What Does FV need for the future?"

[2BWise]

I think the below quotes are all great points, and none of the classes ever really address them in these types of discussions.

4. One thing I have not seen much mention of? Where is the new or next racer coming from? Getting car counts also involves getting more people interested. In Canada we promote our series to the Karters who want to move up as well as to those in the mid-30+ who have a bit of dispossable income.

I realize that many of the current FV folks have a large investment in spares and knowledge they don't want to give up, but that doesn't help build the class or attract new blood.

How far into the future are we talking about? Is the goal to get garage queens and current owners out, or bring new blood in? If people already made the plunge, and then parked their car... chances are "life" happened, and no rule change is going to get that car our of the garage. New blood or converts from another class are another great source, but the competition for that blood gets stronger every summer.

I would love to see the stats showing the average age of a FV racer compared to some of the other successful classes within the SCCA. My guess, is that the average age in FV trends upward as the average participation trends downward. I don't know if that data is available anywhere, but it might give some insight into part of the problem. I wonder if the prod car guys and the GT guys are facing the same trends? I have nothing against age and treachery, but without newbie drivers and newbie cars, any class is going to have trouble.

It's too bad we have no means to do "good" market research. I would love to know what the majority of people between 20 and 50 want out of their racing program. And, what that same group thinks of FV.

I'll throw my opinion into the hat. The above points, I think, are really at the root of this discussion. Where are new entries going to come and what pool of drivers do you want to be pulling from. From my veiwpoint and that of quite a few of my friends (20-something crowd), none want to get involved in Vee. These are all people that are either currently racing or looking to get started. In all honesty FST and F600 would attract all of them, but neither FV or F500 will.

I spent two seasons in Vee and after my very first session in a FST I vowed to myself I'd never run the Vee again. The FST was ultimately what would have fit me best. In hindsight I would have foregone FV all together and I would be likely to make the same recommendation to any of my friends who want to get started in formula cars.

Sorry if my opinion offends anyone. My goal is not to run around bashing anyone class or another, but to share my experiences in situations where it might help do some good. Maybe a letter off to the CRB might be of better use.

[rydawg011291]

Glad you jumped in Jason.

In this vein there was lots of discussion on the Howden FV board about promotion of the class. Videos, flyers distributed to Karters, shows, etc. I don't think much of anything happened ? We get lots of racers of all kinds here in the store (drag, oval, tractor pullers, mud slingers, lots of VW duners, etc.) . Other than the SCCA members no one ever heard of FV. While few of these guys are likely candidates for FV, some spend more than a good FV costs MONTHLY. So the $ are there, but no one ever heard of us.

I know this may not be in the cards (budget), but I checked with Speed Channel several years ago, and a 30 sec spot was pretty cheap. Do you know how many inquirees we would get with a SINGLE 30 second video on Speed? A good video or Brochure is definiately needed. Or promotion of ANY kind. While FST may be more attractive to the newer guys and we HAVE done some promotion, it has had some growth, but still suffers from the same issue.

BTW, I just talked to Speed again and they said a 30 second spot during a Formula One race would be $3000 to $5000. They are calling me back with more details..,. That could be less than the travel budget for 3 races. And much more could be done via other venues for less. Again, is anyone really serious or do we just continue to just make funny forum noises.

Jim you may not remember me but I am Bill Wise's brother. I am a Visual Communication Technology major at Bowling Green State University. I would be more than interested in creating this 30 second spot for the FST championship. Also I would be more than will to help create fliers or whatever else needs to be done to help promote the championship.

[sracing]

Jim you may not remember me but I am Bill Wise's brother. I am a Visual Communication Technology major at Bowling Green State University. I would be more than interested in creating this 30 second spot for the FST championship. Also I would be more than will to help create fliers or whatever else needs to be done to help promote the championship.

I remember you. Thanks. Give me a call, or drop me a private post with your phone number and email. We will chat. Since this effort is FST only apparently we should not continue on in this thread and either do it off line in the FST forum. Thanks. I start a thread there.

[Mark Filip]

I'll throw my opinion into the hat. The above points, I think, are really at the root of this discussion. Where are new entries going to come and what pool of drivers do you want to be pulling from. From my veiwpoint and that of quite a few of my friends (20-something crowd), none want to get involved in Vee. These are all people that are either currently racing or looking to get started. In all honesty FST and F600 would attract all of them, but neither FV or F500 will.

