Interested FST or FV

[Mike Bennett]

I've been interested in FST/FV for some time and live in your dreams on line. Turned 52 this week and the kids are grown and thinking I could be closer to living my own dream in the race seat. Wont bother you with the usual "how much" questions about the car or FST vs. FV cost, I've read most of those debates. There are just too many variables in the startup cost. New, used, kit, partial build ect. Or even the travel cost.....trailer, open, enclosed, pickup, motorhome. I think one would just have to dive in there.

There are a few questions I do have a problem figuring out on my own and think you can help me. Consider I have a car and a way to get it to the track........

1. What are the cost to actually race once you and the car get to the track? Entry fees particularly and another intangible I suppose would be SCCA/Club membership cost.

2. What are the actual racing opportunities in the Southeast Division as it pertains to the FST vs. FV question. Particularly the N. Florida, GA, AL, TN, area. I'll be in the Biloxi area for the next few years and would explore this region for developing a racing habit.

[jsteeb]

Hi Mike!

Entry fees (for a double regional) are usually $300-$400.

I think my SCCA membership is $80, or thereabouts.

In a FST, a set of sticker tires (~$550) will last most of the season, but I would budget 2 (depending on the amount of weekends you do). At least 1.5 so you have a spare front and rear.

I only use 100LL Avgas in my car, and I usually show up with 15 gallons if I run the Friday test day. I never use it all, but at $6 per gal that's $90 worth of fuel.

I think I averaged about $120 per weekend for fuel in the tow vehicle.

Hotels are not cheap. My wife an I used to camp. Not so much these days. If you get there Friday night, and assume $100 average rate, that's another $200.

Then there's food. Track food isn't cheap (or always available) so we pack our own snacks.

If you're looking at average weekend cost, include the consumables. The brake pads I use last 1 season. I bet I add 1/2qt of oile over the weekend. Plus, I change the oil in the car 2x per season (Red Line 30wt) w/filter it takes about $100. Trans oil gets once a season (if all goes well) $30-ish? I flush the brakes between races, some maybe 1 pint per weekend.

I think that's about it for costs. Even if it's not, I need to stop thinking about it...This crap is expensive! Once you make the plunge, and have the car/trailer.... the cars (FV/FST) really aren't too bad. Just keep oil in them, and keep them cool.

I know you said you read all of the debates, but I'll add one last comment... Your time also has value. One of the reasons I switched to FST is because they are easier to work on, and require less of my time in the garage and at the track. This makes the prep easier, and the race weekend much more relaxing.

Just my $.02.

Hope to see you out there!
Jason

[Amon]

Jason,

Could post and response with details, but how many FST's are racing in his region
and if they're few, I would recommend FV until there's more growth in his area because no one wants to race themselves!

Mark

[Matt King]

On top of the annual SCCA membership dues you will also have an annual race license fee, which is about another $80-100/year depending on regional or national status.

Another cost to consider, regardless of class, is the amortization of period maintenance, like engine rebuilds. If an engine rebuilt costs $1500 every 10 weekends, that's another $150 per weekend to factor in.

[jsteeb]

Mark / Matt... good points. I forgot about the license fee.

Mike... Assuming you have the car, a fresh engine, new tires, helmet and gear, a tow vehicle and trailer... I figure the race weekend itself would cost you around $700 or $800 total.

That said, Matt's right. When I put together my racing budget, I do include/amortize a set number for spares, the engine rebuild, and repairs/mods. This gives you a true cost number to have in mind during the season. These all depend on the room you have in your personal budget, and are not, necessarily, required "to get to the track."

I can't comment on the SE Div, but I'm sure Bill or RG have better feel. I will say there's nobody racing a FST at Waterford Hills regularly, but I tend to have quite a bit of fun racing FFs, F500s, and my own stop watch. I just enjoy being out on the track. Nothing beats wheel to wheel battles for weekend bragging rights. Just depends on your priorities for your racing adventure.

Cheers!
Jason

[Steve Davis]

Mike,
FWIW, I'm pretty sure there is only ONE FST in SEDIV at this time and I'm not sure he's active at the moment. OTOH, there is quite a list of regional FV competitors. Many of them have been around for a LONG time and simply choose NOT to race at the National level (too expensive and time consuming, they say ).

You might want to talk with Fred Clark personally - he's in Jacksonville, FL and is the defacto "leader" of the regional FV contingent - he's also a 'big wig' in SCCA and has been racing vees longer than most on this forum have been alive . Check out CaracalCars.com for contact info.

Steve, FV80

[Bill Bonow]

Mike,

Steve Davis is almost correct in that there is one FST who runs in SE Div. There are acually (5) cars between (4) drivers and of those (4) have been on a race track while the 5th car was a project that never was completed. Of these, one runs at Road Atlanta and Barber (but has been out for a season) and the other runs mostly in Florida.

Here is a list of cars that we know about.

