What Does FV need for the future?"

[Amon]

Does anyone know when the results of the tire survey were expected to be released?

Thanks!

Mark

[Bill Bonow]

Bill - Reach out to them (Hoosier directly - not a tire dealer) and ask. Report back and let us know.

Stephen,

No need. As I stated, even if I am 100% wrong, it makes no difference anyway.

Since you're tight with Hoosier, maybe you could expand on the potential for VROC's?

[SOseth]

Does anyone know when the results of the tire survey were expected to be released?

Thanks!

Mark

Mark;

The results will be made public in a few days. Hopefully the current rancor in this thread can subside at least until then.

SteveO

[Rolling Stone]

If 3 drivers are having a great battle in a race on slicks going say 10 MPH faster than 3 drivers on Radials and getting some better grip or whatever..Its a given that when you park after the race you go over and in your excitment chat with the guys/girls you just had a good battle with,so what difference Really does the tire make in the end..its $$$$$$ thats what,you still have a good time with either tire you just went a bit faster on slicks thats all.You dont have a BETTER race or more fun etc,etc.If I have a great time at the track I dont care what tires I would have,but I would care about the cost.

[P3FV]

Thank you to SpeedSport, SOseth & smazzy for caring and working on keeping FV relevant.

I voted for a spec tire evan though I do not feel it is needed. The current tire is much better than what was available 10+ years ago and is getting better. Competition between GY & Hoosier is not a bad thing. I run Nationals in Mid West Div and push my Hoosier R55s as far as I can, well over 6 sessions. Are new tires faster? Yes. are 8 session tires bad? No.

Do not expect low prices, contingencies & long life. We will have to give up at least one. My guess would be you get a longer lasting tire, but no cheaper and the reward for winning goes away.

In 1992 I was involved with a FV derivative at Hallett that was similar to First, we called it V1600. The spec tire was a Toyo radial "DOT" and looked good. It completely changed the way the car handled due to the increase in unsprung weight. The wheel & tire combo was a lot heavier that our current set up and took a different aproach to shocks and springs. I do not miss that heavy package and hope to not go back. Where as our narrow tires don't look sexy, they are very effecient and appropriate for the HP of our engines. If anything make the fast guys run fronts all around

Please try to remember that we are talking about changing the rules for the entire country, not just 1 or 2 areas. We are the most popular open wheel class because of rules stability and the closeness of the racing. You can take your car to any race in the country and be welcomed by the local FVs as if you were cousins. I hope that all of you come experience the "Majors" format this year for some great racing fun.

Neil Cox
NEOKLA

[jpetillo]

Michael says he runs his tires to the cord - he flips tires. He's sort of fast. Steve Davis says he runs his to the chord, and does not see more than a 1 sec degradation - he only swaps from side to side, does not flip. He's sort of fast, too. I have not reached the cord on mine at 20 heat cycles, and they are the fastest they've ever been. I only swap from side to side. Craigs ran 14 heat cycles and I can tell you he was fast on that 14th cycle - not a second slow compared with anyone all year, maybe not a 1/2 second slow. On the other forum there is a guy that currently runs FV & SRF (SRF with a spec tire) and he says his tires costs are no different.

And we are bashing these people for not having ideas of how to save the class?! They clearly have one idea - use your tires longer - you can still be competitive. How many people are doing that? They are not suggesting that this it the full answer. As we bash Michael for running new tires at the Runoffs, my guess is if F1200 had a nationwide runoffs that the guys who thought they had a shot at winning would put on the best (shaved or new?) tires they could. Would that be wrong?

I think if we want to convert these sorry guys we need to show them what the improvement would be and how much it would grow the class instead of just suggesting that it would. Of course these guys want to save money, and it's not clear that the class would gain more folks than it would lose - none of us really know. Is there any shred of data right now (I know, we're waiting for the survey) to suggest if what change might sway the population? I haven't seen it. Many people have suggested that these sorry cars won't attract anyone, period, and tires will not sway that in any significant way. Let's not bother using the look of the tires as the lipstick - it won't hide much.

If I were to vote for what is best for the class, independent of my own current biases (changes daily, as I hear ideas from both sides), there is simply no coherent information for me to use to pass judgement with. I couldn't vote for or against a spec tire with a clear conscience knowing that I'm helping to make the right decision for the class. The survey may help that, but it cannot produce all the answers we are looking for, although it's a start - which is the intent.