I spent two seasons in Vee and after my very first session in a FST I vowed to myself I'd never run the Vee again. The FST was ultimately what would have fit me best. In hindsight I would have foregone FV all together and I would be likely to make the same recommendation to any of my friends who want to get started in formula cars.

Sorry if my opinion offends anyone. My goal is not to run around bashing anyone class or another, but to share my experiences in situations where it might help do some good. Maybe a letter off to the CRB might be of better use.

So as we can see you and many others keep saying how great FST is and I have yet to see anyone say FST is stupid. I'm sure there are many FV drivers that are curious about FST.

I keep trying to point this out and I can't be the only one that feels this way.

What would you do if the 3 or 4 closest tracks to you ran on average 15 - 20 FVs and 0 FST?

In the region that FST was strated the class does well because there is cars to race with period. All you FST guys that want to see FST go crazy then you need to find a way to get cars out there rather than trying to convert someone you has a FV and has cars to run with it wont happen unless there are FSTs to race.

This thread is "what does FV need" not how great another class is. FST my be the future who knows but I will tell you it wont have me in it unless I have cars near my home region to race against. IF FV went away and I had to race something else I would if I could afford the class.



Mark

[sracing]

All you FST guys that want to see FST go crazy then you need to find a way to get cars out there rather than trying to convert someone you has a FV and has cars to run with it wont happen unless there are FSTs to race.

Maybe you have nmissed something? We aren't trying to convert FV. We started our own class. (Just like SM, F600, or anyone else.) You can join or not. If a Vee driver inquires about FST, yes we tell him about the pros AND the cons (not National, limited Geography etc.) As a matter of fact, when a customer calls me about getting started I ALWAYS explain those points and advise AGAINST FST if he is in an area with no FST's and or wants to be in the run-offs. Our contributions to this thread have only been about what changes we did make and what seems to work well. We have 10 years of experience in wheel to wheel with most all of the things that have been brought up and discussed by FV guys. Pick and choose from those changes or do nothing. I don't care. I will continue to support both classes in either case.

You are absolutely right. If there were no FST's in my area and lots of Vees, I would race FV. Have at it. You are preaching to the choir..

[protoform]

In the NED we do well with formula vee grids. My concern is if a formula s shows up and 1 fst and 1 club ford and 1 formula 500 they are all gonna be put in with the vee's unless the field is completely full. We do have 1 formula 500 in our field. The guy is getting faster and is most of the time out of the way. At one race last year Harry white hit him going on to the front straight at nh harry just carried more corner speed and I just missed him, going into the bowl, had to stand on the binders and now Harry got away so my battle with harry was done. This is club racing so we let it go. is just part of the club racing scene. It is always gonna be there. It happens in pro racing also, but at least there all the cars are the same.

[Daryl DeArman]

Bringing the proverbial turd to the punchbowl....

I only spent a couple years racing a FV so my perspective may be a bit narrow. What I see is too much resistance to change by those who have collected a ton of parts and knowledge. Understandably, they wish to protect that investment. What it will end up doing is causing the fruit to slowly die on the vine.

I firmly believe that EVERY solution to "FIX" FV has already been addressed/answered with the FST. The issue with FST is who's going to buy one in a region/division where you don't have anybody to race against? Equalize them and merge the classes and let the class EVOLVE.

Otherwise we could eventually just change FV to F450---would lower the weight at least 250# and give us sequential 5 speed gearboxes and fuel injection. No more parts availability issues, no more transmission collections. About 8-10 less HP but at 200# less it'd be about a wash. The packaging (no wheelbase concerns, sexier bodywork) would be much easier and it might just attract some newbies.

[sracing]

One of the good things about FST and FV grouping is that they typically play well together. The FST is about the same speed as a FV in the corners and slightly faster on the straights. Not much of a problem for either driver.

[hojof1]

Here is what I think makes sense.

1- Raise Min Weight to 1050
2- Add a spec tire
3- (2 year timeframe)Allow a restricted version of the 1600 (restrictor plate, mandated gearbox and increased weight)
4- 5 year plan to phase in Ball Joint beam, disk brake conversion

Jim,

Still missing the point. I am talking about two separate classes running together as a group on the race track at the same time to provide our own run group. Not necessary talking about one club, or one association, etc, etc.

___

Scott



These 2 posts make the most sense when it comes to - potentially:

- stregthening the VEE world (FV1200 & FST1600)
- cost savings (one way or another)
- better race group potential (makes for better quality of racing)

I see this as being Vee on the left and FST on the right...find the middle
it may not be perfect but could be a whole lot better than current for both sides.

after re-reading, scratch points 3 &4 and you pretty much have canadian F1200. which has young drivers, joe racer, and new blood flowing in and out with stable grid. for the small sample size it hits a lot of the tickie boxes many of you are looking for.

add points 3&4 and the class might survive for another 30 years with good numbers.

history easily shows that standing still and being complacent the world will pass you by. be progressive yet rational with change and your customers will stay.

