Tire Brand Question

[AVR_Shane]

I bet it is pretty annoying listening to us Canadians tell you how good we have it, but you have to admit, we make a good argument!!

[Matt King]

I bet it is pretty annoying listening to us Canadians tell you how good we have it, but you have to admit, we make a good argument!!

It only makes me wish I was closer to Canada or that we could talk some sense into the guys around here.

And once we settle the spec tire question, we can start discussing health care systems!

[hojof1]

we send all kinds of people to get specialized treatment in the states that they cannot get here or in the time frame required. and it's in the news here constantly.

+'s and -'s to both sides, just like the tire debate!

[Tiago Santos]

Seems that MOST of the participants in this thread are Canadian, eh?
Does that mean that USA, SCCA types aren't interested, or just that they don't frequent the forums??

Steve, FV80

I'm Canadian (well... Portuguese, just happen to live in Canada!) but our rules on the west coast tend to mimic SCCA. And I hope to run with SCCA as well from now on!

[nbrigido]

Alot of Canadian action on the boards, well it's winter here..What else do we have to do. Igloo's are clean, fresh moose in the freezer, and Canadian beer!

All kidding aside, many of the Canadians posting are from the Ontario region (Tiago, west coast, but still Canadian). We have seen the sucess that a spec tire has brought to the series and a proud to say it.

Our series is a mix of all ages, with many drivers coming out of Karting right into the 1200's (Vee) I would say 60% of the drivers are under 30, and they are fast. Personally i have raced for 2 seasons, never having raced previously. Looking and examining the costs of running the season was the deciding factor.

The fact we have a fairly young age group in our series I credit to the tight specs. or else would mommy or daddy "Fund the Fun". It's bad enough explaining to the wife why a new Aim Dash is important.

The more people that find the costs of operating in the series "resonable" the more people will show.

As mentioned previously, Fuel, Fee's, Lodging, Food... There is nothing we as drivers (series) can do about it. We have to be on top of what we can control and make is reasonable for those who want to play.

[jpetillo]

Lots of good posts. I'm thrilled to see the amount of incredibly inflated numbers and the misinformation decrease from what we saw in the first few pages of this thread. I was seeing it corroborate the adage that if we stretch the truth long enough, we'll actually believe it ourselves!* I think we definitely had arrived at that.* Please let's continue to be real in our posts - it's refreshing to see!* About being annoyed by our Canadian friends, not at all - good information - and we do get it - it clearly works in your scenario.

I think a lot of regional SCCA FV folks spend a lot less on tires than this thread would have us believe. It would be good to know for sure. We are led to believe that we are cheap and not willing to put the effort/dollars into being competitive if we run "old" tires. So, we stay in the closet. I average less than one new set per year, and I'm competitive. I don't do that out of stinginess. I don't think I've spent $3000-3500 on tires in my five years of racing, never mind per year. I do know that I've spent more than I've needed to.

I currently run a set of tires that have about as many hash marks as Bill Bonnow's long lasting FST tires in post #15, and they are FV Hoosiers.* I'd snap a picture, but they're sitting in bags down the basement.* They have been run for three years, and will make it to a fourth. *I'm competitive on these very tires.

In the past I never kept tires long enough to find out how long they would last - although I never saw a degradation. I threw them out come Spring if I still had them - following conventional theory!

I'm with Steve and Michael on this; properly broken in and maintained tires can be awesome and last a long time.* For me, these tires have not lost any time throughout their life.* I would certainly side with Steve's estimate of not slowing down more than 1 second over their life - for me it's been better.* Perhaps this is atypical, but it's the case.* Perhaps I just got a good batch.* I'm not the only person in my area that has had this experience. This suggests that Hoosier can make a long lasting slick with good grip.* Even if we want to say that my set came from the magic compound batch, fair enough, but Hoosier still made them.* That's the point.