I'm not sure the happy F1200 guys are happier than those in my region, although I have no proof of that. One day there was one guy in my region that was pissed - bad hamburger I'm thinking?

We need to just listen to what people are saying without bashing them for their opinions. If there were less bashing there would be more people chiming in, and that would be great for us to get a feel for the pulse of the class. I'd suggest we listen and invite others to post their opinions and agree to not bash. I'd like to hear what they have to say. We might learn something.

[grapefarmeral]

I've been on the road and busy for the last few days and haven't had time to check the forum, but I figured this dilema would be solved by now. Here's my last few cents worth.

I agree with the posts from the F1200 guys, the tires are good and the racing is close. Isn't that what we want.

My opinion on tires, is that the direction should be towards the "street" radial for cost, length of service and no fooling with tire compounds. What possible incentive does a race tire manufacturer/supplier have producing/selling a tire that will last a long time... race tire manufacturers are in business for one reason only...money, there is no altruism or love of racing (some employees yes..board of directors/stockholders..NO) I've raced on the Falkens and, challenge anyone that says anything negative about the street radials to try them before they pass judgement.

The reason for the decline (again in my opinion) is MONEY. The US economy has been in a decline and the prices for everything is increasing. The median income for the US household is around $43,000 and a two income household about $63,000. So If someone wants to go out and buy a new competitive Vee they 're going to spend 58% of their income on a car.. no spares, no trailer, no drivers suit, helmet, HANs...etc. etc.
Bank's not going to finance the deal, and if it's a two income household, neither is the spouse.. even If you buy a used car/trailer spares package you're going to spend $10,000. and that's 25% of your income... road racing is a hard sell. A friend of mine is the promoter at Bedford Speedway and he was telling me that everyone was up in arms when they raised the cost of crew/driver entrys to the pit area to $15.00. The roundy rounds have no entry fees, they often get tow money and they win money. The look on their face is one of pure befuddlement when when you tell them you tow 2 to 10 hours, spend $300-400 for an entry fee and get an ashtray or wall plaque wen you will. We all do this for the pure enjoyment...PERIOD. This is not a stepping stone to anyting but bankruptcy... Correct me if I'm wrong Mike V., but after you won the Runoffs, did Roger, Chip or Frank Wiliams call you about a test drive? I'm going to go out ona limb here and guess that the answer is NO.

I'm for whatever it takes to grow the class.. whether it's a spec tire, spec manifold, grand promotion, etc.

All this hot air serves to do noting but increase global warming...


I'll check in next year, same time, same forum to see what the 147,567th post has to say on the debate...

Al

[problemchild]

Michael says he runs his tires to the cord - he flips tires. He's sort of fast. Steve Davis says he runs his to the chord, and does not see more than a 1 sec degradation - he only swaps from side to side, does not flip. He's sort of fast, too. I have not reached the cord on mine at 20 heat cycles, and they are the fastest they've ever been. I only swap from side to side. Craigs ran 14 heat cycles and I can tell you he was fast on that 14th cycle - not a second slow compared with anyone all year, maybe not a 1/2 second slow. On the other forum there is a guy that currently runs FV & SRF (SRF with a spec tire) and he says his tires costs are no different.

And we are bashing these people for not having ideas of how to save the class?! They clearly have one idea - use your tires longer - you can still be competitive. How many people are doing that? They are not suggesting that this it the full answer. As we bash Michael for running new tires at the Runoffs, my guess is if F1200 had a nationwide runoffs that the guys who thought they had a shot at winning would put on the best (shaved or new?) tires they could. Would that be wrong?

I think if we want to convert these sorry guys we need to show them what the improvement would be and how much it would grow the class instead of just suggesting that it would. Of course these guys want to save money, and it's not clear that the class would gain more folks than it would lose - none of us really know. Is there any shred of data right now (I know, we're waiting for the survey) to suggest if what change might sway the population? I haven't seen it. Many people have suggested that these sorry cars won't attract anyone, period, and tires will not sway that in any significant way. Let's not bother using the look of the tires as the lipstick - it won't hide much.

