New FV Minimum Weight

[FVRacer21]

One of the topics that came up in another thread is raising the minimum weight for FV.

Here is what I am challenging everyone to do.

Make a recommendation as to what the minimum weight of FV should be and back it up with any statistics you want.

No comparison to any other class, no name calling, no overweight jokes. Just a logical argument. In a week we can all write our letters to the Comp Board and with luck this issue will be in place for 2013.

Here is my argument. I would like to see the limit raised to 1040. While my car (Citation) can get down to minimum weight, it involves running it almost out of fuel. Last time I ran it, I came in around 1040 having started with a full tank and about 10 lbs of ballast. Side protection is Kevlar, although I will need to add a few pounds when I refinish the body. This would also allow me to add some more anti-intrusion bars or a taller roll hoop. This year we will have to have Hans devices and the optional wheels could also add weight. It has been about 15 years since the weight was adjusted, and safety changes, along with items like adjustable shocks, radios, etc have added weight. Now foregoing some of these to make weight is a fair trade off for not raising the weight more than 1040.

ChrisZ

1/28/2012 PS here is a link to my spreadsheet:

http://snetpwp.att.net/c/z/czarzycki...preadsheet.pdf

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I would be happy with 1050 even though I am more like 1070. Close enough.

That way I would only be giving up 20lbs instead of 45lbs......

I guess I could take the 10lbs of data system components off........ or not

[Matt King]

If there is a weight increase, I would vote for 1040 or 1045. One thing that should be considered is how close you plan to cut your actual post-race weight to the minimum. You need to leave some margin for error, probably in the range of 3-5 pounds depending on how much of a risk-taker you are.

[craigs]

1025 until there is a proven positive correlation between weight and the number of drivers/entrants.

Even though things like Hans devices have added weight we have seen advances in lightweight suits and Kevlar/CF body parts that could offset the increases.

For me to vote for a weight increase I would need to see a strong possibility that driver/entrant numbers are correlated to minimum weight.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Well, I left the class mainly because of the weight. Do you need more evidence??

[FVRacer21]

Well, I left the class mainly because of the weight. Do you need more evidence??

Uh - go back and add your post - just the facts - no personal comments.

Chris Z

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Just making the correlation that was asked above. If the moderators feel that my answer is inappropriate then they can remove it.

[craigs]

Uh - go back and add your post - just the facts - no personal comments.

Chris Z

I understand how there could have been confusion. My post could have been better written. What I meant is that I would want to see if an increase in weight would result in an higher number of drivers/entrants in the future. Only looking forward because what has happened has happened - if we add weight do we get more drivers/entrants.

Would the person who does three races a year do five if we raised the weight? For the guy with the car in the barn would he get it out if we raised the weight (all other things staying equal).

Craig

[FVRacer21]

I understand how there could have been confusion. My post could have been better written. What I meant is that I would want to see if an increase in weight would result in an higher number of drivers/entrants in the future. Only looking forward because what has happened has happened - if we add weight do we get more drivers/entrants.

Would the person who does three races a year do five if we raised the weight? For the guy with the car in the barn would he get it out if we raised the weight (all other things staying equal).

Craig

BTW - I am not a moderator - Craig, no problem with your post. I just don't want this to go off topic like some other threads - I want people to make logical arguments as to why the limit should be raised or not raised. Scott's first post was good and if he said that not getting down to weigh was an reason for him leaving FV - no problem - his last sentence on the separate reply could be interpreted as a personal poke - remember - everyone is entitled to an opinion, the amount of people who write the Comp Board and the logical arguments they make, will determine if something passes.

Scott did bring up a interesting point - with so many people running data collection these days - does anyone have a weight to lap time comparison they can share? For example does 20 lbs on a 2 mile track = x increase in lap time?

ChrisZ

[Bill Bonow]

I want people to make logical arguments ......

Chris, this an internet forum. Logical arguments are rare. Attemps to control them (logical or not) are futile.

.....his last sentence on the separate reply could be interpreted as a personal poke

Sarcastic, yes. A personal attack (what mods look for), would be a stretch.

This is a forum, ask for opinions (as nothing is official here) and take what you get with a grain (or two) of salt.

[problemchild]

1025 until there is a proven positive correlation between weight and the number of drivers/entrants.

Even though things like Hans devices have added weight we have seen advances in lightweight suits and Kevlar/CF body parts that could offset the increases.

