What Does FV need for the future?"

[PJG Racing]

I have been reading the replies for the last two days and here is why I have not made many races. Safety first. First I won't race with fendered cars! I have entered races only to have had the race group change at the last minute so we have cancelled going. Second if the group's make-up is such ( FC, FE or FM ) it is unsafe and unfair for all cars on the track. My commitment to FV would be that we would show if we could race with similar formula cars (FST, CF FF). Also if we could race with just are own class I would be will to pay the entry fee well in advance for ( as mentioned previously ) 4 great weekends and not have to worry about who we were going to have to race. In addition I would for any reason forfeit my entry fee if I could not make the race to support the FV community. There has to be a commitment. As far as all the rule changes, let me just say I agree with Steve Lathrop.

Pete Gresock
GLD FV87

[craigs]

It always seems to be the newby or those with an agenda that advocates for change. Seldom will you see those that have experience or knowledge, advocate change.

Not always - I still consider myself relatively new to FV and want as stable of a rule set as possible. I'm all for long term cost savings, but not at the cost of a stable rule set. Instability and obsolescence are enemies of growth in my opinion.

For example, longer wheelbase. Really? Why don't we just kill the class. After the first two nationals of the year won in Florida with a longer wheel base car our cars will be worthless. Implement a longer wheel base and my season prep list becomes:

1. sell car ASAP
2. Find a Formula Ford.

[njg005]

I am in agreement with Craigs. I would like to consider myself a newbie and somewhat young by FV standards. One of the reasons this class has survived for near 49 years-rules stability. How many cars will you attract from the depths of the barns by mandating "new rules?" My guess, those cars will be 3 more steps closer to the scrap yard.

[Tiago Santos]

After the first two nationals of the year won in Florida with a longer wheel base car our cars will be worthless.

Oh come on.. When I started thinking about racing a vee, I thought if I didn't drive a protoform, I might as well not even show up. Then I realized how silly that was - turns out it was a Vortech I needed!



I don't particularly care too much about increasing the wheelbase as yes, I'm sure some people will freak out and panic as soon as a new, longer car wins a race. Also, these longer cars will be brand new = costly. A tall guy that could afford a brand new vee (considering what a new Vortech goes for, for instance..) is probably already racing a Ford or an F1000.

[Amon]

My second and less serious response to the original question would be:

1.) Groupies,female in gender if possible.
2.) Girls w/ mini-skirts!
3.) Girls w/ halter tops!
4.) False grid girls!
5.) Winner's circle girl (if we had one).
6.) Full blown bands similiar to those in the movie "Grandprix" before the race starts.
7.) Standing starts.
8.) Modern day version of Linda Vaughn.
9.) Champagne to open ala Dan Gurney!

That's all for now so everyone please return to all of this seriousness!!!!Yuk!

Mark

[jpetillo]

I am in agreement with Craigs. I would like to consider myself a newbie and somewhat young by FV standards. One of the reasons this class has survived for near 49 years-rules stability. How many cars will you attract from the depths of the barns by mandating "new rules?" My guess, those cars will be 3 more steps closer to the scrap yard.

I'm as much a newbie as CRAIGS & NJG005, but perhaps not so young. I could not agree more with regard to rules stability being key. It was a very big part of what attracted me to the class. It has been the reason I was willing to build up a small supply of spares. Spares is not just an issue for the long-term members of our class. If rules change too fast, those spares will be scrapyard material. NJG005 is right that we need to be careful that rules don't outdate the very cars we're trying to get resurrected. John

[craigs]

Oh come on.. When I started thinking about racing a vee, I thought if I didn't drive a protoform, I might as well not even show up. Then I realized how silly that was - turns out it was a Vortech I needed!

That's not funny, I resemble that remark. The fall I decided to buy a FV I made a spreadsheet ranking the run offs finishing marques for the previous five years. I took the list and headed to VSR to spend what I planned was an hour with Steve Pastore. The next day I was driving to Indiana (from Massachusetts) to pick up a Protoform (no Vortechs for sale back then).

Totally off topic, but Steve was (and still is) a fantastic resource that day. We went through the plusses and minusses of about six different marques trying to match up my plans and budget. He picked me what I believe a good one and it wasn't even a VDF.