If I were to vote for what is best for the class, independent of my own current biases (changes daily, as I hear ideas from both sides), there is simply no coherent information for me to use to pass judgement with. I couldn't vote for or against a spec tire with a clear conscience knowing that I'm helping to make the right decision for the class. The survey may help that, but it cannot produce all the answers we are looking for, although it's a start - which is the intent.

I'm not sure the happy F1200 guys are happier than those in my region, although I have no proof of that. One day there was one guy in my region that was pissed - bad hamburger I'm thinking?

We need to just listen to what people are saying without bashing them for their opinions. If there were less bashing there would be more people chiming in, and that would be great for us to get a feel for the pulse of the class. I'd suggest we listen and invite others to post their opinions and agree to not bash. I'd like to hear what they have to say. We might learn something.

If SCCA FV racing was as healthy everywhere, as it is in New England and WDC, this thread would not have been started. If you add in the F1200 and Northern California crowd, both on their own spec tires, that leaves 4 healthy FV areas in North America. How many others are there? There is a prosperous vintage FV Series in the MidWest. Note that healthy once referred to 30-50 car fields and now means 15-20. We are getting totally different perspectives .... from just blame the economy, we're still number 4 ... to, we've lost 2/3rds of our class in 20 yrs and fading fast. That, there have been over a thousand posts in these FV threads in a couple weeks, might suggest that there are more than a few pushing for change, and more than a few fighting to protect their advantages. As with most political battles, lets hope the opposition does not delay the inevitable reform, to the point that, the reform comes too late (and is too watered down) to do be effective.

[Amon]

Greg,

We've only lost 2/3 of our class in the past 20yrs, so why all the concern?


Mark

[problemchild]

I'm sure someone is already preparing a spreadsheet to show its only 60% over 25 yrs.

[craigs]

Greg:

Do we have anywhere participation numbers for all classes? Losing 2/3'rds is obviously not good, but in a vacuum is meaningless as far as the health of FV vs. SCCA itself. Have all other classes lost 75+%? Are other classes on average gaining? losing? steady? Is this a FV issue or a road racing issue?

I don't doubt the 2/3rds number, but without a standard or norm to compare it to it doesn't mean anything.

Don't take this as a post that we shouldn't do anything. We should, but I do not have enough marketing expertise to have a vision for what is best for the country wide growth of FV. Got plenty of opinions though!

Craig

[jpetillo]

If SCCA FV racing was as healthy everywhere, as it is in New England and WDC, this thread would not have been started. If you add in the F1200 and Northern California crowd, both on their own spec tires, that leaves 4 healthy areas. Note that healthy once referred to 30-50 car fields and now means 15-20. We are getting totally different perspectives .... from just blame the economy, we're still number 4 ... to we've lost 2/3rds of our class in 20 yrs and fading fast.

Greg, those are fair points to make. So, what are these regions doing right? We believe it's the tire choice for F1200 & northern CA, or is it?! It's not clear to me though that it is. I bet there are other reasons, too. F1200 is clearly different in many ways from SCCA. I don't know about northern CA. We've also seen regions get rid of their spec tires - one just this year.

What about those other healthy regions? It seems obvious to me that the first step is for us to find out why the healthy regions are working before we decide what the best way to grow is. These regions might already have the answer for some of the other regions. I've seen NE steadily grow since I started 5 years ago - fields have grown to over double the size they were when I started. They grew the most when the economy went bust - sort of odd. I think it stayed the same this past year. We need to better understand this, and also to understand why some areas are fading fast. Perhaps the committee can get regions together to discuss this.

I think we need to forget about what racing was like 20 - 50 years ago. People aren't buying the houses they did back then, either. We should concentrate on comparing ourselves to the other 20-50 year old classes, and learn from that. We can't compare ourselves to new classes - they will always have the highest growth rate, perhaps like FV did when it started. That doesn't mean we can't learn from them.

We've thrown out a lot of ideas these past two weeks, and now we need to start to focus on what the process is to move forward.

[craigs]

OK - easily found 2007, 8, 10, and 11 national participation numbers. Anyone have 2009 and anything before 2007?

What about regional numbers?

[jpetillo]

Greg:

Do we have anywhere participation numbers for all classes? Losing 2/3'rds is obviously not good, but in a vacuum is meaningless as far as the health of FV vs. SCCA itself. Have all other classes lost 75+%? Are other classes on average gaining? losing? steady? Is this a FV issue or a road racing issue?