For me to vote for a weight increase I would need to see a strong possibility that driver/entrant numbers are correlated to minimum weight.

That is a far too simplistic correlation to make or prove.

Reducing costs and increasing accessability, makes people more competitive with more money in their pocket, the entire experience more enjoyable and rewarding, and leads to increased participation.

Chris's question, as asked, has no relativity, and cannot be answered with relativity. What significance does one person in one car, whether Chris or somebody else, have to what is best for a community? Are we all going to vote on which weight rule (to the closest 5 lb increment) will suit our own personal specific situation, to benefit ourselfs, but no one heavier. What happens when someone changes cars or gains 10 lbs. Do we revote?

Are we going to factor in those who leave the class. I can think of 5 of the top of my head .... two now in FM, one now in SM, one in FF, and one running Late Models .... all left FV because of their size.

This is not an personal attack. The proposed process is grotesquely flawed.

[Amon]

I'd say 1050 lbs. with the required Hans and now that many drivers are using camera's and other electronics in their cars etc...

Mark

[Hardingfv32]

ChrisZ

You race is the most FV populous area in the country. The largest voting block. Work this locally and personally. This forum has no relevance when it comes to getting something changed. Can you convince Carr and Pastore? Two simple calls will tell you if your idea has traction. Those two alone have the connections to get it done.

Same goes for spec tires. Get it done in the NE and it is a done deal nationally.

Your effort must extend way beyond this forum.

Brian

[Parker]

I think what Chris is doing is valuable and appreciate his initiative for a focused pole to gather data.

I would encourage people to list a desired weight (based solely on what they think would be best for them) and if they want to, a little blurb as to why they would propose this weight.

If you don't agree with the requested response format of this thread, please do NOT post here and if you are so inclined, start another thread. Reducing the back and forth will make the data much more clear and help us identify any trends that develop.

My response:
I'm sticking with 1025 lbs.
6'2", 190 lbs, no radios, no data acq., small gas tank, no dash, 1030-1035 on the scales last season. I simply don't have any reason to change the existing weight rule.

Anthony Parker

P.S. If I see a significant trend in the thread that suggests (in any region) people are likely to increase their racing or start racing because of an increase in class weight, then I would be willing to support a rule change and invest the time and money to bring my cars into compliance.

[FVRacer21]

Just to review, I started this becuase there seemed to be enough support to raise the weight, just there was no agreement on the number.

It takes about a year to get a rules change through the SCCA.

First you have to get some support - one letter will not cut it (unless you are trying to get an extra 5 cc fro a 1957 Spruget, which no one ever heard of..) To get on their radar I figure you need 20 - 30 members supporting an idea. Then if it gets picked up it will be opened for public comment and if it doesn't get killed in the arena of public opinion it moves on to the BOD. So if there is enough support for raising the minimum weight, let's just do it instead of talking about it.

My opinion is that there is no support for a spec tire on a National level - regions can do what they want, but the SCCA will not promote a spec tire unless a manufacturer offers to support the class, physically and financially. (Enterprise cars are another matter..)

Any attempt tp change engines or to disc brakes is just as far out. A steering rack might be easier and a wheelbase change is not out of the realm of possibility (but would need more like 100 letters for such a major change. Minimum weight is just a number on a page. With 50+ classes and hundreds of cars, the Comp Board changes them every day and sometime twice on Tuesday.

At the end of this thread (lets give it 2 - 3 weeks) we should have a proposed number. Right now I would guess either 1040 or 1050. The Comp Board may do their own research and propose 1037.5

So make your argument for a number (and it can be 1025) and we can move on it.

Thanks

ChrisZ

[problemchild]

Raising the weight limit is a great idea.

Unfortunately, this thread has the tone of "what is best for me" rather than " how I can I help others be more competitive". Very few people whose cars are significantly overweight will be comfortable going on a public forum and campaigning for a weight that would be best for them. If they bother to respond, it will hoping for a 25 lb increase, rather than what would be to their best competitive interests. Scott's response was typical, understandable, and noble. The results of this thread will be totally different than results gathered in a non-public format.

[njg005]

I own a Caldwell D13, height 6' 0", weigh 170, no on-board telemetry, and add 12 lbs. of ballast to weight 1030-1040 (depending on the scales) at half fuel load. My vote- leave the min. weight at 1025.