[Mark Filip]

One of the good things about FST and FV grouping is that they typically play well together. The FST is about the same speed as a FV in the corners and slightly faster on the straights. Not much of a problem for either driver.

If there were at least 3 or 4 FST I think more people would try it out and at that point how knows what would happen.

Mark

[Clyde]

I THINK that the youth of today are not interested in; tinkering with a racecar (F/V - F/FST - F/F) thay are to use to pushing buttons not adjusting, points, valves, brake bias, or any of the items we racers consider part of racing and many of us think it is fun, I certainly do. Todays Youth play with video games and "talk" to their street cars.
Heck, a majority of the racecars are older then their drivers. I hope the best bang for the buck classes live but where can we find new drivers for these classes?

[2BWise]

I only spent a couple years racing a FV so my perspective may be a bit narrow. What I see is too much resistance to change by those who have collected a ton of parts and knowledge. Understandably, they wish to protect that investment. What it will end up doing is causing the fruit to slowly die on the vine.

I firmly believe that EVERY solution to "FIX" FV has already been addressed/answered with the FST. The issue with FST is who's going to buy one in a region/division where you don't have anybody to race against? Equalize them and merge the classes and let the class EVOLVE.

Great point Daryl. It abounds in every class, but since FV more or less sits by itself (FF, FC, FB all overlap with manufacturers and parts availability) it tends to standout a bit more. Especially with stockpiling parts and spares. Coming in new to the class there was a lot to learn separately from the knowledge gained in other parts of the automotive arena.

I THINK that the youth of today are not interested in; tinkering with a racecar (F/V - F/FST - F/F) thay are to use to pushing buttons not adjusting, points, valves, brake bias, or any of the items we racers consider part of racing and many of us think it is fun, I certainly do. Todays Youth play with video games and "talk" to their street cars.
Heck, a majority of the racecars are older then their drivers. I hope the best bang for the buck classes live but where can we find new drivers for these classes?

I think you underestimate the youth here. Its not that they don't mind tinkering its just that they don't want to tinker with adjusting brake drums, points, valves, and all the other antiquated hardware used. I had never worked on a carb before my Vee, never adjusted brake drums, never adjusted valves. It seemed to be that I was spending more time trying to keep the car running at its peak rather than trying to make the thing faster. To attract new blood the class needs to evolve. My early point was only that FST is an improvement by the fact that it solved a lot of the issues that I had had with FV. Had FV evolved to something along the lines of FST then maybe I would have stuck around.

[Mark Filip]

I THINK that the youth of today are not interested in; tinkering with a racecar (F/V - F/FST - F/F) thay are to use to pushing buttons not adjusting, points, valves, brake bias, or any of the items we racers consider part of racing and many of us think it is fun, I certainly do. Todays Youth play with video games and "talk" to their street cars.
Heck, a majority of the racecars are older then their drivers. I hope the best bang for the buck classes live but where can we find new drivers for these classes?

That's the problem with the youth today most can not even check the air in there tires!

[FVEE56]

Where can I get the pink socks?

[Mark Filip]

Where can I get the pink socks?

Will pink socks make me faster? ;-)

[Socko]

I THINK that the youth of today are not interested in; tinkering with a racecar (F/V - F/FST - F/F) thay are to use to pushing buttons not adjusting, points, valves, brake bias, or any of the items we racers consider part of racing and many of us think it is fun, I certainly do. Todays Youth play with video games and "talk" to their street cars.
Heck, a majority of the racecars are older then their drivers. I hope the best bang for the buck classes live but where can we find new drivers for these classes?

Just read through this whole thread and I can tell you this is the only post that directly addresses the issue I see with FV. Let me give you some info on my position and you can decide for yourself. I am NOT in any racing though quite dedicated to making FV happen for me by the 2013 season. So I have no exposure to tweaking the class. My opinion though is that you will never be able to race cars living near the poverty level. Cheaper isn't the key to adding members without stealing them from other classes, its exposure to the youth.(people in their 20's and 30's) I realize this is an odd first post but I have signifigant knowledge of marketing to young people, so a relivant opinion in some way, i think.

