What Does FV need for the future?"

[Matt King]

Matt,

Don't generalize that weight = fat

I'm not. Guys like that are exceedingly rare. Take a look at the BMI chart sometime and see what the average 5-10 person is supposed to weigh. Guys like you describe are outliers, but 99 percent of the rest of us are not and I don't think we need to change the minimum weight in FV to accommodate Olympic bobsled racers.

[Bill Bonow]

Rather then FST and FV fighting against each other maybe we should work together.

That should work out in SFR and should be attempted as a Regional mini-series.

We tried that early in 2003 and 2004 (a time of pitchforks and torches). Around these parts, the FV guys boycotted any events with "it" cars in attendance. That was one of the factors that drove "it" to start its own class.

[Steve Bamford]

Matt,

Don't generalize that weight = fat

Got a guy that will join us next year who is 5' 10" tall and his weight is 220 lbs.

That guy outta put down the chips, get off the sofa and get in shape?

He is an Olympic bronze medal winner in bobsled (2003).

Good thing he'll be just fine in an "it" car.

Agreed on the weight issue that not everyone should think heavier is unfit. I was in much better shape at 220 then I am currently at 200 lbs. increasing weight will just help even out the class, we are talking 25 - 50 lbs, not hundreds of lbs.

[problemchild]

If you believe that cutting costs is the key to growing FV (or slowing demise), then creating a travelling circuit of "pro" events is not the answer. That is the reason that both Bob and I left FST to return to FV. We wanted to race locally in a "less attractive" class rather than travel. FV is still very strong regionally in a few specific areas. National FV and FST are not so much. Even Bill and Butch are skipping "travel" FST events and staying local. In FV, the Sprints and Runoffs have much, much smaller fields.

Although, the right special events may work, and help, you still need to have a foundation of strong regional racers to build from. Properly-funded racers are coming out of nowhere to buy FFs, put Hondas in then, and go "pro" racing. I just don't see that happening with FV .... sorry.

[Bill Bonow]

Even Bill and Butch are skipping "travel" FST events and staying local.

Greg is spot on. Towing fuel is a killer. It was tollerable with 3 or 4 cars in the trailer, but with Carl out and no good prospects, we're going to focus on the local events.

My bank balance says I have no choice

I think this is true for a bunch of racers.

[Amon]

Matt,

You never mentioned how tall you are so going from 220 to 180 at 5'8 might
be a neccesity, but I'm 6'1+ and 200lbs, and at age 51 I don't think they're
too many drivers in better shape than I. I'm only 15-20 lbs. over my H.S.
weight, so losing that much weight would still put me 12-15 lbs over the min.
limit. How many 51 year olds weigh the same they did in H.S. unless they
we're fat and out of shape back then. So don't generalize and lump everyone
into the same boat.

Mark

[Purple Frog]

First let me say, FV guys are some of the best drivers. I have elected one FV guy as my defacto driving coach. I just don't ever pay him.

I became aware about ten years ago that FV guys were picking events by first looking at the run groups. The more they did that, the worst the run groups got for them. The result of unintended consequences.

Also, the economy is reality. If a racer says it would cost $1,500 to bring a car up to current spec, and he can't afford that. That says something about the demographic.

If a competitor says he doesn't want to drive 300 miles to race. That says something about the demographic.

Major tracks rent at ~$30,000 per day. If you run only 6 run groups to achieve decent track time, you are paying $5,000 per run group. No race director can afford a run group with only 10 cars. Or, even 15 cars. That is reality in this economy.

Until you can get a sugar daddy to promise a director $5 large ones, promote the hell out of it, and get guys to drive over 300 miles, you won't have single class racing.

Semi-pro racing works only if guys are willing to budget the same for 4 great weekends per season, as they would for 8 weekends with mixed class racing.

It is all about the economy.

[Matt King]

Matt,

So don't generalize and lump everyone
into the same boat.

Mark

Where I did make that generalization? I said I don't think the minimum weight is too low and using Olympic medalists as an example is not a good reason to change the rule. Most cars can make the weight even with a 200 pound driver anyway. I know mine could and does. Would 25 pounds help a few people? Probably, but that is not even close to the most pressing issue facing the class.

In case anyone is interested:

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/bmi_tbl.htm

A BMI over 25 is considered "overweight."

[problemchild]

Where I did make that generalization? I said I don't think the minimum weight is too low and using Olympic medalists as an example is not a good reason to change the rule. Most cars can make the weight even with a 200 pound driver anyway. I know mine could and does. Would 25 pounds help a few people? Probably, but that is not even close to the most pressing issue facing the class.

Your attitude is insulting.

