Radios and Comms Help Needed

[RobLav]

You guys have any recommendations for radios? Never communicated in a race car before!

- UHF or VHF? I recall UHF is more line of sight and a somewhat lower range
- 4 watt or 5 watt?
- Brand? Motorola? Kenwood?
- Antenna mounting in car? Where, how? - ground plane?
- Mics and earbuds?

Any help and comments appreciated. Need to buy a set soon.

What I do know is radio communication protocol. But I doubt that will help much figuring out what to get and how to install.

[TimW]

VHF has a better 'over hill & dale' range and the signal is less susceptible to absortion by trees between radios. However, there use to be lots of overlapping traffic on the VHF band that most pro teams start to look at UHF and go up from there (Penske was on a semi-public band in the 800s back in the day, which was somewhat controversial back then).

I prefer Motorola and have used the CP200 units which are kinda overkill for the application but its nice to have something that just always works, is rugged and is small. More watts better; but it cost more money. A 5 w handheld will serve as good as feasible for places like Canada corner, if ever necessary

I bought my loom from Sampson racing in Ventura County, CA. Rumor has it they manufacture for Racing Radios and the other big name vendors.

Yes, ground plane is good. Also good to isolate radio ground from car ground, which is not that hard to do on a fiberglass (vs carbon) car.

[Rick Kirchner]

I also bought my harness and radios from sampson. I bought an FRS kit, back when they were very low power. They are 5x the range now and I wouldn't hesitate to buy a system based on the newer FRS stuff. If you need a new radio they are under a hundred bucks a pair.

[GeoffRain]

Hi Rob,

Lots of advice for you -

I'd stay away from FRS or GRMS personally. Get the "real" business style radios. I prefer UHF for the smaller antenna. I have some of the cheaper UHF units that R.E. used to sell - they're rebranded Kenwoods and they are fine. I also have some BlackBox (Or HYT TC-500, same thing) radios that work well and are pretty rugged and are cheap on eBay. Motorola is very nice, but a little expensive.

There is very little difference in coverage between 4 and 5 watts, don't sweat it. Antenna goes as high as you can get it, and needs a ground plane to work well. I agree with Tim that I'd avoid joining the antenna ground with chassis ground.

Mics & earbuds well.. I'll let someone else chime in as I've been using my iPod earbuds. I don't recommend that.

You'll also need to decide what you're doing about licensing. Technically most of the business band requires an expensive license to transmit. The UHF radios will tune to the GMRS frequencies, but that's not legal and there is a (cheaper) license there as well. I've got a feeling that a lot of our group just ignores the issue altogether.

[RobLav]

Thanks for the comments guys. I just read the UHF licensing rules for countries all over the world. US is over 4 watts, but there is some funky factor in the equation so it is effectively slightly higher than 5. Under that, and it looks like we are OK. I was looking at a 20 watt system at Sampson and was wondering about licensing. Seems to me 20 watts is overkill anyway. It also means more power requirement from the batteries.

What's the difference between an IMSA setup and a NASCAR helmet setup? Looks to me like it is primarily a different Mic.

[GeoffRain]

IMSA and NASCAR setups have different plugs at the helmet. NASCAR uses a 1/4" phono plug (like full-size headphones) while IMSA uses a shorter plug with 4 conductors. The NASCAR style seems more common, which makes the IMSA one more cool.

I'm not sure where you're reading licensing rules but it's a lot more complicated than that. Probably doesn't matter though for the tracks we run at, off in the boonies.

20 watts won't get you around obstructions much better than 5 will (like when you're in the bowl at NHMS). Even if it did, the other radio is only 5 watts so your crew won't be able to talk back to you. The radio will use more battery like you said, and will be bigger / harder to mount.

[Rick Kirchner]

6db=2xrange. 5w+6db=20W, so it takes 20W to double the range over 5W. Personally, I don't worry much about obstacles or depressions, your crew can't see what you are doing there, so they might as well wait until you can be seen to talk. In actual use, extra power or antenna gain really just gives margin since you are rarely outside the thermal range of any modern radio system, even FRS.

[Bob Wheless]

Guy's what do you do about a ground and plane on a carbon car? [body not chassie ].. Thanks for your time,,,,bob wheless

[Bob Wright]

Rob- call:
Racing Electronics (shameless plug; they're an associate sponsor of our Series)
Racing Radios
Speedcom (great guys to work with)
Racing Communications

Describe what your application is and get quotes on a system. They will set you up with exactly what you need.