As I see it FV is a hidden gem. I am 32 and have been into watching road racing since my teens. In my early 20's I did some autocross and know some people who run nationals so have exposure, though not serious, with scca. I had no idea that there was a "simple to run", and by this i mean: no areo setup, no gear changes every race, and sub $1000 per event maintence costs formula class in exsistance. As i only know about what I saw on tv and FF. I only learned about FV in october as a pure fluke when I met to caravan to a track day, for street cars, cause one of the kids going had just bought an fv for a steal so it was neat to talk about relative to the days events. This "kid"(he is 23) works in a carbon fiber shop building race car chassis and for a pit crew for a renault(i think) club car. So his exposure level is VERY high compaired to any normal person that is 23 or 32 apparently.

So if it took me 15 years and over 2 years of regular track attendance to even find out about the exsistance of the sport what does that tell you? Exposure to the current youth is a serious issue with this sport. I comprehend that you are never going to have an average age of 30 in something that costs 5-15k a year. But making young people aware of the sport is imo a bigger issue than making it cheaper. As has been stated in this thread, I dont need to be at the front of the pack to have a fun race. I imagine from track days, anytime you are running with someone its a good time, even if thats not at the front of the pack.

I work at an engineering college so I have unique access to a bunch of smart mechanical 18-22 year old young men. Though as someone stated earlier, these young kids seem much less interested in cars than even my generation was. There are plenty of people into their street cars. They will be graduating into good paying jobs and have no idea that anything of this nature exists. Issue is how do you let them know. I dont have an answer to that but I can tell you were to start:

There NEEDS to be a good, up to date web page setup. These kids detect web pages from the 90's REALLY easy. To them that is ancient and a turn off. Hell it is to me too. It makes all info suspect. The other thing you older folks may or may not know is these kids of this "cell phone" era have no interpoersonal comunication skills whatsoever and expect instant gratification. It makes them really annoying as they tend to ask 1082394 questions on forums instead of looking for answers, they also cannot speak to people well in person to some shocking degree. But if you want new racers and not to steal people from other classes that cannot, or dont care to, afford it anymore, imo it comes from exposing younger folks to it. Only way I see to really learn about FV is: talk to people at races, crew for them, learn from them and ask questions. To me that works, it is inconvienient as I have spent the last 3+ months ramping up my knowledge. I would perfer to be ready to roll for the 2012 season but I can wait. I honestly believe that I have consumed most of what is available on the internet and still have some signifigant questions that should be laid out on a web page someplace. It is 2012 and the fact that the info isnt readily available is silly to me, but a huge turn off to people in their early to mid 20's.

FV is entry level, cost wise and setup difficulty wise, but as I have read over and over still has a very high skill level. Which makes it an excelent way to get into racing, and very appealing to a person like me. But there is no place i have read a comprehensive list of actual costs to race, even though it is a cost driven class. I realize it is very relative to the level of competition but I know who tracks cars, and I assume its the same folks that run in fv to some large extent. Its 50ish year old men that make tons(from my perspective) of money. Some of those people have to be cfo's, investment bankers or even just folks in management , the types prone to and have spreadsheeds of cost over years of running. Access to information like that to lay out a budget would be VERY useful to a person like myself that has more or less settled on dedicated formula car, but would like to really know what costs are going to be over time to be sure I can at least afford enough sessions a year to maintain my license. Ideas on what you should expect to pay to play at any specific level: shoestring, regionally competitive, nationally competitive would be interesting to see to have goals for budgeting in the long term. Cost for licensing is also some signifigant ammount of front end costs, along with racing suit expense.

I think people underestimate the need over the next 5-10 years(sooner the better) of a legitimate web presence if you want to appeal to, and inform, more people . If the average age keeps getting older it just isn't going to work in the long run. At some point serious effort needs to be made to expose younger people to competitive racing, specifically formula. As i never knew how many classes there were till I found these forums. Spec miata has a bunch of young folks running and isnt a whole lot cheaper to run than fv(if any), and imo more difficult as far as setup goes, relative to coil overs. Also miatas are slow as hell so I couldnt stand it, otherwise I would likely be considering that as well.

To me as a person that is just getting into the whole FV scene, the biggest hurdle to jumping on the FV train is sorting out if i can afford it. As I stated above, being that this is a cost driven class, it seems like a very silly problem to have. Swaping to a spec tire or disc brakes isn't going to make that an easier question to answer as someone on the outside with no exposure to real racing.

enough rambling, thats my $.02

Tony

[lawyerbob]

If there were at least 3 or 4 FST I think more people would try it out and at that point how knows what would happen.