Raising the minimum weight is #2 on my list and very important to dozens of FV racers I know.

[Amon]

You didn't answer my question: How tall are you? If a person is in the correct
weight bracket for his age, height and weight, then there's no need to lose 40
pounds such as yourself.

[Matt King]

The last time we went around and on the minimum weight topic over on the Interchange there was no consensus on the issue, but this is one of the easiest rule changes to get passed in the SCCA, so all it will take is a recommendation from the FVAC to the CRB and then put it out to member vote. If it truly is the desire of the majority of the class, it should be a slam dunk.

[Steve Bamford]

Where I did make that generalization? I said I don't think the minimum weight is too low and using Olympic medalists as an example is not a good reason to change the rule. Most cars can make the weight even with a 200 pound driver anyway. I know mine could and does. Would 25 pounds help a few people? Probably, but that is not even close to the most pressing issue facing the class.

In case anyone is interested:

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/bmi_tbl.htm

A BMI over 25 is considered "overweight."

Matt, agreed on what is listed here & I understand how BMI is calculated, it is a general guide but doesn't really determine what is healthy or over weight. My own example shows my BMI was at 30. At that time I was in the gym 4-5 times a week with a trainer & playing other sports every week. My body fat was 10%, I was far from being "overweight". At 200 lbs now compared to 220 I was at, my body fat is actually much higher. I just don't think we should generalize.

I have a FV that needs weight for me to make minimums & have others that I am over minimum with. Now there is likely ways to make my Mysterians lighter by changing body work, changing the floor etc, however all these things cost $'s to change & that goes against what I & others have been saying to help improve the class.

Weight is always an issue in all race cars, high horse powered cars are worried about so it makes an even bigger difference to the low hp classes.

Many people list this as a concern, not sure I understand the arguement against it but I am willing to listen.

[Matt King]

Everyone posting about how fit they are is great, but the real issue is what should the target car/driver weight be, and what minimum weight is needed to match that. There will always be combinations that fall outside that range, either light and needing a lot of ballast or heavy and not being able to get down to the minimum.

Last time we had the debate, we had a few 150 pounders chiming in about how it would be a hardship to them to have to add 50 pounds or more to a car. Others complained that allowing all that ballast would be a big advantage to the light guys who could place it strategically. And there were a ton of other objections, just like every rules discussion, and ultimately there was no action taken even though it did get as far as official letters being written.

My point here is that if we can't even get a 25 pound increase in minimum weight, what hope is there for a spec tire or any other substantial change?

[Amon]

Steve:

Well said! Thanks for the clarity I was trying to state.

Mark

[Amon]

Matt,

If that was your point then you sure took the LONG road to get there!

Mark

[Matt King]

Reading through this might help avoid rehashing the weight subject all over again here:

http://formulavee.org/interchange/vi...minimum+weight

[Steve Bamford]

Reading through this might help avoid rehashing the weight subject all over again here:

http://formulavee.org/interchange/vi...minimum+weight

54% said greater then 1025, however to be fair there was only one option less then 1025 & it was pretty low? Those are my interpretations anyways.

[S Lathrop]

IMO, FV is the kind of class that really thrives when there is a large local group of racers who regularly race together at a few centrally located tracks. They are the kind of racers who would rather spend their money going racing rather than on tires, engineering, and travle expenses.

What we should be doing is focusing on improving the racing in each of our regions rather than trying to fix the future of FV. In Cendiv there are tons of cars sitting around. We could easily have events a Blackhawk, Autobahn, Milwaukee Mile or Road America that draw 20-plus cars from the Chicago-Milwaukee-Minnesota area. The problem is getting them all to commit to attend at least a couple of events a year all together. The regional/national and Cendiv-GL splits don't help matters either.

The FF/FC series is an East coast deal mostly. But what keeps anyone from doing a similar thing at Blackhawk a few times a year. Possibly add an event at Gingerman or someplace else convenient. The program is only requires enough participants to share the portion of the track rental for a weekend. The pro guys are getting 3 hrs of track time and 2 races for 3 days at a track. That is more than you get for a week at the runoffs.

I don't think you will see any significant change in SCCA club racing especially when it comes to formula cars. I base that opinion on 44 years in SCCA, even served as RE for a while.

[Purple Frog]

Per Lathrop's previous post, and mine a few more above it.

Get a group together to put together $10K, Rent a time slot at a track (most tracks want cash up front), promote the hell out of it, pick a dictator to run the event (you can even add 25# to the rule ), and see what happens.
At the end of the weekend pay back the investors.

Get real, it is not going to happen within SCCA club. You got to do it yourself.