I don't doubt the 2/3rds number, but without a standard or norm to compare it to it doesn't mean anything.

Don't take this as a post that we shouldn't do anything. We should, but I do not have enough marketing expertise to have a vision for what is best for the country wide growth of FV. Got plenty of opinions though!

Craig

Took the words right out of my mouth! John

[problemchild]

I am sure we can study all this and delay spec tires past 2014. We don't want to rush into anything.

[craigs]

For those of you still playing along at home with my limited data metioned above.

Trend line of FV participants per national race y=-0.42x +851
Trend line of total participants per national race (all classes total) y = -3.5 x +7161

[problemchild]

Who would invest in a company that had shrunk by two-thirds in 20 yrs? My guess is that you would invest in a company that was number 1 or 2 in the market, and still growing. Or maybe a company that had declined, but invested in new technology, and ready to grow again.

[craigs]

I am sure we can study all this and delay spec tires past 2014. We don't want to rush into anything.

I had another post typed on this and deleted it. It's crap that we have to wait even that long. Model what SM did - take a current tire, get 30% off, keep contingency and support and be done with it.

My mind the "best" solution is the R55/R60 or GY430 spec implementation for 2013 nationally and regionally sooner. We cut costs and don't alienate the "sky ain't falling" people.

Let the committee study spec tires for a few years - but let's give us a "solution" now.

[problemchild]

I'm sure someone is already preparing a spreadsheet to show its only 60% over 25 yrs.

This was just a joke.


"lets hope the opposition does not delay the inevitable reform, to the point that, the reform comes too late (and is too watered down) to do be effective".

This part was not a joke.

[Matt King]

What about those other healthy regions? It seems obvious to me that the first step is for us to find out why the healthy regions are working before we decide what the best way to grow is.

It's like politics--you can debate the big picture national policy issues forever, but most of what people really care about happens locally. In my experience, the reason a particular class thrives in one geographic region over another is because it has developed the right combination of personalities, participation and competition to make it a success.

It starts with a group of guys who hang out at the track, have fun together racing and after the races, and don't take themselves or the racing too seriously. It takes that core group of racers who are committed to the class year after year to build a critical mass of participation that other people get excited about joining. People are attracted to the promise of affordability, fun, predicability, and stability. They like knowing they can expect to spend $XX a weekend to go racing so they can budget for it and knowing there will be XX number of cars on average entering every race. They like a predictable schedule of races that is practical and convenient to commit to for a year or more. They don't like uncertainly in the rules, unpredictable costs and schedules, and unpredicable event turnouts where they don't know if they will be racing against themselves week after week. They don't like spending two days traveling to and from the track for every day on the track.

It's not really about the details of the cars or the rules, although those do have an impact. Classes like FV and SM that offer ease of entry, simplicity, and close competition without requiring obscene amounts of finanacial and technical commitment fit very well into this social model of amateur racing. Obviously racers have proven to be able to screw that up royally, but it is the appearance of those things that creates the initial attraction.

Adopting a spec tire nationally is not a magic solution because it is not going to solve individual regional problems. It may be an important part of achieving success locally but all the other things on the list still need to fall into place.

The energy put into these debates could be put to better use if smaller groups of racers got together and talked about what could work for their own regions rather than arguing back and forth about what other people should have to do in theirs.

[Amon]

Matt,

I believe a "spec tire" would help us out in our respective region that's been hit
with high unemployment, and wage stagnation for those working. If we lower the
costs or even stabilize those costs, it will lead to more regional drivers making an
attempt to get back out on the track. The FV regional entries for tracks like M-O,
Nelson Ledges and Beaverun are 1/2 those from 6-8 years ago, and even the
National entries are down, but not to that extent.

Mark

[Matt King]

Matt,

I believe a "spec tire" would help us out in our respective region that's been hit
with high unemployment, and wage stagnation for those working. If we lower the
costs or even stabilize those costs, it will lead to more regional drivers making an
attempt to get back out on the track. The FV regional entries for tracks like M-O,
Nelson Ledges and Beaverun are 1/2 those from 6-8 years ago, and even the
National entries are down, but not to that extent.

Mark

So I'd suggest lobbying those guys in your region to make it happen. That should be a lot easier than doing it on here because you probably have personal relationships with most of them and you can have a more focused conversation. It's also a lot easier to get that smaller group to reach concensus than for the whole country to do it. Plus you can bypass the SCCA national rules-making structure and quickly implement a spec tire. In theory, there is no reason why a regional group couldn't be racing on a new spec tire this year if they choose a currently available product.