[Steve Bamford]

I'm as much a newbie as CRAIGS & NJG005, but perhaps not so young. I could not agree more with regard to rules stability being key. It was a very big part of what attracted me to the class. It has been the reason I was willing to build up a small supply of spares. Spares is not just an issue for the long-term members of our class. If rules change too fast, those spares will be scrapyard material. NJG005 is right that we need to be careful that rules don't outdate the very cars we're trying to get resurrected. John

Huh? How does spec tires & a slight weight increase obsolete or outdated the cars we trying to get resurrected? Come on everyone, the number one complaint/excuse for cars not getting out seems to have been the economy. FV is one, if not the most economical classes. Years ago tires were cheaper I am betting so it would not be as big an issue as it is now. Michael will still be up front leading in spec tires & with an extra few lbs in his car, he & every other racer will be saving on expenses. If he or others decides to put that money else where then that is his choice but many don't have extra to spend right now.

[jpetillo]

Huh? How does spec tires & a slight weight increase obsolete or outdated the cars we trying to get resurrected? Come on everyone, the number one complaint/excuse for cars not getting out seems to have been the economy. FV is one, if not the most economical classes. Years ago tires were cheaper I am betting so it would not be as big an issue as it is now. Michael will still be up front leading in spec tires & with an extra few lbs in his car, he & every other racer will be saving on expenses. If he or others decides to put that money else where then that is his choice but many don't have extra to spend right now.

The post is about the future of FV, and the discussion has hardly been limited to spec tires & a weight increase. If you limit the proposed changes to what you chose, then there is less of a worry, although I can think of some. The three of us that mentioned rules stability did not confine it to one or two topics.

[Steve Bamford]

The post is about the future of FV, and the discussion has hardly been limited to spec tires & a weight increase. If you limit the proposed changes to what you chose, then there is less of a worry, although I can think of some. The three of us that mentioned rules stability did not confine it to one or two topics.

I agree, it is not limited to two items I mentioned & there are other suggestions that are valid & should be considered. With that said, you still just wrote a nice reply & completely avoided my question. Could you be more specific as to my question if you are going to dismiss it.

I also see a valid arguement/discussion for rules stability however the status quo is losing racers & this discussion/thread is about improving things so something needs to change, maybe it isn't just rule changes but somethings needs to change.

[Matt King]

Last comment I will make on the weight issue, I promise! I understand that it is appealing to some because it appears to be cheap and easy and would remove a perceived barrier for people who don't think they can make the minimum weight without a lot of time and effort, either spent on the car or themselves. Frankly, I felt the same way two years ago. My car was running around 1045-1050 post race and I figured I could spend some money on a light starter, run less fuel, lose a few pounds myself and get it pretty close. Or if the class would add 25 pounds, I would be right there with no effort. And that's the problem I have with it.

Racing takes effort, a lot of it. Way more to be a National or Runoffs winner than most of us are prepared to make. Sure, we can wave a magic wand and everybody's car will be able to make minimum weight. Then what? It's hard for me to find the time in my life to prepare my car as well as a national champion. He made the commitment to improve his program. That's his competitive advantage. Can we pass a rule to address that? Because it would be great if I could be out riding my Harley or watching TV rather than working on the race car.

If the choice is between small fields of committed racers or big fields of guys who would just as soon be out bass fishing, then I'll take the smaller fields. I think most of us would too, because racing is not about the lowest common denominator, even when you are racing for a $5 trophy.

I can live with an increase in weight and would even vote for it like I did the last time, but I think it will just kick the can of excuses farther down the road.

[sracing]

It always seems to be the newby or those with an agenda that advocates for change. Seldom will you see those that have experience or knowledge, advocate change.

I don't think I have seen anything as wrong as this statement is.

"Agenda"? Yes. Our agenda was to make it cheaper, last longer, and attract new people.

The 4 guys that initiallly came up with the concept of FST (disc brakes, etc) have almost 100 years in building and racing Vees. Guessing, those same guys have built probably 25 cars+ and have raced as many different models. I WAS the NEWBY with about 15 years. As a matter of fact that "experience and knowledge" is one of the reasons we came up with the suggestions to improve the Vee.