[budawe]

My apologies to everyone who thought I was trying to resurrect the class argument but I was just pointing out that the parts issues that Scott mentioned applied to our brothern class as well. How's that, our younger brother FFst.

On a personal note, NOT AN OFFICIAL POSITION, I have favored the weight increase for years. Having weighed many a vee in tech, I know most are in the 1030's range already so making it 1050 is a low cost, fairly easy thing to do unless your packing a lot of ballast today.

My views on wheelbase and fan shroud are uncertain. Either change can trigger new bodies and that can be a very costly must have. Figure out a way to change the wheelbase without making folks spend thousands to upgrade their body, and I might think differently.

Finally, I remembered that close to 70% of all beetles were sold here in Cal. Without the deadly humidity that most of you have to put up with, rust isn't that big an issue either. So maybe my impression about parts is tainted. If you need something, and can't find it, PM me with your needs and a phone number. I won't help to increase someone's stock pile and am not in the business of selling parts, but I will help you in sourcing parts. Yeasterday I was in Bugformance, a local VW store and saw several new link and ball joint front ends. The place is not cheap but the stuff is on the shelves.

[Hardingfv32]

Maybe the solution is not to change the rules but the improve the race format. Years ago there was a semi pro series for FV. Why not reorganize that program and follow the lead of Mike Rand & company with FF ad FC. They have 40 car fields of FF and FC at events that are truly fun to attend.

Start off with both FV and FST as a 2 class run group and see what develops. There are certainly enough cars for 50 car fields in FV alone. You could expand to include Vintage FV as well. There is the potential to do 100 car weekends.

1) We have had many Pro FV series and they all died out. They did nothing to maintain car counts. There is a level of travel that is required that is not acceptable to the average FV racer.

2) I asked this in another thread, what does it cost to enter Rand's FF2000 series? I bet it is NOT less than SCCA! What happens when multi-able Pro series start bidding for the same time slots.

3) No region is going to give FV their own run group without sufficient PRE-PAID entries. So how do you expect to accomplish that?

Brian

[Purple Frog]

Brian,
The committee hands the region $10k for the slot ahead of time. Then its the committee's job to get the entries.
The committee has skin in the game and will work hard to get the entries.

Yes, it costs more than SCCA club. You have to make the decision you want 4 great weekends, vs. 8 weekends getting mauled by faster cars.

[Bill Bonow]

3) No region is going to give FV their own run group without sufficient PRE-PAID entries. So how do you expect to accomplish that?

Brian

This one is about 50% true.

You have to prove yourself first. Pre-paid entries are not likely in FV.

Over in the "it" camp, we now have mutiple series races where we get our own race group. We got this from multiple years of working with host regions, telling them the number of cars coming in advance and have those cars show up. When you are 15 to 20% of the total weekend entry, regions will do what ever you wish.

Yes, we are local. But in that area where we are local, we are well known, respected and requested by host regions (and other santioning bodies beyond SCCA).

I think FV needs to do this on a divisional level. Pick a small number of weekend and on those weekends, show up in force. Regional/National, makes no difference.

[Matt King]

In addition to the practical realities of starting an alternate series, there are a lot of FV competitors who have a long-time emotional attachment to the SCCA. They may not be racing regularly with the SCCA for a variety of reasons, but when you suggest running somewhere else, they have no interest in abandoning their club. Stealing the existing group of competitors away to run somewhere else is probably not going to work.

What could work is effective local lobbying among the FV community to rally around a couple of existing events per year to get a really good turnout. That would build some momentum for the class regionally and it could grow from there. But even that is hard because so many cars that have been sitting for even a year or two need a huge investment just to make a race. As the FF 40th proved, people will do it for a once in a lifetime event like that, but anything else is a stretch.

[sracing]

Rather then FST and FV fighting against each other maybe we should work together.

Well, we once tried. In any case we started testing the concepts to lower the cost of ACVW racing... We did that. We have had no secrets. I (and Bill) have offered any information to anyone that wanted it. This included, prices, availabilty, free flow bench, dyno time (chassis and engine.), etc. This of course has been available here and offered to the committee. I have never been contacted for ANY info or other assistance (until last week.) and that was very informal. Our offer was NOT to drive FST, it was an offer for any type of changes for the FV. (We have weight info, HP/Torque curve info, current drain (fuel pumps, elect ignition), pricing and availablity.) No one has asked. Is anyone really serious about changes?

FST is NOT fighting FV in any way. We (SR) are supporting the FV race commmunity with donations, sponsorships, and parts with the best available pricing. Not to mention free advice, etc. The inverse IS true. I have even been advised that my FST information in these threads could hurt my FV business ! I haven't seen that, but the threat in itself seems to indicate who is fighting who.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

This one is about 50% true.