Nick

[craigs]

While I was refreshing Apex forums today to see when it would come back up I was thinking about what additional weight would do to tire wear. Would additional weight cause tires to heat cycle out faster? Would the additional weight cause increased brake wear? fuel consumption? No idea, but possibly things to consider.

Also good to see the New England region is active here and on the track. If anyone in the region is sitting on the sidelines thinking about getting out there next year and tires are a sticking point I have a set of 14 cycle R55s coming off next week that are yours if you dismount them.

See you guys at the track.

Craig

[Chris Elwell]

1050 lbs. I personally would like it to stay at 1025 because I can meet that fairly easily (I'm 22, not hard for me to stay at 180-ish lbs), but I think 1050 would be better overall for FV on the Regional level. Even if it only brings a couple guys back on track that's a start.

Chris

PS: I haven't seen it mentioned on Apexspeed, but there is a survey being sent out about spec tires in FV.

"The SCCA FV Ad-Hoc Committee is circulating (via the FV Registry) a survey about spec tires for formula vees. If you are on the Registry, you should have received an email about the survey this week (January 17, 2011) from Stephen Saslow (stephensaslow at gmail.com). If you have not (or are not on the Registry) contact him to get a unique link and have your opinion heard on the issue, on a national level."

[Matt King]

Back in 2010 we had the same debate that resulted in letters to the CRB and no action was taken: "Rules are adequate as written." What has changed since then to produce a different result?

Once the results of the tire survey are compiled, maybe the FV committee will conduct another one on the weight issue and forward the results to the CRB with a recommendation.

[Mark Filip]

While I was refreshing Apex forums today to see when it would come back up I was thinking about what additional weight would do to tire wear. Would additional weight cause tires to heat cycle out faster? Would the additional weight cause increased brake wear? fuel consumption? No idea, but possibly things to consider.

Also good to see the New England region is active here and on the track. If anyone in the region is sitting on the sidelines thinking about getting out there next year and tires are a sticking point I have a set of 14 cycle R55s coming off next week that are yours if you dismount them.

See you guys at the track.

Craig

How do you think I feel Craig I'm just under 1120 in my car all those question go through my mind everyday. I would not expect a raise in the weight just for me or for a few other heavy racers.

I will dismount your tires if someone needs them and can not do it.

[FVRacer21]

How do you think I feel Craig I'm just under 1120 in my car all those question go through my mind everyday. I would not expect a raise in the weight just for me or for a few other heavy racers.......

Mark - if that weight is correct we need to look at your car to see if there is any hidden weight in the chassis that can come off. Also, no one should have recommend 45 Hoosiers to you - that is the problem with asking "what are the fast guys running?" as that has burned me before. They have to ask you what you want out of a set of tires.

To answer Greg's concerns, the purpose of this thread is to collect real life information about car weights and then we could run a poll once people have the information. A National driver with a car at 1025 might not realize that 20 Regional drivers are considering leaving Vee or doing less races because they feel they can't compete on a level playing ground.

An aside to think about - if you buy a more expensive Hans device in order to save weight, do you trade off that extra expense by running less races? I know in the past I have made similar decisions.

After everyone has made their arguments, then we have a poll - the jury does not vote before or during the case - an we cannot just go to the highest number but the number that makes the most sense since the 20 years from the last change.

ChrisZ

[Amon]

Chris,

I'm not sure how much Mark weighs, but I've owned two D-13's and they
always seem to run a little heavy. I agree with your post and think you've
really hit the nail on the head recently. ...Kudo's!


Mark

92' Protofrom P-2/05'

[FVRacer21]

Back in 2010 we had the same debate that resulted in letters to the CRB and no action was taken: "Rules are adequate as written." What has changed since then to produce a different result?

Once the results of the tire survey are compiled, maybe the FV committee will conduct another one on the weight issue and forward the results to the CRB with a recommendation.

See my last post about polling after people have had the chance to make an argument. Greg's concern is if we took the thread as a poll, then the result would be higher. I am hoping that taking the poll after will result in a more accurate number.

The SCCA process is a political process - unlike NASCAR or F1, we are a democratic process.

check out these:

http://www.scca.com/clubracing/content.cfm?cid=44720

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...ocesschart.pdf

What can change is if we make a stronger argument with more support; realizing if more people are against the change that for it (or even if it is 50/50 - the board tends to vote status quo). The difference can be arguing for 1035 vs 1040.

