US vs Canada vs UK vs Anywhere else

[jhenn4716]

What are the differences between FV here in the US versus in other parts of the world? Being technology from the 60's with parts that are almost as old, how have other areas of the world dealt with some of the same issues we're dealing with here? Or do they even have the same issues? In terms of cost of parts, involvement in racing, continuity of the class.

[nbrigido]

What are the differences between FV here in the US versus in other parts of the world? Being technology from the 60's with parts that are almost as old, how have other areas of the world dealt with some of the same issues we're dealing with here? Or do they even have the same issues? In terms of cost of parts, involvement in racing, continuity of the class.

Our cars are basically the same in Canada and the US, many race in both countries. From what i know and understand. Basic car is the Same, we use spec tire, we are not allowed fancy manifolds, no fire system required for us, no arm restraints. Our Minimun weight is 1075 going to 1100 (but could be wrong) Wheels and tires are a big weight factor for us.

Aside of that, I think we are the same, Same engine, same brakes, same beams. You get the point.

Are parts harder to get, every year that goes by and every Vee that crashes, one less part of something.

[Bill Bonow]

Jeff,

In New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Germany, Sweeden, UK, Ireland, Brazil and Mexico, the formula has progressed. In most cases, that progression happend 20 or more years ago. The amount of progression varies from country to country. However, the progression was driven mostly from parts availability.

In some places (like South Africa and Germany), VW subsidized the major component changes (air to water cooled). In other places (like Australia and New Zealand) the changes were out of pocket and designed by the class members.

The internet is a wonderful thing. You can find out loads of detailed info with minimal searching.

[jhenn4716]

Then why are we trying to reinvent the wheel? If so many countries and programs have moved forward, why are we sitting here squabbling over what to do?

[Bill Bonow]

Jeff,

In all these discussions (various topics), Greg Rice seem to have the best point (my opinion). The time for FV to progress has passed. This wonderful 50 year old class is on the back side of the bell curve. I see the change(s) as being more important to retain the people you have as the ratio of "newbies to people leaving" is way lop-sided (a guess at 1:5 per year?).

The class is great and has a huge history. I'd say the class should do what it can to continue to survive for a long time. Add weight and find a hard tire. Even if the hard tire is used on a regional basis, it will help.

[jhenn4716]

Bill,

Okay I'll bite, so the assumption could be that FV should just keel over and die a slow painful death and a certain other class should take over? If FV can survive in every other part of the world, in various forms, then why can't it survive here?

I may be new to driving a race car, but certainly not new to racing. But the more I read about FV vs FST, the more I come to believe the split of FV and FST could possibly be the worse thing that has happened to FV in the last 10 years. But that is my opinion, and those like *******s, everyone has one.

Be that as it may, I for one will not sit idly by and watch the class I want to race in die. Someone mentioned grabbing the bull by the horns. Well this is one driver who plans on doing that.

And thanks for the advice, I'm looking at the different forms of FV in other countries. Take a look at FV in Mexico. Hell, they have wings on their cars.

Enough for now, I need to do more research.

[Bill Bonow]

Be that as it may, I for one will not sit idly by and watch the class I want to race in die. Someone mentioned grabbing the bull by the horns. Well this is one driver who plans on doing that.

I do wish you the best of luck with your quest. FWIW, that is exactly how "it" got started 10 years ago.

[Steve Bamford]

Bill,

Okay I'll bite, so the assumption could be that FV should just keel over and die a slow painful death and a certain other class should take over? If FV can survive in every other part of the world, in various forms, then why can't it survive here?

Enough for now, I need to do more research.

I am guessing you will find numbers for FV down around the world, but I could be wrong. FV needs strong regional groups to survive. Too many classes in the US I believe also is not helping FV & many other classes. If you search other countries also look to see what other open wheel options there are.

[Bill Bonow]

I am guessing you will find numbers for FV down around the world, but I could be wrong.

Steve,

The information I get from contacts in New Zealand, Australia, Ireland and the UK is that their numbers are up. In all fairness, the NZ and AUS economy is currently strong. I don't have good contacts in the other countries, but the websites keep getting updated and improved. Can't be doing too bad.