The logic that we need to keep a class the same as it has been for almost 50 years so those experienced in drum brakes and link pin beams can keep their advantage is really in support of growing a class and attracting newcomers? I am missing something.

but it comes from years of collecting

Yep. Another great attraction for those who might like to enter.

This logic is not helping any form of racing and certainly not Vee.

I can only hope that those in favor of or in opposition to change have a better "agenda" than Bruce does.

[Amon]

Matt:

"Kick the can of excuses farther down the road"

Please elaborate on your statement because I would love to hear it!

Thank you!


Mark

P.S.; I'm still waiting to hear from you regarding your height and weight since'
you brought up the BMI etc.......

[Matt King]

Mark, you must be new to racing if you are not familiar with the litany of excuses racers can drum up for why this, that, or the other thing did or did not happen. And why are you so obsessed with my weight and height? I brought it up only to prove the point that if you are motivated enough, you can accomplish most of the things you want to do in life.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I am trying to save, or bring back, Joe racer.

The weight increase helps Joe racer because he is a middle age guy that has always wanted to try driving a real race car. Unfortunately, Joe is probably a bit over weight. Joe may never be a good enough driver to run in the front of a regional or a national but he is new and he believes that he will. Then poor Joe realizes that he is giving up 30-50 lbs and now realizes that he will never have a chance.

Joe is also excited about the spec tire rule because he can race an entire season of twelve races on two sets of tires. (SFR Tire rule)Joe knows that his family is not really excited about this new hobby but they are going along with it because it is something that he has always wanted to do and he isn't dipping onto the kids college funds to do it (yet)

I race with a lot of Joe racers.

95% of the people on this forum are completely disconnected from Joe.

Those people (including me) are die hard racers that will continue racing weather the rules change or not.

The thing that most of you are missing is we need to save Joe, not you, not me.

Additionally, Joe makes all of this possible for all of us. Without Joe we will all end up racing something other then FV, or maybe not racing at all.

We need someone that is looking out for the good of the entire class.

Does that person exist?

[Matt King]

Scott, we are all Joe.

[jsteeb]

Amen Jim and Scott...

Matt... I don't think we're ALL Joe. My family is "all-in," when it comes to racing. They all make a lot of sacrifices so that my dad and I can show up at a track 5 or 6 times a year, and play with our over priced toys. My sibling, my parents, my nephews, and (best of all) my wife are totally on board, and all seem to enjoy the entire weekend. I think we would find a class to race in, no matter what the rules (or the SCCA) do.

It goes back to your comments on commitment and effort. I think the Joe Racers are just barely hanging onto this hobby (for whatever reason). If our class is a pain in the a$$, and Joe has to be in it for 40 years to accumulate the knowledge and parts required to maintain his car, he's going to race another class - and we are going to lose and entry.

[Amon]

Matt,

You mentioned the BMI and have continued to drone on about those lazy ass##
who want to raise the min. weight. I commend you for losing 40 pounds, but at
5'8" & 220 lbs, you needed to lose for health reasons alone. That being said, I'm
6'1 & 1/2 and 200lbs., so losing weight is not a neccesity visually speaking nor
health wise. I would like to get my Protoform closer to minimum weight and will
make an effort, but 28 lbs. is difficult to remove even if I get a smaller battery
(-4 lbs.) , gear reduction starter (-5 lbs.) and maybe lighter bodywork it can be
obtained in partial. You still haven't answered my question about your "kick the can" statement so please
elaborate if you can.


Mark

[sracing]

Amen Jim...

Where you been in this thread? Hiding?

Tell us about how expensive FST racing is and how uncompetitve an old short wheel base FV>FST conversion is.

[Amon]

Funny Jim!

[Bill Bonow]

Jim, be quiet! We don't want all the "it" guys thinking the hot lick in "it" is a '72 Lynx B.

Next thing you know, they will all be cutting their cars in half to remove 2" of wheelbase and our long cars will be obsolete and worthless. Then, Jason will go build a shorter one that's even faster.

Side note at to my "agenda":

Not sure about the other three guys, but I just did a count of (27) FV's, CFF's and "it's" that have rolled out of my garage since 1980

[FVRacer21]

It always seems to be the newby or those with an agenda that advocates for change. Seldom will you see those that have experience or knowledge, advocate change.
............
You need to submit to the CRB, if you are serious.

