Dallara F3 Scam

[Smittty]

Just traveled to CA from FL to inspect/verify the condition of a DallaraF3. Seller held a $500 pre-inspection deposit, to be applied to purchase, pending a favorable inspection by me-our verbal agreement. Went out at my expense, on his day off no less, car difficult to start, backfiring, inoperable dash, thus no verifyable temps or pressures. Plus, I'm too tall for it as it is. We agreed to keep talking, he would chase down the issues, I came home. Subsequently I discovered major engine related issues, CPU issues, and undisclosed damage history. At this point, I advise I can't afford an 8K repair up front, as the car was advertised as "race ready at any track in America" and it is not, and that I would like a compromise or my deposit back. Seller says he'll "talk to his wife and get back" to me. To date have not seen my $500, he has been ignoring my calls and emails.
Apex Speed is based on member goodwill and honesty. Most members are, if this member won't honor his agreement with me, what else is he hiding about this car? BEWARE
Smitty
...if he does make the refund, I'll post same here.

[Paddy O'Brien]

Scam? You had better be careful about saying that. At least there was an actual car to look at, I have bought air-race cars before, THAT is a scam. Whenever I have sent or recieved a deposit for a street car or race car, I consider it spent,gone. But I would have recieved or given something in return, what was that for you? Go to court if you have a contract. Have you bought many race cars before?, rule #1, they are never sold race ready. Sorry Smitty, you sound like a whiney *****.

[Ian Lenhart]

First red flag should have been the $500 peep show. Why would you pay this? Your the buyer. You have travel expenses to deal with and if the seller really wants to sell the car, he should work around your schedule. Most guys in this community will go out of their way to make sure a potential buyer has a great buying experience. It sounds like this seller is either not a racer or has a personality of someone I wouldn't want to waste my time with let alone do business with because most likely it's over valued.

Sorry about your experience. Want to buy a racecar from me? Fly into Milwaukee and I'll pick you up from the airport and take you out for a beer after whatever amount of detailed inspection you would like.

[Rick Kirchner]

I know the seller, and although I've never done a business deal with him, I've also never had reason to believe he's dishonest.

The last time I remember the car on the track was in 2010 at Cal Speedway in the summer. Cars that have sat for a long time are pretty finicky.

It is a pretty beautiful machine. I remember walking around it with a bunch of other guys marveling at the build quality.

IIRC, he only drove it a couple of times.

[Ian Lenhart]

I just read Paddy Obrien's post since I was typing my response when he posted and also your thread posting. I was assuming the buyer asked for $500.00 from you to look at the car since you used the term "pre-inspection". Did the $500.00 guarantee you the car and the seller wouldn't sell it to another party without you backing out of the deal? If so, I do agree that the seller shouldn't be obligated to give back the money if he took the car off the market to accomodate you. I agree the car maybe not as represented, but the owner did say he would chase down the problem. I'm so confused because your not disclosing some details like a contract or ? OK, the seller in this case maybe a nicer guy then I originally thought and just had the unfortunate experience of showing the car and flipping the switch to his surprise - no start.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

This used to be my car and I don't know what the agreed deposit deal was between Smitty and the current owner, but here are a few facts on the car.

It's a 2000 USF3 car that is FS SCCA legal as it sits.
Motor has 2 weekends on it from brand new built to USF3 specs by Bertil. Sat a long time but has run fine during current owners use.
ECU has orig USF3 mapping, sometimes hard to start when it has sat a while and runs rich when not loaded, but works fine otherwise. Same ECU we use in the Zetecs.
PI-2 dash works 100% (even down loaded last session car ran)
Temp and psi sensors work fine, they had a bad connection, 5 minutes to fix.
Car has had 1 corner taken off since new (current owner didn't know about this when I sold him the car as I didn't know either)

Potential buyer called Quicksilver who mentioned that the mapping was not great and that the Bertil heads get cut too much and they can blow up. This may be true, but as mentioned before this motor has had no issues and was built to 2000 specs.

So this is what I know about the car, if anything mentioned above is false or if I got the facts wrong on something, please let me know Smitty. I hope you 2 can come to some agreement before this gets ugly.