You have to prove yourself first. Pre-paid entries are not likely in FV.

Over in the "it" camp, we now have mutiple series races where we get our own race group. We got this from multiple years of working with host regions, telling them the number of cars coming in advance and have those cars show up. When you are 15 to 20% of the total weekend entry, regions will do what ever you wish.

Yes, we are local. But in that area where we are local, we are well known, respected and requested by host regions (and other santioning bodies beyond SCCA).

I think FV needs to do this on a divisional level. Pick a small number of weekend and on those weekends, show up in force. Regional/National, makes no difference.

This is an opportunity in my mind for FV to get in on the work that FST has done to be apart of their own race group. I think FST and FV play well together on the track at the same time. It would benefit both classes IMO.

Matt,

I weigh 200lbs and am 6'-1" I have never had a FV that would meet minimum weight. Additionally, since I like to build cars I would like to build safe cars. An additional 25lbs would allow me to have significant side impact protection rather then a couple of layers of Kevlar and still make minimum weight. 75% of the FV guys that I race with in SFR are over weight by more then 25 lbs. These are average Joe drivers that just want to participate and be part of the fun. Are they overweight? Yes, Would an additional 25 lbs make them meet weight? some yes, and some no. These drivers are not shooting for a national title. These are the drivers that we need to keep in the sport. These drivers are also frustrated that they cant get close to minimum weight, thus, in their mind they will never be competitive so they loose interest and their cars sit in the garage. Then five years later they get the bug to come and race again only to realize that it is going to cost $1500.00 in new safety equipment just to get through tech.

Let's face it, most of us are hard core guys that will continue to race despite of the most of the current hurdles. We are preaching to the choir here and not considering the people that we need most to come back into the sport.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Well, we once tried. In any case we started testing the concepts to lower the cost of ACVW racing... We did that. We have had no secrets. I (and Bill) have offered any information to anyone that wanted it. This included, prices, availabilty, free flow bench, dyno time (chassis and engine.), etc. This of course has been available here and offered to the committee. I have never been contacted for ANY info or other assistance (until last week.) and that was very informal. Our offer was NOT to drive FST, it was an offer for any type of changes for the FV. (We have weight info, HP/Torque curve info, current drain (fuel pumps, elect ignition), pricing and availablity.) No one has asked. Is anyone really serious about changes?

FST is NOT fighting FV in any way. We (SR) are supporting the FV race commmunity with donations, sponsorships, and parts with the best available pricing. Not to mention free advice, etc. The inverse IS true. I have even been advised that my FST information in these threads could hurt my FV business ! I haven't seen that, but the threat in itself seems to indicate who is fighting who.

Jim,

You are missing my point. When I say working together I mean sharing track time, becoming one larger race group to have more power and influence to get our own race groups, etc, etc.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Bill,

Maybe "it" should be called FV 1600

Seems a lot less offensive and indicates that there might be some camaraderie.

[butch deer]

After reading all the imput on this thread the only issue I see that has not already been addressed by FST is the run group issue. This can only be resoved by raising the entry numbers. I don 't believe that will ever improve in the present SCCA format. The only solution possible is for racers in a local are3a to pick a limited number of races to attend and all go on the same weekends. If you can get 25 cars you can get a decent runn group in SCCA or outside of SCCA.

[sracing]

Jim,

You are missing my point. When I say working together I mean sharing track time, becoming one larger race group to have more power and influence to get our own race groups, etc, etc.

Scott, Ok, I did miss your point, but I am still not sure how we are fighting any of the above.
We would be happy to share any track time, or even promiting an event. To my knowledge no one has ever asked for anything from FST or the FFDA, other than to go away.

BTW, Our trophies, banquets, etc are paid for with FFDA dues and promotion of events is done by FFDA officers. I don't think many FV drivers want to join.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Scott, Ok, I did miss your point, but I am still not sure how we are fighting any of the above.
We would be happy to share any track time, or even promiting an event. To my knowledge no one has ever asked for anything from FST or the FFDA, other than to go away.

That is my point. Maybe we all need to put our egos aside and come together as a united group which could benefit us all.

[lawyerbob]

That is my point. Maybe we all need to put our egos aside and come together as a united group which could benefit us all.

FWIW I plan to maintain my membership in FFDA and would be happy to work within the FV community to do this (assuming "this" is trying to coordinate efforts)- at least in Cen-Div.

[smsazzy]

I don't think you can get rid of the fan shroud, change the wheel base or lengthen the cars. All that does is obsolete a lot of existing cars.