Campbell Evolution – Dimitri Mariutto – Nashville, TN – owner/driver
BRD – Dimitri Mariutto – Nashville, TN – owner/driver
Notes: Unfortunatly, both cars have transformed into garage queens and Dimitri keeps claiming that he won't sell as he will return to racing someday in the future

Citation – Garry Sharp – Atlanta, GA – owner/driver
Notes: Garry was a regular at Road Atlata Regionals and undertook a complete makeover of his car. Have not heard/seen race results with Garry's name in a while... Worried about another garage queen in the making.

Silver Bullet Caracal C– Allan Adderley – Floral City, FL – owner/driver
Notes: Allan is the Silver Bullet body guy. Has been out a fair amount, but a questionable dry sump tank arrangement gave him fits. He has a new dry sump system in the car and a fresh engine from Rollin at Cricket Farms. I'd bet he will now be out more often and quite fast as well.

Caracal D - Rick Johnson - Decatur, GA - owner/driver
Notes: Still born project. Rick had started on the project and lost his job. Car got parked and is currecntly for sale (maybe sold?)

There are more project cars that never made it very far, JR Russel comes to mind, but this is the status of the current cars in SE.

The only thing I would add is that FV is slowly shrinking while FST is slowly growing. Yes, FST is strong in certain regions of the country, but another bumper crop of FV conversions this year will bring about (8) new FST's areas that have been FST "light" (PacNW, NE Div).

Talk to many people (FV and FST) so you can make an informed choice. I'm biased, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

[rdfrancis]

Mike,

This is only MY opinion so take it or leave it. You will find 2 groups of FV folks. The first group is made up of what I will call the PRO'S. They are driven to win. Some are Regional and some are National. They have the time and money to devote to their hobby. Many are very closed-lipped about how they set up their engines and suspension but many will be happy to help you if you run into trouble. Most of these guys send their engines to professional engine shops every year for a rebuild. They pay for or are given several sets of the best tires each season and some even have sponsors. We all proudly applaud them and secretly wish we could be there with them on the podium.

Then there is the rest of us. We just want to be out on the track on a cool sunny day and race. Here you will find the Bucket-list guys or someone who left racing and wanted to come back to a class that was easy on the wallet. We do not spend time reducing the car by 6 ounces in an effort to be out in front. We do not worry about points or vendor giveaways. We buy basket cases FV's and look for help putting it back together. Many of us build our own engines because we want to do it. We want to learn everything there is to know about our cars. Someday, we pass this information on to the next newbee.

As far as how many FV versus FST cars are in your area, I wouldn't worry about it. We have 1 FST that runs at Daytona and I have been there when there are only 2 or 3 FV's. So you can be the 4th FV or the 2nd FST. Either way, you will most likely be running with F500 and FF so there will be enough formula cars on the track. You will have a blast no matter what class you are in and what brand of car you are driving.

Just decide if your goal is to be one of the Pro's or if you want to just race and have fun while keeping your costs as low as you can. If that is the case, a used FV or FST will fit your requirements and wallet and you will have many everyday guys to help you get it on the track and keep it there. Don't forget about our FV Vendors. We also rely on them for advice and you will find some of the best from SRacing and Dietmar.

Just remember that most of us have been where you are right now, trying to figure out what we want to do and how to do it. Ask your questions and you will get answers. There are a lot of great people here who are willing to help.

Again.... just my opinion.

[Mike Bennett]

Thanks guys that was a lot of really good helpful info. I really tried to keep the car itself out of the equation to get some calculations that I wasn't able to get anywhere else.

Jason's comment of $700-$800 a weekend was a little alarming. That could reduce my wife's crew memeber vacations from 7-8 weekends to 5-6 weekends a year.

So, as I said thanks for the help I feel like I'm already in the pits as a newbee talking to you guys and you have already made me feel welcome. As I said still calculating hope to maybe work on a car this year for a 2013 rookie campaign.

[Mike Bennett]

Oh, RD......
I'm a bucket list guy just wondering how to get the most out of the next chapter of our lives. I'm leaning toward the E (excitement) equals FST squared formula. One thing does excite me about this is that as I work for the government and get moved around every few years. This seems to be a lot of thrill that could be found in one form or another nearly anywhere.

[rdfrancis]

Thats me too Mike. I raced a 68 Camaro at Summit Point and Marlboro back in the late 60's and then life hit me. Married, 3 kids, company transferred me to Florida etc etc etc. Now I am retired and want to get back into it but I did not get a Golden Parachute so I am on a budget. I figured I can spend what my wife spent on Longaberger Baskets and call it even! I an getting my Vintage FV it's first Annual in 20+ years next weekend at Daytona. I have been building it for 2 years and enjoying every minute. The people here have been the best thing about getting back into racing and I have made some good Friends while visiting Daytona and Sebring on race weekends. I am also building a Solo VEE for autocross and am thinking about FST too. One nice thing about this class of racing... you have several choices. I don't know what tracks are near you but Roebling Road, near Savanah GA is a great track and is owned and run by the Buccaneer Region of the SCCA. Fred Clark is part of that Region and a great source for knowledge and cars. They also run a double drivers school in February. Spend 1 weekend there and you have both of your drivers schools done. Something to think about. Let us know if we can help.