Thanks, Dave

[DFR Dave Freitas]

This F3 Dallara is actually homoligated in SCCA as an FA, not an FS as I had written in the above post. The rules allow an 8 valve 2 litre VW engine.

If I was retired and wanted to go screw around at vintage and SCCA events, this would be my car. It as a spare motor (needs a freshening tho) about a million spare suspension pieces, a complete spare nose/wing assembly, just about 200 hp and only a couple hundred miles on the Taylor gearbox. It has a Pectel T2 ECU (they built the looms in Socal at Pectel, now Zentec) and a simple PI-2 dash/logger.

It hauls the mail, is easy to work on, and handles just like you imagine an F3 car would. Also, it's the only car my 13 year old wishes I hadn't sold...smart kid.

[jimh3063]

I've owned one of these cars. Sandy made a 2.2 liter engine that got homologated for it. If you look in the gcr and see the exception for the newer one that was done to facilitate my car.

They are extremely well built. Like no other formula car I've ever owned. There are a more of these cars running around than any other formula car out there albeit in Europe.

I'm guessing this was Ron's car. There are only 2 VW powered ones in the US. Oddly enough the starters are the Achilles heel of these cars. They come out of a VW 1.6 diesel Jetta. They puree the internals very easy. I always had a 5 gallon just of starter parts with us at all times.

If I didn't need to sell Dallara to buy a Radon I wouldn't have. I loved that car. Just needed the cash for the new F2000.

I know a lot about these cars if you have any questions.

Jimmy

[glenn cooper]

Just traveled to CA from FL to inspect/verify the condition of a DallaraF3. Seller held a $500 pre-inspection deposit, to be applied to purchase, ******pending a favorable inspection by me******************-our verbal agreement. Went out at my expense, on his day off no less, car difficult to start, backfiring, inoperable dash, thus no verifyable temps or pressures. Plus, I'm too tall for it as it is. We agreed to keep talking, he would chase down the issues, I came home. Subsequently I discovered major engine related issues, CPU issues, and undisclosed damage history. At this point, I advise I can't afford an 8K repair up front, as the ***********************car was advertised as "race ready at any track in America"********************

and it was not, go on...

and it is not, and that I would like a compromise or my deposit back. Seller says he'll "talk to his wife and get back"

And he's admitting that? Priceless!!


to me. To date have not seen my $500, he has been ignoring my calls and emails.
Apex Speed is based on member goodwill and honesty. Most members are, if this member won't honor his agreement with me, what else is he hiding about this car? BEWARE
Smitty
...if he does make the refund, I'll post same here.

Scam? You had better be careful about saying that. At least there was an actual car to look at, ***********************I have bought air-race cars before,***********

And you are givin' this fella a hard time? Friggin' priceless!

THAT is a scam. Whenever I have sent or recieved a deposit for a street car or race car, I consider it spent,gone.

Yep, if it is refered to as a "Non-refundable partial payment"

But I would have recieved or given something in return, what was that for you? Go to court if you have a contract. Have you bought many race cars before?, rule #1, they are never sold race ready.

Total BS right there, and I'm gonna call you on it: My FM was sold race ready, my last FB car the same, Keith Robert's RF99 VD, Russ Werner's FB car recently, Randy Mitchell's FB car, on and on...

Sorry Smitty, you sound like a whiney *****.

Of course he does - He had a crappy experience and is letting others know about it! Pretty douche-tastic if ya ask me

Car was not as represented.
If seller says it's all good, dude flys in from across the country and some things are not right he must be a whiney bee-otch!

[Smittty]

Hey folks,
Before you go too crazy... there are only two questions for me here. First - is this a "nice" car? Sure is . Great build quality, spares, extra wheels, decent shape visually. Not in dispute at all. Never was. Second, and more important is the agreement - verbal -that my deposit was to hold car temporarily to allow travel from the east coast, to inspect, and was to be returned if it did not meet my needs. That's it. Only. During my research, I discovered the weak head, and piston issues and Sandy's fix (Sandy sent me pics of the head problem and correction), and the crash damage. I inspected and it didn 't meet my needs, but the deposit has not been returned. That's it. You would not be reading this if it had been. I am sharing my experience and what I learned here so you guys would be better informed on the seller's practices and the car's mechanical condition, should any of you pick this one up. Might just save one of you a few bucks. That's it. Chillax.....

