No Clutch Autox Shifting

[Dick R.]

Dick, The 2-3 shift should be exactly like the 1-2 and 3-4, except that instead of pulling straight back on the lever you are hooking your thumb around it and pushing to the right and forward, all in one motion. If it won't do that you should have somebody work on your transmission. Just don't carve away too much from the tip of the 'hockey stick' or you can wind up stuck in 2nd gear (if it can slip through the gate before the 1-2 fork is in neutral).

Don

Don,

Thanks for the hint. The problem isn't the trans . . . it is the driver since the trans has the right Taylor mod to do exactly what you say . . . and does it just fine . . . when the driver pushes to the right like I'm supposed to. I really have no problem when the shift is needed on a "real straight". My problem with shorter gearing is the shift is frequently needed when the course is really busy and I'm concentrating on and executing other things. Even when I was "in my CM prime" 10 - 15 years ago I couldn't execute 2 - 3 shifts reliably unless I "short shifted" to get the shift done in a less busy part of the course.

Dick

[Dick R.]

Hey Dick R,

Thank you very much for the motivation, I will see at the National's, Yes?.

Ben

That is the plan. Now that I'm retired and "think" I have enough $$$ saved up it is my primary goal. I'll be essentially a Nationals rookie since the last one I attended was at Forbes Field on 9/11.

Dick
CM 85

[RudeDude]

FYI regarding dead pedal: See attached pic of the "heel dead pedal" in my Swift copy.

Dick

Thank you so much for the photo, Dick! I never imagined that thing was a "dead pedal". I have that in my car, too.

[Locked]

My shifting story..

As I learned in the Dulon Mark always said it was ok to use the clutch. I never bothered to really try without the clutch all year. Mark also used the clutch at the time and never had a problem with any of the shifts. I on the other hand could show up and never miss a shift over a weekend.. The very next weekend I'd miss the 1-2 every time. We always blamed the car for whatever reason.

At nationals in '10 I was missing gears on the TnT course, and like before when that would happen I would just bog the crap out of the car and start in 2nd gear. Not the best way to do it.

Then I bought my VD. 1st event, I missed darn near every shift. Clearly it wasn't the Dulon. Finally, I decided to go clutchless. I never missed, and haven't used the clutch since. I've driven the dulon on a couple occasions since going clutchless. Same story, no missed shifts.

Ben, it won't take you a year to get used to it. It will take you 1 event. Trust the way Hewland recommends.

[Jim Garry]

Thank you so much for the photo, Dick! I never imagined that thing was a "dead pedal". I have that in my car, too.

Sho,
You have Ken Hurd to thank for that. He kept bugging me to install it and finally at Nationals in '07 I think, he shook me by the shoulders and insisted. So we went to a hardware store, bought the little piece of angled aluminum you see in the Citation and pop riveted it in. I sat in the car for a minute, looked at him, and said "hey, this is pretty nice". He'd been telling me to do it for a year or two. So he just rolled his eyes.

[Don Elzinga]

Thank you so much for the photo, Dick! I never imagined that thing was a "dead pedal". I have that in my car, too.

Sho, I would call that a heel rest. In this picture you can see my heel rest, my (from right to left in this top view) dead pedal, clutch, brake and throttle, and that my frame badly needs a fresh powder coat.

Don

[Dick R.]

Sho, I would call that a heel rest. In this picture you can see my heel rest, my (from right to left in this top view) dead pedal, clutch, brake and throttle, and that my frame badly needs a fresh powder coat.

Don

Wow. What a wide footwell.

Alternate to power coat: Rustoleum



Dick

[Barry Ott]

Ben, it won't take you a year to get used to it. It will take you 1 event. Trust the way Hewland recommends.

Really Ben, you can do it!! Maybe this will help: Think about loading the shifter first. If you do that, the shift will be over as soon as you lift, much faster than you can get the clutch all the way in. Maybe try it in the paddock, or going up to the start. Just load the shifter and lift. boom!

Ok, my goofy shifting story. I was trying to run an automatic Supra Turbo, just a friends car we were taking fun runs in. I *could NOT* shift it without "clutching", i.e. stabbing the brake pedal. Hilarious but pathetic! I came back to grid and told my friend about my problem. For the next runs, he rode with me, I'd yell "shift" as I lifted and he would move the shifter for me. We laughed a lot ... mostly at me!