[Rickydel]

I'm reading these posts with much interest, but I'd like to point out that bringing up other class's experience with a spec tire is not applicable.

SM and SRF HAVE to have a spec tire, by definition. That is their reason for having one. They are spec classes, and their priority is to have a tire that works, period.
I was not privy to the choosing of their spec tires, but I doubt they considered cost or tire life as a high priority.

Good day.

[AVR_Shane]

Greg, those are fair points to make. So, what are these regions doing right? We believe it's the tire choice for F1200 & northern CA, or is it?! It's not clear to me though that it is. I bet there are other reasons, too. F1200 is clearly different in many ways from SCCA. I don't know about northern CA. We've also seen regions get rid of their spec tires - one just this year.

F1200 succeeds because of one common denominator - COST REDUCTION

there are not "many" ways that it differs from SCCA, but they include:
1) Wheels/tires - this everyone knows
2) no "swelled" intake manifolds - reason: cost...our legal manifolds are in the $300-$500 range
3) we are not required to carry fire systems - most cars do anyways...

bottom line, if we put on $1500 intake manifolds and spent $4000+ on tires in a year, we would call ourselves Formula Vee, not Formula 1200

[Hardingfv32]

F1200 succeeds because of one common denominator - COST REDUCTION

Absolutely not true. The NE division is successful and it does not use the cost reductions you have specified.

Brian

[Amon]

Matt:

I understand your point and it makes sense until you realize that both the NeOhio,
Steel Cities and Finger Lake regions have sponsored races at Nelson Ledges. The
Steel Cities region also organizes the Beaverun National/Regionals and 4-6 regions
have access to Mid-Ohio so we end up with 6-10 regions involved and the logistics
are on par with doing it Nationally at that point. You also have many drivers who
would be crossing over to regions where they run tires not on par with the "spec-
tire" etc..


Rickydel;

Other classes such as SRF & SM aren't applicable, but the FV1200 classes in Canada
sure are a good example of where it works , and I believe it was chosen for cost
containment.

Mark

92' Protoform P-2/05'

[Hardingfv32]

So I'd suggest lobbying those guys in your region to make it happen. That should be a lot easier than doing it on here because you probably have personal relationships with most of them and you can have a more focused conversation.

All you enthusiastic spec tire guys, this is how it gets done! You make the effort to get it done at the regional level using the sup regs. So stop the babbling on this forum and get on the phone with the locals. That is the proven model as demonstrated by Blake Tatum in the SFR region. If it is what YOU want, then get out and do it.

Brian

[Rickydel]

My point was that bringing classes not FV based into the arguement is not constructive.
Their priorities for chossing their tires do not apply.

F1200 in Canada definitely does belong.

[Matt King]

Matt:

I understand your point and it makes sense until you realize that both the NeOhio,
Steel Cities and Finger Lake regions have sponsored races at Nelson Ledges. The
Steel Cities region also organizes the Beaverun National/Regionals and 4-6 regions
have access to Mid-Ohio so we end up with 6-10 regions involved and the logistics
are on par with doing it Nationally at that point. You also have many drivers who
would be crossing over to regions where they run tires not on par with the "spec-
tire" etc..

When I say "regional" I'm thinking in terms of something like the TRO Cendiv regional championship, which consists of 6-7 regional weekends hosted by a variety of regions within the division. This is the level of organization that implements regionally specific rules for Club FF or Club FC and can adopt its own rules for tires. Or you could work to create something like the old FF East-West Challenge with a spec tire.

[Hardingfv32]

Matt:I understand your point and it makes sense until you realize that both the NeOhio,
Steel Cities and Finger Lake regions have sponsored races at Nelson Ledges....

So it is going take a little more coordination in the area of the country, get on the phone and give it a try. I is not like you need to contact many people. You go to the Reg or division with agreement from most of the CURRENT competitors to us a spec tire and they add that to the supps. You do not have to convince them that every POSSIBLE FV entrant agrees. They want to do what the money paying participants want.

This is really very easy IF that is what the locals want.

Brian

[Amon]

Brian,

How many tracks and regions did Blake Tatum have to deal with other than SFR?