Mark

Clearly that's the chicken and egg problem. Frankly, it's one reason I'm back in FV for 2012. Beyond that - too soon to tell.

I want to state again what Bill and Jim have been saying - I don't hear anyone from the "it" camp calling for merger or changing FV to "it".

this thread seems to have gone off in various directions (how much show racers weigh etc etc)

The question was - what does FV NEED for the future. I think the pole that was posted is a good start - maybe FV doesn't NEED anything. If the majority of the current owners/drivers are satisfied with FV as it is, then so be it. Lets stop having the discussion.

On the other hand, if the majority of owner/drivers feel that it's in the BEST INTEREST of the class overall to make change, then perhaps the Committee needs to make a serious effort to contact the active FV drivers (SCCA FV drivers - no offense to the F1200 crowd or FST, but neither should have a vote in that - their opinions and experiences should be shared for information, but at the end of the day, those who are still in SCCA Fv need to make the call) and call for an actual vote on what should change and how. Get a good sample with a detailed survey and then perhaps the issues can be narrowed down.

I think one thing is obvious - at least to me and several other posters - doing nothing is not going to bring new blood. There are just too many options out there that are as or more appealing. I'd also suggest that while we keep hearing "stable rules" as an important factor to attracting new blood, we also, just about every year have this discussion. If I'm on the outside looking in, FV looks anything but stable with a bright future - If I didn't already have the investment, I'd have to wonder whether it was wise to jump in when there is clearly a large number who perceive a need for change, and NO clear indication of what that change could be.

We keep hearing fear of "obsoleting" cars - really? I know a regional FV guy with a D-13 who cam pretty much spank the field (including me in an FST but I kinda suck yet) and a few club Fords. Would he be kilelr fast in a Vortech? maybe - maybe not. Maybe the National guys at the front are that fast because they are that fast and put the energy into prep and driving skill. I HATE to point to FST but look at Jason - 40 year old car that was the class of the field.

We've got five pages and we're still at the same point as the first page:

Weight increase - maybe
Wheelbase - maybe
Spec tires - maybe
FST - Satan's evil spawn
1600 motor - slight maybe
Disc brakes and BJ Beam - slight maybe

oh and did I mention - FST = Satan's evil spawn.

[veefan]

I have "3 youths" of today a 24, 22 and 17, all of them car/racing nuts they each missed watching maybe one live F1 race this year (aka that means getting up on Sundays typically with a bad hangover for the 2 older ones at 6 -7am to watch some of the races LIVE). The younger one was in the driveway last night 20 +/- degrees and snowing changing his alternator!

They have no intrested in racing Vee's I've offer it to all of them.

My oldest sons comment last night to me when I asked him..

"You want to attract the youth, make the cars look more like a modern race car, fatter tires, disk brakes, wings and more HP..."

[Bruce]

"I firmly believe that EVERY solution to "FIX" FV has already been addressed/answered with the FST....Equalize them and merge the classes and let the class EVOLVE".

That was almost the original intent, but the process was not attractive to most in the FV community. You have to have been involved in FV to realize talk of it's demise has been going on for over 30 years. There have been many changes over the last few years, most that have been readily received. It still is going strong. Not as strong as 50 years ago, come next year, but how many classes have lasted as long.

There are some ideas that are being experimented with, if they prove to be good, they will be introduced for others to critique. Since most changes will need a concensus, I want to get all my facts in order. Some suggestions that are brought up have valid reasons, but they don't override the shortcomings (opinion). Most people, me included will only look at the positives when making suggestions rarely do we look for the negatives unless they are pointed out to us. I do realize living in California gives me a slanted view, and an advantage on parts availability. I don't have a problem with used parts, or cleaning them. I have been in the automotive field long enough to check each part, whether new or used.

[Bruce]

I have "3 youths" of today a 24, 22 and 17, all of them car/racing nuts they each missed watching maybe one live F1 race this year (aka that means getting up on Sundays typically with a bad hangover for the 2 older ones at 6 -7am to watch some of the races LIVE). The younger one was in the driveway last night 20 +/- degrees and snowing changing his alternator!

They have no intrested in racing Vee's I've offer it to all of them.

My oldest sons comment last night to me when I asked him..

"You want to attract the youth, make the cars look more like a modern race car, fatter tires, disk brakes, wings and more HP..."

I am going to make an assumption that the offered was a free ride for your sons in your Vee. If so, All I can say is WOW!?!?