ChrisZ

[Mark Filip]

Mark - if that weight is correct we need to look at your car to see if there is any hidden weight in the chassis that can come off. Also, no one should have recommend 45 Hoosiers to you - that is the problem with asking "what are the fast guys running?" as that has burned me before. They have to ask you what you want out of a set of tires.

To answer Greg's concerns, the purpose of this thread is to collect real life information about car weights and then we could run a poll once people have the information. A National driver with a car at 1025 might not realize that 20 Regional drivers are considering leaving Vee or doing less races because they feel they can't compete on a level playing ground.

An aside to think about - if you buy a more expensive Hans device in order to save weight, do you trade off that extra expense by running less races? I know in the past I have made similar decisions.

After everyone has made their arguments, then we have a poll - the jury does not vote before or during the case - an we cannot just go to the highest number but the number that makes the most sense since the 20 years from the last change.

ChrisZ

It's me not the car. The car does have some extra side bars but at 260 and gear any FV is hard to make weight.

[FVRacer21]

It's me not the car. The car does have some extra side bars but at 260 and gear any FV is hard to make weight.

Comparing your figures to Nicks, it does not look too far off. As you acknowledged, no change in what I am proposing will make you able to get to the minimum. Others may chime in here, but you may want to consider a conversion. I think a differnt chassis can get you closer to the minimum weight. Off the top of my head I am thinking Womer or BRD. If you were in the Midwest, I might propose something different.

Since this thread has evolved a little - for those who want to make an argument for keeping the weight at 1025, can you point to any ways people can save weight? That might influence people in their opinion.

ChrisZ

[problemchild]

Why are the hundred or so FV racers in SCCA whose cars are more than 50 lbs overweight, not playing into this thread.

Two reasons. This thread is an obvious political activity to make sure that any weight increase is merely token and will have minimal effect of helping make the class more accessable and competitive for commonly sized men in common FVs.

Secondly .... most people have no idea how heavy their car/driver packagess are. Once you're more than 15 lbs over, why bother checking. Its frustrating, depressing, and a waste of time to gather all your crap together, take your car to tech, and deal with all the potential hassles of spending more time with tech people. Why do only 2 or 3 people per FV event bother weighing their cars. Think about it! Because so few are managing ballast, that they have absolutely no concerns about being underweight. Those 2 or 3 are usually the first to cry out that they don't want to increase the minimum. If so, only enough to help them. Whether, consciously thinking in those terms, they are protecting their competitiveness.

Much like the spec tire issue, the 20-30% who like it as-is, are going to have to sacrifice their advantage, to help the class as a whole.

In my guestimation, knowing as many racers and race cars as I do, I would suggest that the average weight of FV race cars/drivers in SCCA is 1070-1075 lbs. I think that a proper investigation would confirm my numbers. I also think that no political process will ever support my numbers, or the real numbers if they are different.

If you want to have a poll, conduct an anonymous poll, asking how many racer's cars weigh between 1025-1040, 1041-1075, 1076 and over. I expect that more than 60% would fall into the middle choice and the rest would be split between the other two choices. No comments allowed. No opinions. Strictly anonymous results of current racers. Certainly not as accurate as an independant investigation, but probably as accurate as possible .... since only those in the lightest cars would actually know their real weights and 80% of us would be guesstimating.

I am confident that less than half the racers would need ballast with a 1050 minimum, and that there would still only be a few checking weight at most regional events.

Let us actually try to help with "the purpose of this thread is to collect real life information about car weights".

[Amon]

Greg,

I rolled across the scales at 1053 in my 92' Protoform P-2, which I have
to admit is built like a tank, and has better side intrusion protection than
my 95' Citation due to more bars. In order to get the weight down I'm:

1.) Adding a Gear Reduction Starter to the car (-4 lbs. est.)
2.) Going with a lighter battery (-3 lbs. est.)
3.) Reducing amount of gas in fuel cell by a gallon (-6 lbs.)
4.) Losing weight (-5 lbs.)

Hopefully this will reduce my weight around 18 lbs. and get me down to 1035...

Mark


P.S.: The cost of # 1 & # 2 can add up to $350+ dollars, which is alot more
than adding weight which can be sourced at a Kart shop.

[problemchild]

Greg,

I rolled across the scales at 1053 in my 92' Protoform P-2, which I have
to admit is built like a tank, and has better side intrusion protection than
my 95' Citation due to more bars. In order to get the weight down I'm:

1.) Adding a Gear Reduction Starter to the car (-4 lbs. est.)
2.) Going with a lighter battery (-3 lbs. est.)
3.) Reducing amount of gas in fuel cell by a gallon (-6 lbs.)
4.) Losing weight (-5 lbs.)