My guess would be that improper tire break-in may be the reason for folks having to buy new tires so soon. The tires I've had that were not broken in by the book didn't last a lot of sessions, just like I'm hearing others say. And the shorter the break-in for me seems to have lead to yet a shorter life. I haves some 3 or 4 slash tires that can't hold a candle to the 20 slasher, and that correlates with their break-in times. If this is the case, then we can either just go with a spec tire that no one can make a mistake on with regard to break-in, or we can make it a car prep thing where the racer that manages their tires best saves the money and puts it towards something else. (I think this was Michael's point.) That still could be a spec tire. I agree we will most-likely just spend any saved money on something else. We need to decide what we're after - I'm not sure we know what it is. We know it's saving money, but I'm not sure we found the answer. John

[problemchild]

Competitive on 4 yr old tires? Wow!

I will agree with much of what John says but with a different interpretation. If you baby your new tires for 3-4 sessions, then they will have much extended life. But you are not using the "goody" in the Goodyears (hooey in your Hoosiers) that you paid all that money for. The best drivers push these tires to incredible grip levels. That is the biggest adjustment when we spec-drivers move to new slicks. We need to learn how to be much more aggressive when the tires are new. If you are not going to use the new tire performance, then why pay for it, and why make it available for your competition.

A spec tire program will be perfect for John as he is already using this theory. He could buy long-wearing tires instead of making his own. Spec tires would put every one on his program. Just think how long John could use tires designed to be used this way.

[jpetillo]

Greg, very clever response as always!

It was not a pro or con spec tire post, but it does show that careful prep can be important and is a discriminator, which is what I think FV is all about. And we all can have access to those same tires - and they can be the grippy slicks - so no financial hit for that discriminator. (Hoosier may have to improve their quality control.) I thought that's what the series was attempting to be about - money not being the discriminator - but good prep being the means.

We are not looking for a spec tire program to be perfect for me. Actually, from what you said a spec tire would not be a benefit for me. Everyone could have the same benefit without much thought behind tire maintenance/prep. We need to ask if that's what we want for our class.

We need to be careful, I don't think we want to see FV go to a series where we evolve to removing car prep as part of the equation. I get a lot of satisfaction out of that - maybe the best part of racing for me - even though my time is very limited in that regard.

John

[jpetillo]

Greg, please don't twist my words. I never said or implied that the tires were babied, I said they were properly broken in. Anyone can find the procedure on the web.

Babying may lead to long tire life, but perhaps not good grip. I haven't tried going there.

[problemchild]

I was a master at tire management. I'd carry 4 sets of wheels, rotating to different corners, and flipping tires on wheels, rarely running a tire for more than a session per weekend, breaking in occasional new tires on RS during short sessions, etc. Many of the top guys have their own tire machines because they were spending so much on tire-flipping.
I don't consider that to be a good part of FV racing.

[problemchild]

Greg, please don't twist my words. I never said or implied that the tires were babied, I said they were properly broken in. Anyone can find the procedure on the web.

Babying may lead to long tire life, but perhaps not good grip. I haven't tried going there.

IMO, if you cannot tell the difference between new and 20-session old tires, then you are not driving hard enough. I may be wrong as I have no idea how many races you are winning.

You accused others of inflating numbers and providing misinformation. Again, IMO, you are just making your own spec tires.

[Amon]

I ran 3-4 year old tires with very few heat cycles at a M-O regional
in October 2010". I was 2 seconds per lap slower than normal and the
car was sliding everywhere due to complete lack of grip, so I believe
Steve when he said it's hard to maintain tires usefullness past two yrs.
of age.

Mark

[njg005]

With regard to John's post, running consistent 1:15.9-1:16.3's at NHMS is certainly not babying tires. I have seen it first hand. In fact it is better than most National drivers have managed over the past 10 years and equal to arguably one of the best. My take on the evolution of this thread-Perhaps a "spec" tire may be right under our nose.
Nick

[jpetillo]

With regard wanting to run at the best heat cycle or two of a new slick to hit its sweet spot, how is that different than a racer using a threaded tire and only running them at the perfect thread depth for maximum grip?

Nick's post hit one of the points I was trying to make. A spec tire may be right under our nose. We may not have it today due to unit to unit variation control, but it may be closer than we think.