My 2c- UHF for sure, Motorola CP 200 radios w/private channel, the crew chief radio set up for scanning the Series frequency. You probably only need 2 channels, but most have more. I actually use the rubber duck antenna in the car, rather than a remote- it works quite well and is much less complicated. I'm a great believer in simplicity.

[TimW]

Guy's what do you do about a ground and plane on a carbon car? [body not chassie ].. Thanks for your time,,,,bob wheless

Usually, where the antenna goes there is a section of kevlar only bodywork. If you see any winter testing photos where the car is still carbon and unpainted (google image search not giving me any yet) you'll usually see a yellow kevlar patch in the body work on the shock cover or on the sidepod cover. This is where the antennae are installed (and ground planes below).

HTH

Tim

[TTMRacing]

I second, Speedcom.

[RobLav]

This is why ApexSpeed and the formula crowd is so great. I received tons of responses to my questions.

As to Bob Wrights's comment about simplicity, I've always been totally on board with that. Somehow though, I will have to now manage new Hans, data system, camera, and radios all at the same time.

[Richard Dziak]

Rob:

In my Phoenix F1000 I use Racing Electronics Motorola CP 200 Radios. I have the mic built into the helmet and my wife who is my primary pit crew has the headset and the radio held on a belt holder. I have the antenna mounted on the shock cover and a copper ground plane about 10 inches in diameter on the underside of the shock cover. I have never had any problems communicating with her, when she is located high in the bleachers or stands on any of the tracks I have raced.

The use of radios between driver and spotter/or pit crew is invaluable. I know when other cars are entering the track, when debris might be on the track, and my wife is constantly letting me know where cars are on the track or another is quickly approaching. I have a push to talk button on the steering wheel. The whole set up is easy to install, and great to use.

As for the helmet microphone, you will have to drill a few holes into the helmet to secure fasteners to hold the wiring for the mic.

I like the Racing Electronics set up as these guy know there stuff and are the number one supplier of radios to NASCAR and other racing venues here in the USA.

They have a very easy to read catalog on-line. The radios are not cheap.

I have my Phoenix F1000 for sale as my racing days have come to an end. I might be willing to sell the RE Motorola CP 200 radios separately.

Never the less, I will shoot a few photos of my setup in my formula car and the ground plane, so you may see how I have it set up. I will be back home on Sunday and can get a few photos posted here then.

The radios are a great idea, and I have no regrets spending the money for them and they have been great for additional safety reasons.

Difference between IMSA and NASCAR is the plug system and wiring harness that is used with radio set up.

I have NEVER had any problems with using the radios at the track, nor do I have any licenses to operate them as I only use them at the track. I think I have 4 channels total on the CP 200.

[Richard Dziak]

Attached are a few photos of the ground plane setup used on my Phoenix F1000. The ground plane is a thin sheet of copper 8 to 10" in diameter and secured with silicone. The white cable in the photo is the antenna cable that plugs into the radio mounted in the cockpit of the F1000. The ground plane and antenna is located on the shock cover of my F1000.

[starfmguy]

And be sure to get "narrow banded" radios which use a 12.5 KHz bandwidth, rather than the older/current 25 KHz bandwidth, if possible. The FCC is requiring this for all "public safety and industrial/business licensees" starting January 1st, 2013, to get more efficiency out of the current system. This covers both VHF & UHF.

You may start seeing a lot of radios on the market pretty cheap this year, like older Motorola P-50 and GP-300 radios, that cannot be upgraded to the narrow banding. The FCC says these wide band radios should be taken out of service by 2013.

This may be somewhat moot, as most racers ((do not have licenses and)) only operate occasionally at "isolated" race tracks, so there is not much "interference" with commercial uses. Hopefully they will not come looking for us.....((I hope Big Brother's web monitoring does not catch this post!!))

Just be aware of this, and make an informed decision. Even if you don't have a license, it is good to not draw attention to yourself, by keeping a clean and low profile by following the current rules... and you may avoid interference from a new overlapping frequency.

(I just bought 2 new Motorola CP200 UHF radios and they are awesome. Not cheap, but my last Motorola radios worked for nearly 20 years without any problems. Quality and realiability are a great thing in racing!)