[FONT=Verdana]"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]The fact is that for the last 20 years, those of us with experience and knowledge have been advocating changes. We have been going up against the "it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]On a national level we had the #2 class in SCCA for a long time. Now we are down to 4th – not bad but misleading as the car count is 1/3 the top two classes (who have spec tires by the way..)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2011%20National%20Participation-FINAL.pdf[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]FF which used to be 1st is now 6th and has added a new engine to try and bring counts back up.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]People forget the purpose of FV:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]“A formula for single-seat, open wheel racing cars based on a standard Volkswagen 1200 Series Type 1, U.S. model sedan (imported by VW) components, and restrictive in specifications so as to emphasize driver ability rather than design and preparation of the car.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]The FST supporters have taken one path to getting back to this. My opinion is if changes were made 20 years ago, there would be no reason to have FST.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]ChrisZ[/FONT]

[sracing]

our long cars will be obsolete and worthless. .

You may be right. If FST catches on big, even those Vortec's, Protoforms , etc will be obsolete and the price on the 72 Lynx B will sky rocket. (and they are not available any more.) No problem. We can just contact all those Chinese FV parts bulders and they will be happy to build us a few.

[Amon]

Jim,

"Chinese parts"? Just what I need to have break going thru turn one at Nelson!

Mark

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

You may be right. If FST catches on big, even those Vortec's, Protoforms , etc will be obsolete and the price on the 72 Lynx B will sky rocket. (and they are not available any more.) No problem. We can just contact all those Chinese FV parts bulders and they will be happy to build us a few.

If someone converted a Vortec to FST it would probably obsolete the rest. Just look what the Lynx did.....

[jpetillo]

I agree, it is not limited to two items I mentioned & there are other suggestions that are valid & should be considered. With that said, you still just wrote a nice reply & completely avoided my question. Could you be more specific as to my question if you are going to dismiss it.

I also see a valid argument/discussion for rules stability however the status quo is losing racers & this discussion/thread is about improving things so something needs to change, maybe it isn't rule changes but something needs to change.

Steve, I didn't mean to avoid your question. I was trying to limit the jpetillo rhetoric of another too-long post that results when I try to answer everything. Many appreciated that, I assure you.

Rules stability does not mean zero changes at all. I think for any change there has to be a rules change. Gentleman's agreements won't cut it for long!

Since no guidelines were suggested, I'll make up something in an attempt to answer your question. They may be absurd in your opinion, so just let me know. A guy has a car/driver combination that is light and has 75 lbs of weight already bolted in to meet minimum weight. The weight minimum goes up by 50 lbs. With stuff bolted all over the place he decides to weld in the additional 50 lbs since he has run out of ingenuity of bolting more stuff in. He's has to go out and have this done at some expense. He at a later date decides to sell the car he has just welded 50 lbs in. What has he done to the value of his car? Can he sell it this year or next?

Or... We go to a spec tire with a spec rim - four bolt to prepare for the future of BG beams. A guy has a car for sale with 16 rims - old (current) style with rains (they last forever, right?). That car now needs new tires (probably needed new tires anyway), new drums, and new rims (perhaps two sets in case rains are still needed). Without the change a new owner would only need new tires. The package has lost value a good amount. How much longer will it take to sell?

Like I said, these issues are less of a worry, and anyone can argue what I said away, but I bet you will find people who will have welded in weight and it would be a big deal (costly) for someone to cut it out. That car has lost value. Of course almost any rules change has such an effect - like buying a car needing an updated roll hoop - so this is nothing new.

I hope that was a better response. John

[sracing]

[FONT=Verdana]The FST supporters have taken one path to getting back to this. My opinion is if changes were made 20 years ago, there would be no reason to have FST.[/FONT]

Good point Chris.

When we initially discussed FST, we talked about all of the items that we thought that should be changed. We talked to lots of people and there was lots of discussions. Bill even made lots of Australian contacts and discussions. At any point if there were any interest in a partial change or a migration plan (or even alternatives) , that may have been the path that had been taken. Instead there was nothing other than "go away." So the complete separate regional class was the plan (FST) . We will continue on. We have big fields and lots of fun and are growing. In the last two weeks we have sold conversion kits for two two more cars, and we have just converted an FV XTC to FST. There are others under construction. (Before the "my agenda" thing comes up again... I would have made far more money on selling these customers FV parts or engines. Plus, they procurred some of their parts from the back of a VW magazine!