Here is a shot from a NSW State Championship (Regional equivalent). This is a mix of FV 1600 and FV 1200 cars (80/20 ratio).

[nbrigido]

Now that looks like it would be a fun race

[Matt King]

When you look at the demographics of the racers in FV today, there are quite a few who have been in it for 25-30 years and even longer. Those guys were in their prime when the class was at its peak, and it doesn't surprise me that they aren't interested in any significant changes to the formula that has worked for almost 50 years. But how many of them will still be racing in another 5-10 years? If the class survives that long, and I'm sure it will, the participation numbers will probably be lower, but the remaining population of racers may be composed of people more open to a major evolution of the class. So what I'm saying is, if you're under 50, have patience and wait it out! Just keep your fingers crossed that we will still have any disposable income left to go racing after we pay for all the baby boomers on social security and medicaid.

[Tiago Santos]

Matt, I think we'll always be waiting. I used to be completely FOR a change in FV to pretty much what FST is. This was before I had 2 motors, a couple of beams, a few sets of wheels, a spare set of backing plates, etc. If we were to evolve the class significantly, I'd have a couple grand worth of spares turn to dust In 10 years, if we keep going the way we are, I'm sure I'll have even more crap and I'll be one of the ones asking to keep the status quo!

[Matt King]

You're probably right. Maybe by then "It" will be bigger than FV.

[Bill Bonow]

"It" already is in CenDiv Regional entry numbers

[Steve Bamford]

Sure didnt take you guys long to wander off track as to what this thread is about...what is working in other countries or so I thought. I sure see a lot of talk about FST again. Similar arguements could be made for other classes as well, can't we just stay on FV?

[Bill Bonow]

Steve,

This whole thread is posted in the wrong section anyway. The international section is down south

[jhenn4716]

Sure didnt take you guys long to wander off track as to what this thread is about...what is working in other countries or so I thought. I sure see a lot of talk about FST again. Similar arguements could be made for other classes as well, can't we just stay on FV?

Thanks for someone trying to stay on track, the boys from the south don't seem to get that part.

If you want to see an interesting FV, take a look at Mexico. Though it does look more like a Super Vee. Many area seem to run both 1200 and 1600 motors, with a different weight classification for each motor.

Perhaps something like that could be used here, with those wanting more weight opting for the 1600 engine. Those who've excelled at the 1200 could stay there.

Majority of other countries all seem to run some version of a treaded tire. Looks like we're one of the few places that has a slick. Anyone know what types of tire that is used? Is it similar to the tire that's run in Canada?

[Bill Bonow]

Jeff,

Just as a point/correction, Tiago and Matt are both current SCCA FV racers. I could be wrong, but I also think that both are not all that interested in going "south". So the "boys" is really just me and believe me, I do "get that part".

This thread (your author) is about FV abroad. That technically belongs in the FST section. I did not move it as it would most likely be taken the wrong way. But be informed this thread belongs in a different section.

I will leave this thread in its current location, but as a member of Apex (not a mod) I will comment as I see fit. Especially when facts are needed.

As for my opinion in general on FV, please look up to my post # 5

[problemchild]

Bill,

Okay I'll bite, so the assumption could be that FV should just keel over and die a slow painful death and a certain other class should take over? If FV can survive in every other part of the world, in various forms, then why can't it survive here?

I may be new to driving a race car, but certainly not new to racing. But the more I read about FV vs FST, the more I come to believe the split of FV and FST could possibly be the worse thing that has happened to FV in the last 10 years. But that is my opinion, and those like *******s, everyone has one.

Be that as it may, I for one will not sit idly by and watch the class I want to race in die. Someone mentioned grabbing the bull by the horns. Well this is one driver who plans on doing that.

And thanks for the advice, I'm looking at the different forms of FV in other countries. Take a look at FV in Mexico. Hell, they have wings on their cars.

Enough for now, I need to do more research.