So, there you go, even I figured out clutchless shifting, despite my obvious "issues". You can do it!

Barry

[Robert Puertas]

Actually, Ben, just don't think at all. That's where most people run into problems. They over-think it like you are doing.

Just shift with a tiny bit of focus on the H pattern. By which I mean, be just a little deliberate and don't try to set a speed shifting record. It's truly a piece of cake. Soon it'll be second nature and no thought will be required. Muscle memory is a glorious thing.

[Don Elzinga]

Wow. What a wide footwell.

Alternate to power coat: Rustoleum



Dick

I think that's exactly what a PO did, which is why the brake fluid has stripped it off in that area. In hindsight, I should have had the frame blasted and coated when I did the floorpan ~10yrs ago.

Don

[CM/FFdriver]

Actually, Ben, just don't think at all. That's where most people run into problems. They over-think it like you are doing.

Just shift with a tiny bit of focus on the H pattern. By which I mean, be just a little deliberate and don't try to set a speed shifting record. It's truly a piece of cake. Soon it'll be second nature and no thought will be required. Muscle memory is a glorious thing.

I will give a try this weekend, I'm sure I'll get it. I think what my concerns were my XR and it's crappy T9 transmission and shifting it in the heat of battle. So thanks to this thread and Dick R. I will be the .200 faster then last time.

Ben

[Dick R.]

So thanks to this thread and Dick R. I will be the .200 faster then last time.

Ben

Just what I didn't need . . .

Dick

[mwizard]

I tried up shifting sans clutch today. It worked fine when I remembered to not engage my left foot. I can see why someone mentioned putting in a dead peddle on the left. I don't think I have room.
Mark

[Dick R.]

I tried up shifting sans clutch today. It worked fine when I remembered to not engage my left foot. I can see why someone mentioned putting in a dead peddle on the left. I don't think I have room.
Mark

Probably just heel rest room assuming your footwell isn't any wider than mine.

I tried some no clutch in my neighborhood yesterday at moderate revs/speeds (5500 rpm, 50 mph, 0.7 g braking with my right foot as usual). Mostly fine up or down except one botched 2 - 3 due to driver. Even then the trans went into gear on the retry without the clutch which surprised me. The real question is whether the data at an autocross will see any improvement in acceleration times if I do this enough. My Race-Technology 20 Hz system will have enough detail.

Unless I can find a "real" place to practice locally I don't see left foot braking in competition in the near future . . . my left foot has been too dumb for threshold braking in the past.

Dick
CM 85

[CM/FFdriver]

Probably just heel rest room assuming your footwell isn't any wider than mine.

I tried some no clutch in my neighborhood yesterday at moderate revs/speeds (5500 rpm, 50 mph, 0.7 g braking with my right foot as usual). Mostly fine up or down except one botched 2 - 3 due to driver. Even then the trans went into gear on the retry without the clutch which surprised me. The real question is whether the data at an autocross will see any improvement in acceleration times if I do this enough. My Race-Technology 20 Hz system will have enough detail.

Unless I can find a "real" place to practice locally I don't see left foot braking in competition in the near future . . . my left foot has been too dumb for threshold braking in the past.

Dick
CM 85

I also tried in Mark car this weekend, much, much faster again thanks Dick R. for the info.

Ben

[mwood]

Bringing this back to life...

Left foot braking (LFB) seems the obvious way to go, given the no clutch shifting. I'm practicing, as I've never really been a LFB. I may be slower, initially, but I think it will be very beneficial in the CM car. Not only will it help on clutchless downshifts and balancing the car mid turn, it also means I don't have to fabricate a dead pedal

How many LFB and how many RFB?

[Robert Puertas]

Bringing this back to life...

Left foot braking (LFB) seems the obvious way to go, given the no clutch shifting. I'm practicing, as I've never really been a LFB. I may be slower, initially, but I think it will be very beneficial in the CM car. Not only will it help on clutchless downshifts and balancing the car mid turn, it also means I don't have to fabricate a dead pedal

How many LFB and how many RFB?