This is certainly not a $ issue for SR Racing. Gross and margins are far less on FST parts. We make more net on two V8's and a few helmets than we make on FST parts all season.

A guy bought 2 FST "backing plates" (caliper mounts) from me the other day. NEW they were $14. Big killing. That's my "agenda" I would love to have sold him 2 FV backing plates.

I digress... Sorry. It just always bugs me when someone thinks my agenda for FST is $ .

PS. I have to admit that my profit margin on FST disc brake pads is quite good. Trouble is I sell only about 10 sets a year total to all 15 FST customers at $15 a set.

[Matt King]

You
still haven't answered my question about your "kick the can" statement so please
elaborate if you can.

OK, since I now realize you are just an ex-jock, I will help you out. Here's a partial list:

1. I'm over minimum weight because I just ate a huge Subway sandwich. But that's OK, because Subway sponsored the Runoffs so I'm supporting the companies that support the SCCA!
2. I couldn't afford one of those Monster Mannies that Brian Harding used to make. It's a good thing they made them illegal. BTW, does anybody have one they would trade for my stock pipe?
3. My lawnmower has more horsepower than my Vee engine and it cost half as much.
4. Why doesn't GT4 on PS3 have Mid-Ohio? And what the hell is a Twin-Ring Motegi?
5. We need a spec tire that can pull 1.8g, last 40 heat cycles, and be just as good after four years in the trailer. If Hoosier would build that tire, I would show up and race.
6. I don't have enough time to prep my car AND watch Hoarders three times a week.
7. Can't we do something to slow down Mike Varacins? The guy is 6'3, makes minimum weight, can run a set of Hoosier in three Nationals and win them all, and still manages to be a nice guy. It's just not fair.
8. Drum brakes? What is this, 1964?
9. We need spec shocks too. I can't figure out what all these knobs and shims are for. Which end does the oil go in anyway?
10. Why is everybody named Joe faster than me?

[sracing]

but I bet you will find people who will have welded in weight and it would be a big deal (costly) for someone to cut it out.

I guess that could be an issue. But we (and I think most) will introduce mass via lead near their butts. A 10" by 12" x .75" is over 50 lbs. Trying to increase weight by welding in steel is not very efficient since its 1/2 the weight. I really don't think most people adding weight in the normal way will obsolete the car for the next buyer. I think the worst case probable scenero is someone using a steel belly pan, vs. an aluminum one. But that isn't a terrible change.

[Amon]

Pain in the a## to change belly pans Jim. I did it on my Citation to reduce 30lbs.
and it wasn't fun, but well worth the weight savings. If anyone needs a steel
Citation bellypan weighing 36lbs to make weight, I'll give mine away since it's
just taking up space.

Mark

[sracing]

Pain in the a## to change belly pans Jim. I did it on my Citation to reduce 30lbs...Mark

I stand corrected. But it's not a car obsoletion issue. Heck, if YOU can do it.....

[jsteeb]

hahahaha...

Jim... I'm just reading. I don't know if I have anything useful to add to this topics. All of MY answers to Scotts's original topic questions are bolted to my Lynks, and "it" is sitting in my garage - happier than ever.

Scott, et al... please convert a Vortech. My Lynks would love to spank one of those things! LOL!!!! Seriously tho... the more the merrier.

I think the below quotes are all great points, and none of the classes ever really address them in these types of discussions.

4. One thing I have not seen much mention of? Where is the new or next racer coming from? Getting car counts also involves getting more people interested. In Canada we promote our series to the Karters who want to move up as well as to those in the mid-30+ who have a bit of dispossable income.

Perhaps we should do some market research - serious market research - to find out what newbies are looking for and what makes them decide on a class.

I realize that many of the current FV folks have a large investment in spares and knowledge they don't want to give up, but that doesn't help build the class or attract new blood.

How far into the future are we talking about? Is the goal to get garage queens and current owners out, or bring new blood in? If people already made the plunge, and then parked their car... chances are "life" happened, and no rule change is going to get that car our of the garage. New blood or converts from another class are another great source, but the competition for that blood gets stronger every summer.