A bit of history is in order. The FV community has overwhelmingly fought change for the last 20 years that this evolution talk has been around.

In Canada, it was 1980 that we explored 13" street tires and 81 that they became spec. More recently, Bill Vallis and I initiated our own intake manifold rule for F1200 which stopped the "rule bending" advancements before they infiltrated our area. The class thrives with an active driver association and good race tracks close to a major metropolitan area. Both were pro-active activities, which kept the animals in the barn ... because as we all know, once they get out ......

With the decline of SCCA racing in general, the economy, and the general attitude of FV racers, I believe any significant evolution will be unsuccessful. The FST package is very complete and partial applications would be very inefficient in terms of cost and application.

The best way to protect FV, is to manage FV wisely. Increasing the minimum weight and adopting a National spec tire program would eliminate half the attraction of other classes such as FST.

[jhenn4716]

Jeff,

Just as a point/correction, Tiago and Matt are both current SCCA FV racers. I could be wrong, but I also think that both are not all that interested in going "south". So the "boys" is really just me and believe me, I do "get that part".

This thread (your author) is about FV abroad. That technically belongs in the FST section. I did not move it as it would most likely be taken the wrong way. But be informed this thread belongs in a different section.

I will leave this thread in its current location, but as a member of Apex (not a mod) I will comment as I see fit. Especially when facts are needed.

As for my opinion in general on FV, please look up to my post # 5

Bill,

I totally respect your opinion and experience in FV/FST. But I think we can agree to disagree on the future. As far as this thread in the wrong location I couldn't disagree more. I'm asking about how FV is run other areas. Looking at their programs how they dealt with some of the same problems we are, seeing how we can change our program.

I get the impression that some may think the only solution for the future of FV is to just change into FST. I just want to explore other options.

Jeff

[Bill Bonow]

As far as this thread in the wrong location I couldn't disagree more. I'm asking about how FV is run other areas. Looking at their programs how they dealt with some of the same problems we are, seeing how we can change our program.

FV on an international (non-North American) level (because of it being generally closer kin to FST) is located here:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=125

This is your thread topic, but that is where this topic belongs

[Hardingfv32]

I'm asking about how FV is run other areas. Looking at their programs how they dealt with some of the same problems we are, seeing how we can change our program.

And they are tell you that other countries all solve their 'problem' by developing cars that are essentially FST.

The majority of current US FV owners do not see a 'problem', so there is no need for major change.

It is as simple as that!

Brian

[jhenn4716]

And they are tell you that other countries all solve their 'problem' by developing cars that are essentially FST.

The majority of current US FV owners do not see a 'problem', so there is no need for major change.

It is as simple as that!

Brian

Brian,

While some areas have taken the approach of FST, not all areas have totally embraced that concept.

When it comes to the "majority" it is more a majority of influence and politics than a true majority of the drivers.

If I have learned anything on Apex, it is most certainly NOT simple.

Jeff

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Deleted

[Matt King]

Apparently, your hanging out with the other majority.

IMO, most active FV racers belong to the Silent Majority and I'm not sure anyone really has a handle on what they think, other than the obvious conclusion that they wouldn't still be racing in FV if they thought it needed wholesale changes.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Deleted

[Matt King]

Matt,

Raising weight is not a "Wholesale Change"

Wrong thread. This one is about comparing FV in the US to FV in other countries, most of which have adopted changes that anyone would deem "wholesale," even radical.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Matt,

Good point.

All of these threads are running together in my mind.........

[Bill Bonow]

I'd say that Mexican FV with wings qualifies as radical change.

I'm sure Jeff had all the best intentions with this thread topic, but it seems to have served little purpose other than getting some folks jacked up. I keep hoping it will die.

Give me a couple thumbs down and it will go into the black hole (special thread area for posts like this).

[jhenn4716]

I'd say that Mexican FV with wings qualifies as radical change.

I'm sure Jeff had all the best intentions with this thread topic, but it seems to have served little purpose other than getting some folks jacked up. I keep hoping it will die.

Give me a couple thumbs down and it will go into the black hole (special thread area for posts like this).