Greg, sorry, I was not stretching the truth. I also don't make assumptions about myself or what others do without specifically stating so. I think you know me better than that. I just said what I did, and what my experience was. I'd be happy to go over my lap times and other information with you and the FV Committee on these tires. I can't stretch the truth on lap times.

I have to head out.

John

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

At the current price for track time I am not sure if the tire break in procedure that Hoosier recommends will really save any money. It would require two complete sets of tires/wheels and a test day at least a week ahead of the race. With the race schedule we have it would be hard to give up the only practice session of the weekend to break in the tires. Might be dangerous also going so slow in the initial laps to bring the tire heat up so gradually.

I know from many years of running the American Racers that I have never done a break in procedure and the tires are good right down to the cord. In fact I have turned my fasest ever lap with the cord just starting to show on one of the front tires. Maybe just a coincidence.....

I know that some people don't like the AR's and that is fine. The point is that a long lasting tire, that has excellent grip, can be made. If the AR was declared to be the National tire I would run nationals and go to the runoffs. Just my opinion.

[CenDiv4]

Okay we are 5 pages into this discussion, with probably an infinite more.....

What's the plan, how do we get there and who is going to sail this ship? Is it just tires or do we need to address other areas too?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

OK, I will bite.......

Spec Tires and 25 lbs of additional weight will make me, and 80% of the other guys I race with, happy campers.

I don't see any other major concerns. Again, just my opinion.

[CenDiv4]

Thats a start.

I'am curious what some "legitimate" concrete examples would be... instead of everyones perception.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

My concerns are mainly parts related. I am at a age where I want to be able to purchase new parts for my race car. I am not a junk yard guy anymore. That is why I like the FST concept. Everything is available at the local buggy house.

So, to answer your question, other then the spec tire and addition on 25lbs of weight, my concerns for FV are below in order of importance:

1. Brake backing plates (availability)
2. Upper and lower Turkey legs(availability)
3. Pistons and Cylinders (availability and cost)

[Steve Davis]

Thats a start.

I'am curious what some "legitimate" concrete examples would be... instead of everyones perception.

This seems like a good place to break off to a new thread. Is there a moderator that can move these last 2 posts (above) to a new one ... say 'What Does FV need for the future?"

If not, let's just restart anyway
Steve, FV80

[CenDiv4]

This is good, I just wish we could get more of the active racers to participate in these discussions. We have a good amount "kindof", but need a majority and then lets start going forward.

I have to put weight in my car already I could care less if I have to add more. That is something that could be easily achieved this year. It could potentially bring some cars back out, there are a lot of drivers always complaining about being overweight. Not a difficult problem to solve.

Parts availability really needs to be addressed with some alternatives and timelines. Of course most of us have a good "stock" of such things but we have to look at the new guy coming in too, or try to get those new guys to consider the class more instead of the always over used 50's and 60's technology. It would be nice also be able to say old technology with more modern updates also.

[FVRacer21]

I want to know what they are using for tires:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGu5LMqQ70Q

ChrisZ

[Bill Bonow]

Chris,

Read all the details:

http://www.fvansw.asn.au/fusion/viewpage.php?page_id=1

And they are not tires, they are tyres

These are my mates from Sydney

[problemchild]

With regard wanting to run at the best heat cycle or two of a new slick to hit its sweet spot, how is that different than a racer using a threaded tire and only running them at the perfect thread depth for maximum grip?

Nick's post hit one of the points I was trying to make. A spec tire may be right under our nose. We may not have it today due to unit to unit variation control, but it may be closer than we think.

Greg, sorry, I was not stretching the truth. I also don't make assumptions about myself or what others do without specifically stating so. I think you know me better than that. I just said what I did, and what my experience was. I'd be happy to go over my lap times and other information with you and the FV Committee on these tires. I can't stretch the truth on lap times.

I have to head out.

John

I have no doubt that you believe every word you say. I expect that you are a very smooth and disciplined driver and mechanic who has managed a "magical" set of tires to an extreme. If someone came on here and said that we need a spec tire that lasts for over 20 sessions over 4 yrs with no loss of speed .... NOBODY would believe that is possible. I would not believe it.