[Socko]

I have "3 youths" of today a 24, 22 and 17, all of them car/racing nuts they each missed watching maybe one live F1 race this year (aka that means getting up on Sundays typically with a bad hangover for the 2 older ones at 6 -7am to watch some of the races LIVE). The younger one was in the driveway last night 20 +/- degrees and snowing changing his alternator!

They have no intrested in racing Vee's I've offer it to all of them.

My oldest sons comment last night to me when I asked him..

"You want to attract the youth, make the cars look more like a modern race car, fatter tires, disk brakes, wings and more HP..."

Honestly at that age i wouldn't have been interested either. But after putting my baby(street car) on the track a few times and analyzing the actual cost. FV seems like more fun, simmilar or less cost, and less risk. The cars aren't overly awesome looking i agree, but after being on the track I MUST get back out there and I dont feel right subjecting my, bank owned, baby to it regularly. If i would have known FV exsisted 5 years ago, I would be racing in the class already. Even though in my early 20's I would have had zero intrest. To me its an issue of exposure vs expecting to get people in their early 20's to run in this class. If I would have know about it then hell I couldn't have been able to afford it. But I can tell you I likely would have bought a cheaper street car last year if I would have known then what I know now about the relative "cheapness" of real racing. As I bought my STI specifically to track it, as it replaced a wrx a new wrx would have been a fine car, but track duty pushed me into the sti. That 10k could have paid for a nice FV.

If I'm on the outside looking in, FV looks anything but stable with a bright future - If I didn't already have the investment, I'd have to wonder whether it was wise to jump in when there is clearly a large number who perceive a need for change, and NO clear indication of what that change could be.

We keep hearing fear of "obsoleting" cars - really?

Both of these are concerns of mine. Class stability has proven to be there in the long run, so I am hoping i dont get into this then need to make a 3-5k investment in parts change in the near future.

Obsolete cars is more an issue of passing scca safety regulations than competitiveness in my eyes. I am sure safety rules have changed over time but outside of a car having a currentish scca tech sticker i have no idea how to tell if I were to buy a car if I am going to have to stick thousands of dollars into it to get it to pass safety and get it on the track.

In either case if I budget for x and end up having to spend x+$3k relative to a bad purchase or change in the class thats a signifigant setback at my income level. It would effect how many events i could run that year. Besides the fact that it would make me mad and leave a bad taste in my mouth, which may sour the whole deal for me for some time.

[Terry Abbott]

I have "3 youths" of today a 24, 22 and 17, all of them car/racing nuts they each missed watching maybe one live F1 race this year (aka that means getting up on Sundays typically with a bad hangover for the 2 older ones at 6 -7am to watch some of the races LIVE). The younger one was in the driveway last night 20 +/- degrees and snowing changing his alternator!

They have no intrested in racing Vee's I've offer it to all of them.

My oldest sons comment last night to me when I asked him..

"You want to attract the youth, make the cars look more like a modern race car, fatter tires, disk brakes, wings and more HP..."


REALLY ?? put any of them through drivers school (you would only be out the cash of the school) I'm sure you could find the drivers equipment to use, maybe even your's

I'm betting they would change there mind once they got a taste of it !

did i mention that the low HP, drum brakes, no aero in a FV would be to much for them at the d/school and besides We have class's that fit there need just not there pockect book.

[jhenn4716]

It always seems to be the newby or those with an agenda that advocates for change. Seldom will you see those that have experience or knowledge, advocate change.

As the newbie I take a bit of an exception to that. Of course the guys with the experience don't want to change. They have spent endless hours sweating and bleeding over their cars to learn how to make themselves and the car as fast as can be. Adding in a change upsets the apple cart.

What are we trying to address here? Are we trying to address concerns of future parts supplies and the cost of racing or are we trying to get more people on track? I don't necessarily think that both are linked. Throughout racing the numbers are down, economy or not. In my region we're trying to come up with ways to bring in more members to the club, which I'm sure they are doing in other areas. That's what we need to do with FV in the future.

For all the changes, spec tires for example, how much will that really decrease your annual budget? Racing is expensive so I've learned in my last year of racing. The newbie doesn't really care about a spec tire because most of the time we're using someones old tires anyways.

For those who who make the comment that the overweight guys should just loose the weight, come on. Most of us that are racing do it for the fun of it. I'm a few pounds overweight, and I'll work to loose that, but not because I want to win the Runoffs this year. I realize to be competitive you need every advantage, and weight can be one of those. There are heavy cars and there are heavy people. Raising the weight, even a little bit, helps even the playing field.