I really don't understand this process on Apex. If I start a topic about apples, I would expect people to talk about Fuji, golden delicious and my favorite Macintosh. Instead people want to talk about every other fruit but apples. Let's talk about an apple pear, that's sort of like an apple.

Do whatever you want with this thread, it appears I can't get any help from it anyway. I came here trying to learn more about racing and only learned about bad behavior.

[Bill Bonow]

I really don't understand this process on Apex.

Jeff,

One last try.

The process is simple and you have successfully posted a question which a number of people have tried to answer.

If I start a topic about apples, I would expect people to talk about Fuji, golden delicious and my favorite Macintosh. Instead people want to talk about every other fruit but apples. Let's talk about an apple pear, that's sort of like an apple.

Your asking about FV in other countries. I have spent a considerable amount of time and energy to understand FV on a global basis (it's sort of a hobby of mine). Most of the other countries have changed rules long, long ago and some never even used the USA version of the rules to start. The FST guys reviewed exactly what your asking about 10 years ago. We stole most of the ideas for the class from other countries. FST is nothing more than FV with more modern parts. Think of FST as FV Mk 2.

It has been pointed out in many, many posts that those who wish to upgrade their FV have the FST (or FV Mk 2) option. I'm not sure where your missing that part of the equation. I sure hoping your not thinking of a third FV class, because I think wings on an FV is going to go over like (multiple choice):

a) a fart in church
b) a screen door submarine
c) a turd in a punchbowl

(I used this in the "tire brand" thread and liked it so much, I couldn't help myself to use it again )

I can't get any help from it anyway.

I'm trying very hard to get you the info requested, but it sure seems that you keep rejecting it as push towards FST (FV Mk 2)

and only learned about bad behavior.

Not sure I understand this one at all. I re-read through the whole thread and having trouble with the bad behavior. No personal attacks in the thread

[sracing]

But the more I read about FV vs FST, the more I come to believe the split of FV and FST could possibly be the worse thing that has happened to FV in the last 10 years..

I THINK you asked about what has happened to FV in other parts of the world. Most have made changes, (most several years ago.) Most of those changes have been to newer parts and tires etc. (For the same reason and with similar parts FST was created.)

There really has been no SPLIT of FV and FST. FST was started as a regional class on it's own. The only reason that one would consider it a split is that you CAN take a FV and convert it. In fact most? of the FV cars running today are purposebuilt FST's. Most of the drivers are either new to SCCA racing or were generally inactive in FV or other classes. (or planning to be so.) The "split" has not affected FV in any way to speak of. (Other than some racers now saying that they are going to change. Racers change from class to class many times and back.) Dozens have moved from FV to FF, FST and even SM. I don't think anyone considers them as splitting the class.

There is never going to be a thread that stays stable being FV ONLY. Any changes or discussion about FV in other parts of the world are going to involve discussing the types of changes that FST made.

I am not sure why some people get upset when "FST" is mentioned. It's a different class.

And to the contrary, it is a class that mixes well in a run group with FV. unlike FF, F500, F600, etc. Given that (thus far) FST has not taken from the FV ranks, it would seem FST should be welcomed with open arms (by the FV regional communinty.)(and would be of no concern at all to the FV National guys.)

[sracing]

and,, I like the refreshing truth from Tiago. He likes FST but has now invested in FV and would hesitate to change. A valid position. One of the few honest ones.

I also have a lot of FV parts in stock. I don't want the Vee guys to convert. (until I am out of parts, )

[jhenn4716]

Im at work at the moment and the small keypad on my phone prevents a proper reply. Thank you Bill and Jim for your recent posts.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and under the mutual understanding that we all have the final same motivation, fun racing and good friends.

[jhenn4716]

FV on an international (non-North American) level (because of it being generally closer kin to FST) is located here:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=125

This is your thread topic, but that is where this topic belongs

Now Bill, you could have mentioned that sooner.. but it's okay. Perhaps I could have been doing my homework in the international section and brought it back to here. The question really is how to take what works overseas and apply it here at home. We're both moving in the same direction so either way it's getting the job done.