[jsteeb]

Hi again.

I wouldn't be too freaked out by my numbers. Those are strictly from my experience, and I'm sure there are people who spend much more -or- much less. The only real fixed cost in my number is the entry fee. Otherwise, there are plenty of variables under your control.

For example... A lot of guys run the higher octane pump gas at 2 or $3 less per gallon. Smaller rigs will get better towing milage (I'm lucky enough to borrow my dad's truck and enclosed trailer). Most of the tracks allow camping and have showers. Those are the big ones.

Good luck with your research! Feel free to keep asking questions.

[Garry Sharp]

Garry Sharp here, one of the driver's Bill listed in the SEDIV. The car (and me) are still in play down here and would love to have some new FST's to race with. I just took a year off to be able to come back with a better effort. All the positives written about FST ARE true. I just don't see how anyone could race an open wheel car at world famous tracks like Road Atlanta, Barber Motorsports Park and others more inexpensivlely than FST, so if that is on your bucket list you should get in now.

As far as the Southeast goes there are lots of opportunities. Believe it or not, there is a brand new Herman Tilke designed track , Atlanta Motorsports Park, opening in Dawsonville GA. about 45 miles from Road Atlanta! This means that within about a 2.5 hour drive from Atlanta, you could do 5 weekends between Barber, RA, and AMP.

The car is progressing and is much cleaner and more organised. Should be ready for the double Regional at RA in July, so somebody buy a FST and come on out.

[Bill Bonow]

Garry,

Glad to see the Citation (or what is now a Citation based car ). I though you were just installing one of Allan's Silver Bullet bodies, but it looks like the chassis got a complete make over (taking much more time/effort). Can't wait to see photos of it completed.

Still wanting to come down and run Barber.

[rdfrancis]

Mike,

If you haven't done so yet, join the SCCA and go to the track and see what is there. Talk to the racers (as long as they are not preparing to run....) and get a feel for what goes on on a typical race weekend. A nice thing about being a SCCA member is that you get in for free. You can also volunteer for the many tasks the SCCA folks do every weekend to make it safe and running smooth. They would love to have you. If you are not ready to go racing yet, attend one of the PDX or HPDE days. You can bring any street car to the track and drive it on the road course. You will get a mentor who will show you how to go thru the turns, when to brake and accelerate. Usually only $60-80 for a whole day of racing.

[gbmetcalf]

Gary, is that a oil cooler in front of your beam? Didn't know we could do that. Cool.
As far as having FV/FST on a bucket list I have both on mine! As most of you know I bought the Lazer project from Larry Campbell and I am having a blast redesigning the chassis to fit not only FV but FST. I want to have the FV version ready for the 50th. The FST version will come shortly there after.
I'm 53 and have been kicking around racing a little while FV has been my passion but I have raced everything but.

G.

[Garry Sharp]

Brian,
That is the battery up there. I moved it from the Citation sidepod.
The cooler will go back behind the carb.
Garry

[gbmetcalf]

Gary:
Now that I get to see it on my laptop I see it's your battery. Thanks

G

Brian,
That is the battery up there. I moved it from the Citation sidepod.
The cooler will go back behind the carb.
Garry

[protoform]

SR racing has 2 formula vee's for sale right now for what I consider cheep money. One is a speedsport 1996 ready to go and an 87 citation ready to go both for $4500.00 each You can't get a running car cheeper than that. Being in the north east my biggest expence is fuel for my motorhome Am thinking of retiring next year to sc or ga. seems the tracks are a little closer than nh to va good luck lots of nice folks in scca

[jsteeb]

Gary - the car looks spectacular!!! Very nice rebuild.

Bill - After watching the Indy cars last weekend, I forgot how cool Barber looks. I'll make the trip with you one day. Just can't do it this summer.

[problemchild]

Jason's comment of $700-$800 a weekend was a little alarming. That could reduce my wife's crew memeber vacations from 7-8 weekends to 5-6 weekends a year.

In the interests of being brutally honest, $700-800 is the very best it could be. I would expect that it would take several years of racing (with the same car) to be able to do it that cheap. You would have to be lucky and a lousy bookeeper

Unless you live within a few miles of the track and sleep and eat at home, you will have spent most of that $7-800, once you have paid your entry fee and spent the weekend on the road.

I think I would add 50% to the expected costs and plan 2/3rds the number of events. If things go well, add a race or two late in the year.

[provamo]

gee whiz...............things were a LOT cheaper four decades ago!

btw GARRY that is one SHARP looking ride