Hopefully this will reduce my weight around 18 lbs. and get me down to 1035...

Mark


P.S.: The cost of # 1 & # 2 can add up to $350+ dollars, which is alot more
than adding weight which can be sourced at a Kart shop.

Well, hopefully, they can raise the min weight to 1050. You can still lose the 5 lbs and spend your savings on another entry fee.

Protoforms are certainly not heavy cars. Neither are D13s.

Very few FV racers are as buff as Mark. I don't think very many would be comfotable discussing specifics here, nore should they. It only makes sense, that better physical specimens will be more comfortable with public weight discussions. This is only partially about cars. This is mostly about people.

[Mark Filip]

Very few FV racers are as buff as Mark I don't think very many would be comfotable discussing specifics here, nore should they.

Most people my size can not fit in a Vee at all which is why I would not expect rule changes to make it better for me or a couple other people. I choose to race a Vee because of the people and the great fields we have in NER. I knew I would never make weight without some serious life changing events and I'm ok with that. If we had to vote on a number I would vote to keep it the same as I would not want to known as the "fat guy that made us add 25lbs to our cars".

Comparing your figures to Nicks, it does not look too far off. As you acknowledged, no change in what I am proposing will make you able to get to the minimum. Others may chime in here, but you may want to consider a conversion. I think a differnt chassis can get you closer to the minimum weight. Off the top of my head I am thinking Womer or BRD. If you were in the Midwest, I might propose something different.

I have some options in the future that will work a little better but like I said its not the cars.

[Amon]

Greg,

I appreciate the kind words, but think you have me confused with Rick Shields!!



Mark


P.S.: My wife is going to be searching the house looking for that "buff" guy! It
will be like searching for the "Holy Grail" ...........

[Rolling Stone]

The trouble with chatrooms etc,etc, is like Talk-Shows...a survey was done a few years ago on a talk show I frequented and apparently only about 2% of people who regularly listen to a talk-show actually call in and participate.My feeling is its the same with chatrooms,only a few people participate,a lot of folks I know dont use chatrooms/sites at all,its just not thier thing.

[problemchild]

Mark,
You are buff by FV standards!

And thats OK. This is not F1.

No one is suggesting that 250+ lb drivers should be able to reach minimum, but let's get it so that they can lose 30 lbs and be close in a common car or really close in a big money light-weight car.

[Mark Filip]

Ok sorry I'm confused there is to many Marks

[veefan]

With my winter aka too many donuts weight of 245lbs, I was either over or under the minimum weight based on the car. Autodynamics I was under, Lynx I was over, Womer I was right on with low gas and a few less donuts, D-13 over and a Caracal D WAY OVER. Car choice was my decision, I do not think other highly competitive racers should be penalized because of the car I purchased or my OVER weight (or my excessive donut consumption).

Just my opinion, I think this should be a Runoff or National drivers poll and decision.

[problemchild]

Ok sorry I'm confused there is to many Marks

I was talking to the buff one! (Amon)

But I'm sure that you are just as important to the FV community as someone who rides their bike 20 miles a day. Maybe more, as they already have a hobby!

[problemchild]

Just my opinion, I think this should be a Runoff or National drivers poll and decision.

If anything, it should be the reverse. They are more adaptive by nature. I would prefer that everyone had an equal voice. Worrying about the elite 10% is how the class got where its at. Being an oversized regional driver should not make you a 4th-rate citizen. With some consideration, you could become 2nd-rate citizens.

[jpetillo]

Amon, good post. I have the opposite problem. The last quote I got to add weight was over $400 by welding it in. And that was for only part of the ballast I needed, and only part of the expense.

If it's any consolation, going for the lighter starter and lighter battery increases the value of your car, and it will be more sellable than one with weight welded in. John

[Dennis Richarson]

I'm 5'10", 170 lbs (need to drop 5+ lbs), Adams Aero with added side protection, 20 lbs of lead + 1 gallon of gas at the race end gives me 1030 lbs crossing the scales. My vote is to leave the minimum weight at 1025.

Dennis

[veefan]

I vote to keep it the same at 1025.


Changing a rule that's makes racers spend possibly $400 + to add even more weight is silly.