Not an option with size 13 shoes...
Crap, maybe I should have bought a bigger car!

[Don Elzinga]

How many LFB and how many RFB?

Only time I RFB is in a car with synchros in the trans.

Don

[Dick R.]

So far RFB in competition and LFB autotrans cars on the street. If I can get good with no clutch next priority may be LFBing. May get some kart experience to educate the left foot for "serious" braking. First priority however is to simply get the rust of my driving. Before learning new tricks I need to relearn the old tricks.

Dick

[Barry Ott]

LFB. When I first started trying it, I'd practice on the street: When approaching a red light, I'd put the car in neutral and LFB to a stop. Make sure nobody is behind you for the first couple tries ;-) Now it's just second nature, it's really hard NOT too.

Barry

[Dick R.]

LFB for me is easy on the street with an automatic. Do it 99% of the time. However I do not threshold brake on the street or any of the other more complicated braking needed in competition. The problem for me in the past has been learning to brake competitively with my left foot. It is just "dumb" after all these decades.

Dick

[DougW]

I left foot brake. It seemed to come naturally in the Swift. I used to left foot brake in my old FS Camaro (automagic tranny) so relearning wasn't too hard. The brakes stop the car RIGHT NOW. I am learning to just give them a little nudge and all is good. I probably need to go faster

The previous owner had the pedals staggered perfectly for left foot braking. I will say it is a tight fit for my size 9 4e feet. Wrestling shoes work well!

[Dick R.]

My feet are size 8 1/2 D. I use low top racing shoes for clearance. Just bought my 3rd pair since 1992.

Dick

[Locked]

RFB here.

[jdp526]

RFBing here because I wear a size 13 shoe and dont have much experience with LFB anyway. But I can toe and heel pretty easily in my Reynard. Clutchless shifting after leaving the line and once in a while our courses are fast enough to use third gear.

[Dick R.]

No clutch shifting quickly becomes addictive. At the Blytheville Pro and Tour I didn't use the clutch at all for the 1 - 2 upshifts for 8 practice starts, or for 1 - 2 and 3rd for 12 Pro runs, and 6 Tour runs. "Tried" to use the clutch after Nick broke a 16 tooth second gear on his first Pro run and I "couldn't do it". I missed on shift to third but that is more an interference issue between my wrist and a chassis brace. I'm going to try rotating the shifter slightly towards the steering wheel and hope this doesn't cause interference with steering.

FYI Mark (ex road race driver and crew) and Nick had the gear changed quick enough for Mark to get all four of his first heat Pro runs before the heat was finished. Color me impressed!!!! This included a relatively long "walk" for Mark back to their paddock space. Mark was "upset" that there was about one drop of gear oil on the underside of the trans in impound (not a leak, just some oil they missed when cleaning up in the rush to get to grid).

Dick
Slow but trying to get fast in CM

[mwizard]

I have been mostly clutchless shifting, too w/ good results, but sofar no opportunity to try down shifts
Mark

[mwood]

Mark, with our little courses and your gearing, you may never downshift...

I am running a four gear set up, so on our courses, I'm going 2-3 and 3-2 with frequency (did use 4th at the last AAS event). The clutchless upshifts feel/sound great, but I'm still heel/toe clutching on the downshifts. I guess, seeing as I RFB, it just seems easier to get a good rev match and disrupt the car less that way.

[mwizard]

Yesterdays course was 3 gear fast for me, but I could not get it in my head to try a clutchless downshift. Need a place to practice independent of a course.
Mark

[graz]

Yesterdays course was 3 gear fast for me, but I could not get it in my head to try a clutchless downshift. Need a place to practice independent of a course.
Mark

late reply i know but you can get a quickshifter system that does auto throttle blipping for clutch-less downshifts just Google clutch-less downshift system.
graz

[chrisw52]

After driving the car for a while, I find clutchless shifting quite easy.

Upshifts I just pull the gear shift into the next gear when the engine runs out

Downshifts are a simple matter of pulling the car out of gear at the same time you release the throttle to blip it for the downshift. when the car is out of gear, blip the throttle, and select the gear you want.