for me to play with tires, but it sounds like a tire test is in order :-)
Barry
CalClub Solo event at El Toro. Grippy asphalt, considered by many to be the surface most like Lincoln in the southwest.
Goodyears Rock!
I left the shifter kart in the trailer and got the Goodyear R160 shod FF out on course today...
Paxed #1, http://members.quixnet.net/free2000/cscc092312_pax.htm
Jon went first so I had the benefit of starting with warm tires (150*) and knowing where to shift. Air temp was high 80's-low 90's. Didn't check surface temps. Tire temps suggest GY's like a little less camber than R25b's and slightly lower air pressure.
Now to wait for cooler weather to see how they work with less heat...
You hinted at a few setup changes between the two (camber and air). How do they feel vs the Hoosier's?
Again, thanks for sharing the info! And thanks for everything you did for all of us at Nationals!!!!!!
Yeah, it will be interesting to see how they do on "cold" SoCal days. Do you know how old the hoosiers were that Joey was running?
Barry
Doug, very similar- maybe a little more crisp.
Barry, thanks and your welcome. Sure was nice to show up, work course, run, then go home!
Joey/George were running their nationals tires (6 runs)
We were running on our Nationals tires. Still haven't done anything about the car pushing. The problem was magnified on this surface.
Had you "removed" any opr from Lincoln?Originally Posted by george schilling
Speaking of opr, look at the series of shots Perry Bennett took of my car in the Pro Finale where I got out of shape and into the marbles. Lots of opr visible on the tires.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1165117...-7ycXoqIaanwE#
Dick
Yeah, we removed it on my first two runs.
Eric times were certainly an eye opener. Unexpected, as usually he and Jon run pretty close. Jon took his runs first an was slower, maybe due to colder tires?
Eric, how did the tire temps compare run - run.
After Jon's first run 130*, second run 140* and stayed around 150* for the rest. Jon doesn't like going first, having to figure out where to shift/what gear for which corner... When I go first and tell him what to do he uses his young kid reflexes and lack of fear to beat me.
This is an interesting thread, Im currently weight options for next years tires on our 2011 FSAE car. Granted -much- lighter cars than CM and BM, but we have quite a bit of aero loading.
Currently use 13x7 front 13x7.5 rear hoosiers, but they have a pretty severe diameter mismatch, which our suspension was not designed for (just throws the kinematics off a bit)
Also, the hoosiers heat cycle out so quickly...
Ive been looking into Avon A15 compound tires, along with the R160 Goodyears. I am however, a bit worried we wont be able to heat the R160's up to temp.
I havent found difinitive information on this, but the tires Jeff Keisel runs in EM; theyre a softer compound than the R160s?
I assume you've contacted the FSAE oriented "support" folks for the manufacturers and looked at whatever is on their websites . . .
That said:
I believe the GY tires Jeff K and many of the other DM/EM guys run are radials. AFAIK the compound numbering system for radials is different than for bias ply. However those cars are pretty heavy and have tons of power so overheating tires may be what they "worry about".
Regarding the Hoosier diameter mismatch between the two Hoosiers is the specified difference of 0.4 inches too much or is the actual diameter difference greater than the spec? (I'm NOT a race engineer).
Dick
CM 85
what size of tire was the car designed around?
I'm pretty sure Jeff runs bias slicks, R160's (in rear but not front?) when it's hot, something else when it's not. With eleventy billion horsepower he probably doesn't have a problem getting the rears hot!
Avon A15 radials will grip right away even if it's cold, gets greasy when warm. May not get too hot on a light SAE car. You'll have to make major alignment changes to make the radials work.
Hoosier R25b - Solo "spec" tire, good cool to warm.
Goodyear R160 - initial testing show a distinct advantage when hot.
I called GY asking for a softer compound in FF sizes. They Said it wasn't likely since the road racers already think the R160 is too soft.
More good GY results.
http://members.quixnet.net/free2000/cscc101412_pax.htm
Cooler day/stiff breeze kept tire temps to 125*-135*. Jon went first and kicked my butt (.017) the gap to the R25b shod car was HUGE, .034
Next project for the cooler months, get the GY crisp feel with the R25b's lower temp grip.