I would love to see the stats showing the average age of a FV racer compared to some of the other successful classes within the SCCA. My guess, is that the average age in FV trends upward as the average participation trends downward. I don't know if that data is available anywhere, but it might give some insight into part of the problem. I wonder if the prod car guys and the GT guys are facing the same trends? I have nothing against age and treachery, but without newbie drivers and newbie cars, any class is going to have trouble.

It's too bad we have no means to do "good" market research. I would love to know what the majority of people between 20 and 50 want out of their racing program. And, what that same group thinks of FV.

RE: Weight... I've agreed with Greg Rice on this since the beginning of the arguments 10 years ago, and Mark brought home the point at 6'1"/200lbs, and still struggling to make weight. Big Americans can race lots of other classes, fish on their boats, and drag race their SRT4s. Maybe it kicks the can of excuses farther down the road, but if the perception is fat guys need not apply, they won't - and FV will lose another entry to CFF or FF.

Happy MLK day.

Jason

[craigs]

We should be looking at FV does well compared to other classes to get the new kids in town. What does FV offer that other classes do not?

I had to make the choice of what path to take a few years back. Touring classes were out because of the instability. Stock and IT were out because it appeared that there is a new hot car every few years. SM was out because of the reputation of contact. SRF was out because the class was relatively unknown to me and the cars were ugly. This basically left FF and FV. Looking at costs and the size of the fields FV was an easy choice.

The limited amount of modifications played a large role in my initial descision on class too - it actually came down to FV and stock class in BMWCCA where stock isn't quite so stock, but it is close. The depth of fields swayed me towards SCCA.

The final descision was the availibility of a "formula" to build a fast car. Pick one of the 5 right chassis, a good engine builder, shock package, transmission shop, shoes, rotors, and tires and you are pretty well on your way. Try that in touring or IT - the combinations are endless.

We need to look at what new people want. What goes through their head when considering the jump to SCCA? How do they pick a class?

I think we should concentrate on selling the deep fields, competitive racing, relatively low costs, the proven formula that will get you midpack, and the ability to run for a lifetime - no matter how good you think you are there is always someone faster than you.

I don't see costs as our biggest issue - I see the issue as losing new blood to other classes in SCCA.

SCCA and racing has a cost issue for sure, but it's club wide and primarily needs to be addressed that way. In addition to the other advantages I listed above, FV has a relative cost advantage that we can capitalize on.

Do I think it sucks paying a fortune for drums? Yeah. Am I going to like the bill I get next week to replace a few cracked spindles? No way. But relatively speaking those costs are cheap compared to other classes when you factor in part price and potential contact repairs.

Racing isn't cheap or easy, but FV is cheaper and the racing is better - we need to get those messages out.

[smsazzy]

Steve,

You, yourself have always complained of your weight, but you did something about it, you didn't leave.

Bruce

Bruce,
I don't think that is a good argument. I spent about ALOT of $ to build a Vortech. Do you really think that is the answer to bring back Joe Racer? Joe Racer wants to race a $5000 Caracal and feel like he has the chance to win. I think he should be able to.

As for kicking the can further down the street, if you eliminate what seems like an impossible barrier to many, many they will then realize it is a seat time issue, or any other solvable problem that they may be able to address. Sure, it may be that they are dirt slow, but at least they know if that is the case.

The answer is definitely not to just tell the fat ugly morbidly obese guys (borrowing and embelishing Greg's term) and tell them, "yah - just go build a Vortech."

[Amon]

Adding to what Jason said, or they'll go and buy a SM and turn their backs
on open wheel cars altogether.

Mark

[sracing]

It's too bad we have no means to do "good" market research. I would love to know what the majority of people between 20 and 50 want out of their racing program. And, what that same group thinks of FV.

Glad you jumped in Jason.

In this vein there was lots of discussion on the Howden FV board about promotion of the class. Videos, flyers distributed to Karters, shows, etc. I don't think much of anything happened ? We get lots of racers of all kinds here in the store (drag, oval, tractor pullers, mud slingers, lots of VW duners, etc.) . Other than the SCCA members no one ever heard of FV. While few of these guys are likely candidates for FV, some spend more than a good FV costs MONTHLY. So the $ are there, but no one ever heard of us.