Let's make a list of ideas for improving the class, vote on them, present them to the Ad Hoc committee and see what we can do. We can sit here and talk circles all day long and that doesn't put more cars on the track.

[sracing]

I don't have a problem with used parts, or cleaning them.

Would you give me a quote on 6 good backing plates and 2 front beams (needle bearing if possible) ?

[craigs]

Would you give me a quote on 6 good backing plates and 2 front beams (needle bearing if possible) ?

Come on Jim. Its crap like this that brings down the whole conversation. We all know you aren't pushing one class or the other and you want both to thrive and you make less on FST parts, but posts like this have an effect on my opinion of you and your motives.

[sracing]

He made the claim. And if he is serious, I am also. I will buy those parts if he has them at reasonable prices. I am not sure what "crap" was there? Also, how does this show my motives? I will gladly buy parts to support my Vee customers.

[lawyerbob]

My oldest sons comment last night to me when I asked him..

"You want to attract the youth, make the cars look more like a modern race car, fatter tires, disk brakes, wings and more HP..."

It's a 100% WAG but I would venture that if you asked a group of HS/College age guys you'd get a similar response - especially if it was THEIR money that was being spent.

Thanks for posting that - interesting to hear

[Amon]

I have "3 youths" of today a 24, 22 and 17, all of them car/racing nuts they each missed watching maybe one live F1 race this year (aka that means getting up on Sundays typically with a bad hangover for the 2 older ones at 6 -7am to watch some of the races LIVE). The younger one was in the driveway last night 20 +/- degrees and snowing changing his alternator!

They have no intrested in racing Vee's I've offer it to all of them.

My oldest sons comment last night to me when I asked him..

"You want to attract the youth, make the cars look more like a modern race car, fatter tires, disk brakes, wings and more HP..."

My 20 yr. old son will be going to drivers school this spring, but also enjoys working
on his 01' Cobra when he's home from school, and is currently adding an Eaton
Supercharger to it when he's home on break. He's been around the SCCA and Vee's
since he was 4 and has always wanted to race vee's and doesn't let the skinny tires,
carbs etc. get in the way. He's friends with many of my racing friends and is more
interested racing with those racer's he's grown up with etc....

Mark

P.S.: he's an F-1 fan like his father.

[veefan]

Bruce and Terry,

As sad as it sounds I've offered all of them drivers school and "pick a Vee"... and no interest. The younger one is thinking about it but only because I'm pushing him. Trust me if I had an FC in the garage fat tires, wings and HP, they'd all jump all over it. Vee are really a hard sell to a younger crowd.

I'm totally with you on the "a FV would be to much for them at the d/school" I've told them that, they usually just laugh and say my Formula Vees look like motorized boy scout pinewood derby cars.
(my whole family is very sarcastic... it rubs off...)

[nbrigido]

It's starting to sound like a Pi**ing match here. Not everyone is going to be happy with every descision, that is life. But if everyone argues with each other or not even open to investigating change, then yes, the end will be sooner that later.

Most people you talk to know nothing about Vee and it's existance, let alone most of the other open wheel series.

People interested in open whell racing know F1, CART (I will still call it that), F Atlantic... and that it is very expensive to participate.

I have only been racing for 2 years, never having raced ANYTHING previous. If it was not for the interent and finding the F1200 website, I would not have started. It also took the excellent advice of Bill Vallis and Greg Rice to convince us it was an excellent series.

I could be wrong, But there are probably more Kids, Adults racing Karts than all the other series combined.. Why and what is their next step?

How many guys/girls are driving around in the Porsches, Mercedes, BMW,... that have the disposable income to afford racing in Vee's, love cars, but just don't know about it.

How about the people spending 2-300$ a weekend golfing... The list can go on. But at the end of the day, if they don't know it exists?

Are there good arrive and drive progams for Vee's. Where someone can come out and try it? Hey you might even get a sedan guy out.

Drivers that have cars sitting in the garage and not listed for sale ARE probably looking to get back into racing sooner or later. Thet are looking for the right moment? Is is cost, is it excitement (or lack of) thats keeping them out.

Vee racing was NEVER intended to be "Pocket Book" racing. It is about the driver and their skills. Not that they just got the $1000 manifold.

I drive a 73 Lynx, not the best or fastest car out there. But over a season I was able to reduce my lap times at Mosport by 5 seconds. Yes, means i was a crappy driver when I started, but taking the advice from those around me and trusting my skills, I was able to do it. I am not a lead driver, and have had my ass handed to me by a 15 year old. At the end of the day, it was not the car, but the driver!