Interesting. How was the balance between brands and what were the sizes (assuming only the fronts have a "choice").
Thanks,
Dick
How much are the GY r160's compared to the hoosiers?
20-7-13 GY
20.5-7-13 Hoosier
I had to go out to trailer to see the sizes, I would have guess they were the same size!
If the Goodyear really is a little shorter that could explain the crisper turn in. Switching from Hoosier to Goodyear, if all FF chassis respond the same, you'll probably move towards push/more rear grip.
I don't know about pricing, tires just appear on my doorstep when I need them. Hoosier Tom would be glad to supply either brand tire...
The crisper turn-in was due to the better construction of the GY. Better sidewall.
But GY can't (or won't) match the softness of the rubber (years ago they had extremely soft tires to choose from). So Hoosier is the tire to have IMHO because whatever is lost in feel is much more than made up for in grip.
The GY would work fine on one of those 90+ degree days at the Nationals or in the southwest. But because so many events in the Northeast are run in colder conditions, the Hoosier is the way to go for me.
And to get the most out of either set of tires you need to set up the car differently. Plus the driver will have to get used to the different feel between tires.
So you have to make up your mind what tire to go with and then stick with it. Go with the H and deal with less feel. Go with the G and deal with less grip when the day is anything less than sunny and hot.
Jim
I wish I understood everything I know.
Final event of the year yesterday.
Low 70*s ambient. With tire blankets and fairly quick turnaround between runs we could only get the GY R160's up to 100-120*.
I ended up .9 off the fast time and Jon was conemangler for the day.
Eric, do you mean .9 off the top CM time?
Yes, .9 from top CM time.
I was 1.1 off pax for the event.
That's what I figured.
The pax deal is going to get a little tougher for us next year, but seeing as pax is pretty much on the fringe of any type of statistical relevance, I guess I don't care too much...
FYI guys, Goodyear is considering making a 7 inch R110 tire (FF size- its the FSAE tire). I urge you to contact them and spread support for this size!
Hey Ryan, do you have any preferred contact info for Goodyear?
From what I've heard, the 110 compound would be spectacular for a CM car, so I'd definitely like to urge goodyear to build the sizes we need.
And why not a 10 in tire while they are at it so Hoosier would have some competition.
Mark
1990 Van Diemen, the Racing Machine, CM AutoX, 2016 Frontier
You can try to make a street car into an autocrosser or you can do a lot less work and make a race car into a great autocrosser
wow.. I wish I had that problem...
The good years sound like an interesting summer tire for me.
Bad news, maybe not for everyone
Sorry to tell you guys but I was at Roger Krause GY in Castro Valley, CA today and Roger told me that Goodyear does not plan to support any FSAE tires, formula Atlantic, GT Car 16" radial, or DSR size tires in any compound in 2012.
He did say they would still support FF and maybe one other similar popular class.
For the most part XP, BM, DM, EM are out of luck now with GY.
No tires at all in any compound.
Same story from Carrol Shelby Enterprises, the dealer in AZ.
-Chuck
<sarcasm on> But we're such a huge market, how can they turn their back on us <sarcasm off>
Bummer! Oh well, Hoosiers don't suck! :-) I'm still trying to decide if I want to test the GY's or just stick with the Hoosiers. I guess I need to get the car working "right" with Hoosiers then I'll decide...
Thanks for the information!
Seems odd that Goodyear would send reps to Nationals/ProSolos, make a Solo specific DOT tire, support drivers, and then pull out...
Has GY had a upper level management/marketing change?
Has anyone said that GY is pulling out of the Solo DOT market?
Personally given the limited suitable testing sites and budget that I have I'm HAPPY that GY doesn't have a likely competitor for Hoosier for CM Solo.
Dick
CM 85
GY dropping solo
GY is one very odd company and their support of solo so far has actually been grudgingly given and has had rather poor overall results.