As soon as someone in a lengthened car wins the runoffs it is all over. Perception is reality.

Here is what I think makes sense.

1- Raise Min Weight to 1050
2- Add a spec tire
3- (2 year timeframe)Allow a restricted version of the 1600 (restrictor plate, mandated gearbox and increased weight)
4- 5 year plan to phase in Ball Joint beam, disk brake conversion

Like I said before, I am not necessarily for a spec tire personally, but i do agree that it will reduce costs.

[Bill Bonow]

Scott,

We have held out the olive branch on multiple occasions and continue to offer it. I'm hopeful that at some point, someone will take us up on the offer. I sort of get excited everytime these threads get going. Makes me thing that the time to come together is getting close.

FV and "it" do play very well on the track. There are always fast guys and slow guys in all classes. At some point, lap traffic becomes an issue. At that point, the class doesn't matter, it's the skill/common sense level of the overtaking and overtaken drivers.

Actually, I'm really starting to enjoy "it" as a code name for.... well "it". I might just name my car "it" with a little vinyl sticker.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

BTW, Our trophies, banquets, etc are paid for with FFDA dues and promotion of events is done by FFDA officers. I don't think many FV drivers want to join.

Jim,

Still missing the point. I am talking about two separate classes running together as a group on the race track at the same time to provide our own run group. Not necessary talking about one club, or one association, etc, etc.

[lawyerbob]

Here is what I think makes sense.

1- Raise Min Weight to 1050
2- Add a spec tire
3- (2 year timeframe)Allow a restricted version of the 1600 (restrictor plate, mandated gearbox and increased weight)
4- 5 year plan to phase in Ball Joint beam, disk brake conversion

Like I said before, I am not necessarily for a spec tire personally, but i do agree that it will reduce costs.

I think that's what I've been saying too - more or less. I'd like to see the Committee jump in here.

[Matt King]

I don't think you can get rid of the fan shroud, change the wheel base or lengthen the cars. All that does is obsolete a lot of existing cars.

As soon as someone in a lengthened car wins the runoffs it is all over. Perception is reality.

Here is what I think makes sense.

1- Raise Min Weight to 1050
2- Add a spec tire
3- (2 year timeframe)Allow a restricted version of the 1600 (restrictor plate, mandated gearbox and increased weight)
4- 5 year plan to phase in Ball Joint beam, disk brake conversion

Like I said before, I am not necessarily for a spec tire personally, but i do agree that it will reduce costs.

That sounds great. But as I referred to above, back in 2010, the group couldn't even get traction on a weight increase. What has changed since then that will make an even more aggressive plan move forward?

Steve, I think you are on the FVAC now, so maybe you can give us some insight into the prospects.

[sracing]

Jim,

Still missing the point. I am talking about two separate classes running together as a group on the race track at the same time to provide our own run group. Not necessary talking about one club, or one association, etc, etc.

Scott,

We DO run together. We DO run as seperate classes. Via promotion, we have never asked to run WITHOUT the Vees. We run well together. We DO try to keep a seperate group from FF's etc. At this point we swing enough power ($ entries) to get what we ask for in most cases. But we have never tried to seperate ourselves from the Vees. (only F500 and FF, etc) To the contrary, we even invite Vee drivers to our luncheons etc. In many/most cases they ignore us. (Certainly exceptions to that.) Sometimes they will come by to look at the cars and we are happy to share any info with them, So please explain. What do you suggest and what point am I missing?

(Added via edit: BTW, our ability to sometimes dictate running without FF and F500, etc (but WITH Vees) should be welcomed by the Vee guys. This separate grouping helps them too. I am sure the rest of the FFDA would love the Vees to tag along to our series events. Noting that FST has not "stolen" any active FV drivers, FST has been good for BOTH classes.)

[S Lathrop]

Butch Deer made a suggestion that might be the starting point.

If you could organize a race group of 40 cars guarenteed, you could then strike a deal with many race organizations for space on the schedual as a single or two class race for FV and FST cars only. At many tracks, that number is probably the limit for a race group.

Your program is a guarenteed number of entries for the racing you want. Race entries are not so good that race organizations won't be willing to bargin.

You can do this within a division or at a single track. It just takes a bunch of drivers willing to band to gether and bargin a better deal for themselves.

Under this proposal, racing might get to be fun again and the numbers might follow.

[Purple Frog]

Butch and Steve are on track. But, in reality all entrants have to put skin ($$$ not promises) in the game many weeks out. Otherwise many will swear they are coming, and then at the last minute decide to mow their lawn. Speaking from experience.