[Daryl DeArman]

I haven't bought or sold as many cars as many here, but I have bought/sold at least 20 and I've never given or taken a refundable deposit.

The whole concept of the deposit, in my mind, is to take the car temporarily off the market. Giving the buyer the right of first refusal so to speak.

Why would a seller accept a small deposit to take the car off the market/decline other offers for a week or so if the intent is to give the deposit back if the buyer changes their mind?

It would be one thing if the condition was misrepresented, another entirely if it just didn't look as good in person.

On edit---I don't know Rod, but did run with VARA for a few seasons and was politically active with the club. I never heard a bad word about him---for whatever that's worth---like any orgarnization there are a few I'd never do business with.

[Mark_Silverberg]

Actually the deposit protects both the buyer and the seller. If the seller gives sales terms and accepts the deposit then they are legally obligated to honor the stated terms as they have entered into a contract.

If a buyer sends a deposit and agrees to terms then the seller can also force the sale to the buyer (but most will just keep all or a portion of the deposit).


If a deposit is given to "take the car off the market" pending a vehicle inspection this falls into a grey area. It is not really a "deposit" but you are really paying for the first right of refusal on purchasing the car. If the seller kept his part of the bargin by not selling the car then they have completed their part of the agreement. Because the car was not (in your opinion) as advertised this is not really a legitimate claim against refund of the money. The seller could also legitimately retain expenses incurred for time and effort to re market the car after it was asked to be taken off the market.

This appears to be two different and reasonable interpretations of of a transaction. I would suggest in the future that if refund of the $500 is important to you then you explicitly include a written document with your check with exact terms and conditions. The seller would indicate they agree to the terms and conditions by depositing the check.

[protoform]

If someone wants a deposit on a car so that I can look at it. Ill Pass thank you

[lbrtruck]

Have we heard from the Dallara owner yet ? I would like to hear the other side of the story.

[Daryl DeArman]

If someone wants a deposit on a car so that I can look at it. Ill Pass thank you

The other side of the coin is you decide you want to take a look at it yourself or hire a professional to do so....get there and find out it's been sold. If enough costs are involved to look at it, a deposit makes sense. We aren't talking about a $5K FV on the other coast.

[rod o'connor]

Well the owner finally speaks. This is all I will say, I do not want to get caught up in endless discussions. I had two interested parties in the car and I told both of them the same thing. The first person who gives me a deposit gets it until then it is for sale. Smitty said I want the car I will send you a deposit. The only caveat was he wanted to come out and inventory all the extra parts to insure the shipper delivered everything to him and to do a compression check on the engine. He sent $500 and I told the other party it was sold. Smitty shows up and spends the entire day going over the car inside, outside, under it, he inventory's all the parts and I run the car for him. Yes the water and oil temp gauges were eratic and I promised him I would fix them before the shipper came. (it was a broken ground wire). After he left I had my mechanic Dave Freitas (From Dave Freitas Racing) a professional formula race team owner. Perhaps one of the most knowledgeable guys on the west coast with formula cars come over . Dave checked the dash and ran the car. It runs perfect. Dave spent a half hour on the phone with this guy insuring him it is absolutely fine. The next day Smitty calls me and states for the first time that he wants to race it in FA class. I told him it is not an FA it is an F3 as advertised. He says Sandy at Quicksilver told him he could convert it to an FA legal motor for about $9,000. and that I should pay for it. I never advertised this car as an FA legal car. This guy also states that he is an SCCA tech inspector, yet he does not know the difference between an F3 and an FA car. As far as the car having damage, Two things 1)imagine that, a twelve year old open wheel race car that has had a corner torn off once. Who would ever guess and 2) It was evidently just the a-arms because Dave Freitas nor I could find one shred of evidence that it ever happened and Dave took the whole car apart a few months ago to paint it. NO EVIDENCE OF ANY DAMAGE! Finally this guy wasted my time and Dave Freitas's time. Case closed. P.S. I will be racing this "Wreck" as it is at Autoclub Speedway next month with its torn off corner and sour motor.

[carnut169]

Selling a race car can definately be interesting... at least you still have a killer car.