I know this may not be in the cards (budget), but I checked with Speed Channel several years ago, and a 30 sec spot was pretty cheap. Do you know how many inquirees we would get with a SINGLE 30 second video on Speed? A good video or Brochure is definiately needed. Or promotion of ANY kind. While FST may be more attractive to the newer guys and we HAVE done some promotion, it has had some growth, but still suffers from the same issue.

BTW, I just talked to Speed again and they said a 30 second spot during a Formula One race would be $3000 to $5000. They are calling me back with more details..,. That could be less than the travel budget for 3 races. And much more could be done via other venues for less. Again, is anyone really serious or do we just continue to just make funny forum noises.

[S Lathrop]

I find it funny that this argument is about a perception that big and heavy guys are locked out or disavantaged in FV racing because of the rules.

The fact is that it ain't so.

In 1984 I set out to design a FV that could accommodate me and make minimum weight. I weighed 230 and was just short of 6'2". I built 50 of those cars, sold the design and it is still on the market. I did make the car in 2 basic configurations, a light weight and standard version. The price was the same. I saved a little on the light weight car. Most customers choose the standard version because they felt that the heavier car survived crashes better. The difference in weight was close to 25 lbs. I could have easily designed another 50 lbs. out of the car, if I thought the market would support a more expensive car. I also sit close to flat legged in that car with my feet against the H beam and pedals depressed.

Scott Rubenzer raced the car for years and won his first SCCA title. It was a light weight version.

Bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with the rules, it is more what people have produced and sold.

[lenhart05]

Here's my 2 cents (yeah I'm cheap, I race a vee.):

FormulaF(ord) is the ultimate class.

After saying that, the future of FV:
Keep it on life support until it dies. (i.e. no major rule changes) The overall chassis and engine are not current enough to support something like FF did with the honda. A Piper Honda is worthy of being placed in a modern art museum. Sorry, but the FV and Fst isn't.

Demand will determine what the next class will be. My feeling is that FV and F500 should die and F600 will be the next big thing. But only if F600 takes a lesson or two from FV and use spec components (not cars.) Common uprights, wheels, steering racks, calipers, etc. Maybe even spec suspension geometry. Unlimited chassis and restrictive engines. Sounds like the origins of Formula Vee! Unfortunately, demand isn't much right now.

Tad

[sracing]

Thanks for that helpful and constructive input Tad.

[Rolling Stone]

I am trying to save, or bring back, Joe racer.

The weight increase helps Joe racer because he is a middle age guy that has always wanted to try driving a real race car. Unfortunately, Joe is probably a bit over weight. Joe may never be a good enough driver to run in the front of a regional or a national but he is new and he believes that he will. Then poor Joe realizes that he is giving up 30-50 lbs and now realizes that he will never have a chance.

Joe is also excited about the spec tire rule because he can race an entire season of twelve races on two sets of tires. (SFR Tire rule)Joe knows that his family is not really excited about this new hobby but they are going along with it because it is something that he has always wanted to do and he isn't dipping onto the kids college funds to do it (yet)

I race with a lot of Joe racers.

95% of the people on this forum are completely disconnected from Joe.

Those people (including me) are die hard racers that will continue racing weather the rules change or not.

The thing that most of you are missing is we need to save Joe, not you, not me.

Additionally, Joe makes all of this possible for all of us. Without Joe we will all end up racing something other then FV, or maybe not racing at all.

We need someone that is looking out for the good of the entire class.

Does that person exist?

Excellent post!!!!!!well said.I chose FV/F1200 because it was the cheapest way into Open wheel racing,I loved F1,I wanted to be a "JOE" Ayrton Senna,I was to old/poor to go anywhere further(FF etc) and I love the class and the people and the EXCITMENT.I REALLY dont care where I come in the race as I would rather be racing than watching,others take it really seriously and thats fair enough,but I know what the class is supposed to be all about...A dream come true to be able to get in a race car :>)be it ugly/slow/fast/ its still mine and im doing it.Getting DAMN excited leaving the house on a Friday,arriving at the track etc,etc.I feel like Senna at 63 and thats the class to me:>)