[jhenn4716]

Now that I'm finally sitting at a real keyboard I can respond to the last few posts. I would ask that if you have an issue, comment, or concern about an opinion I write please feel free to PM or email me. We can talk at great length there and not cloud up the thread.

I see 4 groups of people in vw racing in the US.

The first group is experienced, realized a problem, and influenced a change that became FST.

The second group is experienced, did not see a problem, and influenced the status quo.

The third group has varying levels of experience, realizes there is a problem, and wants to explore options for fixing it. I fall into this group.

The fourth group has varying levels of experience, isn't sure of a problem, really just wants to race. They'll do what needs to be done, within reason, to keep racing. This is the true silent majority. They may not speak up, and in doing so never get heard.

Right now we have two classes based on the same car concept. I certainly don't want a third class. That would only speed up the death of all classes involved. In a perfect world I would like to see just one class, but that ship has already sailed.

I think what many of us are expressing is to look into viable options for the future of FV that does not involve conversion to FST. FST may offer a package that addresses some of the future concerns, but without a National program isn't quite a complete package as it could be. That was what made me post this question in the first place. Seeing FV raced in other areas, how could what worked for them work for us. While some areas have also embraced the FST concept, Australia being a good example, there are others that have embraced other options.

As for the bad behavior, within this thread there was no personal attacks. But it doesn't require personal attacks to be behaving badly. It's more an attitude in the hopes of open communication that sometimes falls to the wayside. And there in lies the bad behavior.

But in the end we are moving forward, we have established a dialogue. The more I research on FV racing outside the US, the more questions I'll have for you Bill. It's kind of funny really, you look at how quiet this forum has been prior to the last three major threads being posted. Now it's a hot bed of activity. That's what we all needed, a sharp poke in the eye to wake us up.

[Matt King]

If FV was to adopt any significant changes beyond a small increase in minimum weight or perhaps the adoption of a spec tire on the current wheels, it would make even less sense to have both classes. Any move toward adopting the 1600 engine, disc brakes, balljoint beam, or any other newer-style stock VW parts in a US-based FV class would beg the obvious question of a merger. What seems to be the sticking point is the idea of a mass move by FV into FST. So I would suggest that a more likely outcome from a political standpoint is the eventual move to a common middle ground. Not sure what the exact details of that might be, but I think it will require the appearance of a little give and take on the rules from both sides for the two classes to ever become one.

[jhenn4716]

Totally agree with you on that Matt, in the end I think the only choice is to merge the two classes. But how that would happen is the question. And which class is going to give up what?

[Bill Bonow]

Now Bill, you could have mentioned that sooner..

Sorry Jeff, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I thought I pointed it out in posts #16, #18, #21 and #31, but maybe I missed something in the details.

The question really is how to take what works overseas and apply it here at home. We're both moving in the same direction so either way it's getting the job done.

I thought I covered that one in post #7, again, maybe I was not clear enough. As posted in many threads, FST is the update/upgrade of FV. It is a separate class and will live or die on its own merits. The idea of proposing major changes to FV (what has been done in many countries overseas) is simply not going to fly here in the USA (or Canada?). We are not moving in the same direction. We moved 10 years ago and since '09 have our own stable (more so than FV) GCR rules.

Merger of the two is not going to happen. Just as FV would need to spend major coin to upgrade, FST would need to spend major coin to downgrade, even if there were such a place as a middle ground. After 20 years in FV and 10 years in FST, I am comfortable in stating that technically, there is no middle ground. If there was, that is what FST would be.

As one of the main muckady mucks in FST, I'll state my position again. FV should stay as is, no major changes. The only changes should be to raise the weight and find a hard tire.

[jhenn4716]

Telling me and showing me are two entirely different things. Sometimes what is clear for one person isn't clear for another.

I know I am not the only one who isn't yet ready to take on FST as the future of FV. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It won't hurt to let us try to find other alternatives. Maybe it's just the stages of denial.. who knows. You're comfortable in your FST, leave us to find our way in our FV's.