A comment had been made previous "Make it Faster and Cheaper" I don't think that is possible, unless you focus on driver development. Parts are not getting cheaper, fee's are not going down.

Sorry for the rant.

[Bruce]

Veefan,

Tell them it is a starting place that will minimize the cost of entering into auto racing. They can always change class and progress, if they wish to. Basically that is how most of our youth in the San Francisco Region has entered the class in recent years. They received sponsorship from their parents. I salute your ability to offer this chance to your children. Tell them a recent Driver started in FV, Jon Fogerty, he now races in the Grand-Am Series. Tell them to goggle FV and see who started their careers in a FV. Hope this helps and they appreciate the chance you are offering.

[budawe]

Jim, give Bob a call at LRE for backing plates. I sent him a dozen a few years ago and he still has most of them. The phone number for Bugformance is 916-929-4320 ext 4. Like I said, they're not cheap but the front ends are on the shelf.

[veefan]

Bruce, I told them Arie Luyendyk started in the class also, my oldest son met him a long time ago at a race track.

Two Vees in the garage right now, tons of spare equipment, etc. no issues, they are just not interested in the class.



budawe,

SEE.... thats the Problem!!! ALL YOU WEST COAST GUYS ARE Hoarders 12 backing plates??? now I know why us guys on the east coast can't find parts.. lolol (just kidin)

[sracing]

Like I said, they're not cheap but the front ends are on the shelf.

Exactly! I also have them. But going to bug meets to find them, then cleaning, blasting, and straightening makes them far more expensive than they should be.
All those parts in the "other" class are 1/2 the price and new. When a customer calls (especially a potential new driver) finds out all that he can get are used "refurbished" at best parts, it's not real encouraging. I suspect there are parts enough to keep going for many more years assuming you want to live with continued price increases (due to supply) and if lack of quality isn't an issue. That is why we did some of the things we did with FST.

Actually if all the new crop of drivers were mechs and craftsman and had pride in restoration (like you and me ) , FV would be viable as it is. The fact is though, most new potential entrants just want to drive.

Some people here have bascially indicated then "scrue" them. That IS a valid position, but it doesn't grow the class. (and I thought that was what this was all about.)

Brian, You are in my age bracket. What motivates you to grow the class over the next 5 years?

Unless, I am specifically addressed or there is a question re: FST, I will bow out of the thread.
It doesn't seem to me that anything will happen to change things and that is fine. I will just keep assisting FV and FST as I have.

[Daryl DeArman]

It always seems to be the newby or those with an agenda that advocates for change. Seldom will you see those that have experience or knowledge, advocate change.

Bruce, you realize that folks that have been in any class for 20 years and have enough good spares to last them another 5 aren't exactly have a valid, albeit selfish, reason to oppose change. I find that when they attack those advocating change saying they don't have the experience or knowledge to make such suggestions, I find that the ol' timers have been wandering the forest so long they don't even see the trees.

I started racing FV's with over 15 years of prior racing experience. While new to the class, I think I have a pretty good handle on the shortcomings (albeit few) of the class and those that resist change to protect their own agenda will be what causes the class to slowly die. Same thing, IMO would have happened to FF/FC if it weren't for the Fit/Zetec. Not saying they would be dead today, but they certainly wouldn't be as "healthy" as they are now.

[Amon]

Jim,

I have at least 5-6 spare backing plates, drums (F&R) plus at least 3-4
starters and gear boxes laying around in my garage or trailer etc. I'm
sure I'm not alone in this capacity.

Mark

[Matt King]

Are you offering them up for a common spares pool? If not that doesn't really address Jim's point about scarcity and the uncertain supply of parts. Plenty of people who have been in the class for awhile have a stash of parts but there is no guarantee that a newbie buying a car will get one when they enter the class. The spares I got with my Citation fit in a shoebox with room left over for the shoes.

Addressing long term parts supply is just as critical an issue to the future of the class as any competition related changes being proposed.

[Amon]

No, just showing that many of the parts are out there and if we don't need all
of these parts, then try to sell some to those in need. It's unfortunate that a
non-jock needed this explained to him!

Mark


P.S. : Please quit stating the obvious!

[Matt King]

No, just showing that many of the parts are out there and if we don't need all
of these parts, then try to sell some to those in need. It's unfortunate that a
non-jock needed this explained to him!

Mark


P.S. : Please quit stating the obvious!

So how much for a set of backing plates? I'm sure there are a few people who could use them.

[Amon]

They can contact me if neccesary!