On the other hand, they have great dealers and some of them campaigned their management for solo tires.
However, as a company GY have always been fickle or non-caring regarding solo and both dealers and driver now predict that won't ever change
GY evidently make their real money on NASCAR currently and won't waste 2 minutes on the tiny solo market itself or even the smaller road race classes now.
Won't even make the carcasses, let alone the compounds for solo
Some top level solo drivers did not get the GY tires they needed for the 2011 nor the 2012 Nationals and suffered for it.
In some cases, they had to settle for R160 compound all the way around or R110 front and R160 rear.
I've had experience with R160 for 20 years on and off and it is barely workable for solo.
GY's recent R110 is better and more like a slightly softer Hoosier R25B, but still not a ideal tire for a light car like a BM or AM when the air temp is about 70 or less. Avon A15 kicks its butt at lower and lower temps.
The very softest GY compound for solo would have been the 065 and it was mainly only available in FSAE sizes.: 7x20x13.
6 years ago, I designed all the suspension for my current BM car around GY tires. I was setting up to use the 065 uncut rains for Pro Mazdas (8.2x21x13 and 11x22x13).
065 is derived from a F1 dry qualifying ties eons ago and later became a rain in GYs lineup. Part way into my project, the o65 rain became only available in molded rain and they changed to a radial carcass which was extremely expensive. I had to scramble to find alternate tires. Hoosier R25B is great under more conditions across the country, but not out here in the SF Bay area 97% of the time.
Can you elaborate regarding why this is the case? What is so different in the SF Bay area (in regard to tires . . .
Dick
Former SF Bay autocrosser . . . in the 70's and 80's in street cars
CM 85 FF now
Yup, mostly just an issue of track temperature.
Mark Twain: "Coldest winter I ever saw was summer in San Francisco" haha
If one has a BM car and only wants to risk its soft white underbelly at Marina: temp range 45 to 70 year around, typically 62 highs most of the time.
Inland (Sac, Fres etc) isn't really Bay area to me and a different story. More like the rest of the country.
People who show up at Marina on GY R160 FF tires on heavier cars than FF feel they work kinda ok after some runs, but say they feel they are still giving up grip to softer tires.
Back to Bay area: You must have seen tire warmer drivers in CP cars at Golden Gate fields on R160's?
On another light formula car, quite a while ago, I ran R160 in FL and AZ and didn't like it in the winter when all the good events were. R25 was a really big improvement. If you go back some more, M&H 22 compound was also lots better on light cars than R160.
Nats 2012:
I got this second hand, but story is that Cashmore (DM) running R160 rears and R110 fronts had to immediately adjust swaybars when he put R110 rears on rebalance to the added R110 rear grip.
Thanks Chuck,
When I autocrossed in the SF area the vast majority of events were in Pleasanton at the Alameda County Fairgrounds. When I ran actual slicks was in the late 70's on a Datsun Z. Whatever the GY compound was at the time that Roger Krause sold. The events (pre SCCA) had ONE three lap run consisting of a practice lap and two timed laps with the time being the total of the two time laps. Being second driver certainly helped as did being on fresher tires than the competition. We used to consistently have about 300 competitors in those days. Great fun.
Dick
No more Goodyears
Per Jeff Kiesel on sccaforum.com Goodyear will no longer support autocross. There may still be tires available in some sizes and some compounds.
R110, R160, and R250 compounds are discontinued.
Which make explain why Hoosier started advertising for engineers a month ago . . .
HELP WANTED:
HOOSIER RACING TIRE IS LOOKING FOR ENGINEERS
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We currently are searching for several engineers including rubber compound engineers, race tire engineers and tire and rubber process engineers. (Click HERE to review the list of available job openings and requirements.)
If you are looking for a challenge, then this just might be the position you are looking for.
We're looking for individuals who have motorsports engineering experience and are interested in putting that experience to use at Hoosier.
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So, if you feel any of these positions might be what you are looking for, we would love to hear from you.
Please send a cover letter, resume, salary history and college transcript to hr@hoosiertire.com.
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