[jimh3063]

I've sold a lot of race cars. Most people are tired kickers, time wasters or people who want something for nothing. Sadly it just goes with the territory.

Jimmy

[RobLav]

It seems to me that the gist of the problem is misunderstanding / miscommunication between Smitty and Rod as to the purpose and intent of the "deposit". If money changes hands, there needs to be a written agreement. Otherwise disputes like this can occur. I know Smitty well and have raced with him for over a decade. Yes, he is a tech inspector and does know the difference between an FS and an FA. We discussed this car on the phone, and he was talking about running it in FS but also potentially running in FA with a better engine. It's too bad this did not go through because it would have been a great car for him - to start in FS with the current engine then potentially run later in FA. Since there is a misunderstanding between the parties involved, I recommend a compromise and a return of half the "deposit". I would have rather seen Smitty with the car.

[carnut169]

I've sold a lot of race cars. Most people are tired kickers, time wasters or people who want something for nothing. Sadly it just goes the territory.

Jimmy

Yes! Welcome to my life lately.

[Smittty]

I stand by my posts. Please re-read Dave's comments of March8, 9 and the seller's recent post. Daryl, you are on the mark. Seems to me that as I discovered more about the seller's car, he got upset, wouldn't respond to compromise, went dark, wouldn't refund my deposit. I ponied up the 500+ for airfare/hotel, at my peril, to view; he agreed to hold pending my approval for a refundable deposit. I did my part, we couldn't reach a midpoint, I expected him to honor his side of the agreement, to date he has not. When he returns my deposit, I will post that action here. In the meantime,....
Thought you might be interested in pics of the head overcut issues (see Dave's comment above) on these Bertil's motors. This is an original head (see very narrow web between cyl's, prone to head gasket leaks) and the built up QS fix. According to QS, this car, and it's spare have not been "fixed" by them. Put this in the mix, if you are considering this car.....or not.

[jimh3063]

I would add as someone who owned the other of these two cars, you really want the 2.1 motor from Sandy. The difference is very noticeable. It's legal in FA and goes well. The stock F3 motor is a bit of a dog.

The chassis themselves are great. They are like no US built formula car. Quality from one end to the other. You can get a bunch of different motor fitting kits for them as well. That chassis can fit a Mercedes, Honda ,Toyota, Ford duratec, etc. If I kept my car, I was looking at either a Ford or Honda as a replacement when the time came. The motor Sandy built never failed me. It just is out of potential and won't keep up with a 4AGE in a straight line. The starters on those cars oddly enough are it's Achilles heel. They are junk.

Again, I'm talking from a standpoint of being a former owner of one not someone looking.
I only sold my car to buy my Radon. If I hadn't purchased it, I would have never sold my car.

Jimmy

[Rick Kirchner]

I'm calling a BS foul on the premise that you "found major engine issues" What you found was the opportunity for a mod to fix an issue that hasn't come up yet. Apparently nothing wrong with the engine as stands, just something you thought you could shame the seller into doing for you, at great additional expense (30% of the deal!), by griping about it on this site.

this thread ought to be locked, it's just a b!tc# fest.

[formulasuper]

............Thought you might be interested in pics of the head overcut issues (see Dave's comment above) on these Bertil's motors. This is an original head (see very narrow web between cyl's, prone to head gasket leaks).......

Ergo... the Hayabusa engine in my RT5.

[Bill Bonow]

this thread ought to be locked, it's just a b!tc# fest.

In monitoring this thread from the begining, I'm thinking that Rick is correct.

I think calling this a "scam" is where the problem comes in. Scam tells me that the seller is looking to profit from taking your $500. The idea of having a Dallara F3 car as the "bait" to take your $500 is ridiculous. The $500 was a deposit, not a con.

As a racer who has blown up thousands of dollars worth of Bertil Sollenskog water cooler Super Vee engines, there is no sursprise to me in your photos. However, the car you were interested on buying did not have an issue, just the potential for an issue. Those are not photos of the head on the car you were going to purchase. At this point, this is more "sour grapes" on a car deal that did not go as both parties wished.

There is no value to this post beyond mud slinging.

Doug can reopen this if he sees differently