Mark

[Mark Filip]

My mind the "best" solution is the R55/R60 or GY430 spec implementation for 2013 nationally and regionally sooner. We cut costs and don't alienate the "sky ain't falling" people.

Agree

[P3FV]

Matt and Brian are absolutely correct. The Division has a committee that is responsible for managing Regional Club Racing and rules for that specific Division. That is how SM and IT7 were born. In Midwest Division we expanded CF to include later model cars with a weight penalty. If you want to have a Spec Tire for your Regional (Divisional) Championship gather the support of the competitors and submit it for approval. If the entry payers want the restriction I would expect the Division to grant it.

Neil

[Hardingfv32]

Amon

He was deal only with SFR, which is the largest region, by far, in the country.

But that is not relevant. He only was concerned with about 30 or so then active, entry paying competitors. Some of these 30, like my self, were not actual members of SFR. He phone each one and got them on board. A few will need more convincing than others. I don't recall if we sign a petition for him to present to the Reg Board, but it was easy to get the supps changed. Now, I am glossing over the logistics of actually getting a tire deal. More phone calls to get the competitors to send in pre-order payments. It is much easier to make this happen if you have a somewhat limited competitor base.

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

Brian, I understand what you're saying that it would be easier to get a bunch of local drivers to agree on something and have it changed locally. No doubt about that!

But the beauty of having a national class is you can go anywhere in North America (well, at least the US and Western Canada) and race your car just like you would at home. The ICSCC (conference, races in the PNW) had the American Racer as the spec tire, but since a lot of people used Hoosiers for SCCA and CACC races, no one wanted to buy another set of tires to race in a different series. So they changed it back to match SCCA rules.

It obviously works well in SFR, but how many drivers down there routinely race both regionals and nationals? My opinion is having separate regional rule sets does not help the class as a whole..

[Matt King]

If you can't convince 30 local racers to adopt a spec tire, you will never convince 300 nationally. That leaves the only route for adoption being a mandate by the SCCA. While it is certainly possible to convince the BoD it is in the best interests of the class (the FVAC is investigating right now whether to officially make such a recommendation) I think it is unlikely given the politics of the club that it will happen. I think the survey will provide some guidance suggesting there is widespread interest in the idea but it will ultimately fail to pass the hurdle of member input, because let's face it--it might be a membership club but not every member's vote carries the same weight with the BoD. It will take some powerful political interests in support of adopting a spec tire for it to happen nationally.

[Steve Bamford]

Can't believe some people's opinions but I am sure many can't believe mine either...

FF has become popular again thanks in part to the F1600 championship series, guess what they have...a spec tire.

FC most cars seem to be running in the F2000 champ series, guess again...spec tire.

SM, spec tire, but as mentioned it is a spec series.

Someone posted about F1200 being popular had nothing to do with spec tire but that is totally wrong as cost control is a huge part of why we have dedicated racers.

We, F1200, have a population of 5-7 million to draw our racers from yet we draw more racers then regions that have 100 million people living in the equviliant geography...wouldn't any of you realize there is some issue?

[Matt King]

There are many reasons for the success of F1600 and F2000 series. A spec tire may be one of them but it is not the only one and to draw the conclusion that it is even the primary reason is dubious logic at best.

I ate a banana today and I was not bitten by a rattlesnake. Therefore bananas prevent rattlesnake attacks, right?

[Steve Bamford]

I dont see where I said it was the only reason, but I will say it is one of them that helps. These two series remain as a non spec series by the way as others have pointed out they don't want to make FV a spec series. Tires do not do that, they will just save everyone money.

[Amon]

Steve,

As I mentioned to Greg in jest, why worry about losing 2/3 of your class
the past 20 years? As you mentioned, it's worked elsewhere in the open
wheel classes, but may NOT work here until we get down to 1/10 of the
totals from 20 years ago, and the "National" drivers like Matt mentioned
who hold a powerful voice over the class finally accept the idea. I'm afraid
it will be toooo late by that time and trying to bring drivers back who have
gone elsewhere will be difficult. There's a distinct trend that our class is
following the past 20 years and it's not going to turn around without
changes to it. We can't rely on the SCCA to help us much because their
focus is on Macro-economics and not our single class that's nearly 50 yrs.
old with 50 yr. old technology.

Mark