I also know, from personal experience, that being a smooth and disciplined driver who rarely has new tires, I really struggled to get the max out of new tires. It involved a different style of driving with much more aggression, which was complicated because I only got to do it so rarely. By the time I figured out what I needed to do differently, the "goody" was gone. The car setup may need to be different too. I wasted several Runoff trips, because, after running used tires all year, the car was brutal (balance) on new tires. There is more performance to be gained from new tires, and this performance definitely effects the lifeline of those tires. A good spec tire will minimize that initial performane gain.

My experience with spec tires was the exact opposite of your fear that the cars would be "dumbed down" to the point that driver skill and mechanical prep would become unimportant. In FST, I was able to do much more "on-the-fly" development of the chassis and setup because there was no noticeable tire degradation. With my new tire budget and tire management programs in FV, I have never had the car the same at the start and end of a session, never mind two sessions in a row. I expect that people that used new tires more frequently would have a much better "book" on the handling change through the degradation process.

You may have found the perfect FV tire, but I doubt you have enough in your basement for everyone.

[FVRacer21]

Chris,

Read all the details:

http://www.fvansw.asn.au/fusion/viewpage.php?page_id=1

And they are not tires, they are tyres

These are my mates from Sydney

Can't seem to download the rules - do these tires fit on standard rims or are they wider?

Cost vs heat cycles anyone?

ChrisZ

[Bill Bonow]

Chris,

Those are just standard Dunlop FV tires the vintage guys use here in the US and in the UK. They fit on a standard 15" rim. The Dunlop compound is soft. The Australians and the US vintage guys don't get very much usable life (slightly more than a set of Hoosier slicks).

I've made a similar suggestion here earlier in the thread:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...&postcount=123

Hoosier makes a much better (long lasting) vintage tire.

[FVRacer21]

To John and Nick,

Unless there have been some changes in the last 2 year, there is still a big difference between 2 cycle tires and 5 cycle tires.

Even if the difference at NH is .25 sec per lap, that is the difference between walking away from the field and 8th - and I experienced it in 2005!

On a National level you can't give away that .5 sec. On a Regional level, it averages out with motors, gearboxes, etc. - but all things equal - I will take 2 cycle tires over 5 cycle tires any day.

At Lime Rock the National guys do in the 59s. If they went to a spec tire they would be in the 1:01s. Regional guys run 1:02 to 1:03 now, they might be in the 3s and 4s with a spec tire - not much of a difference.

Tires should be no different that pistons, brake drums or ring gears - How would you feel if you had to change them even every 5 races in order to be competitive?

As far a Goodyear and Hoosier - give one FF and the other FV and that ends the tire wars.

ChrisZ

[protoform]

I race with Mark: D13 #27 I purchase 2 sets of new tires each year and use last years tires for practice and qualifying. I also use the " Formula V " tire treatment on the old tires to help bring them back.Are they like a "new " set NO. but it really does help. Keeping my budget in control. My biggest expense is driving to the track and home. Anywhere from $300.00 round trip to NHMS $400.00 to lime rock $900.00 to W.G. $1200.00 to njmp. With engine rebuilds and transmission rebuilds I figure in. For me to race 10 races is 10k. Any kind of racing isn't cheep. If you want cheep go auto-Xing with your street car. I have done that and it is a blast. I have won a championship auto-Xing. I don't think I will ever do that roadracing a car. Lawyer bob mentioned Steve Davis I got that e-mail too wants to make the cars faster , bigger tires , better brakes. We have that class fst. I said to Steve leave the class alone. In NER we have about 15 to 25 cars fv 's we have fun with out much Drama. Steve also mentioned how if a fast national guy gets in with the fst's they complain that the fv gets a unfair advantage going down the straights because our tires are smaller , and we get a better draft off the fst's and they can't draft us. Hee Hee Another forum mentioned making the cars bigger and wider and longer. Why are we never happy. Bigger and faster is already there called ff then fM.FE. But costs more . We are never gonna have Formula 1 cars for club racers that you can run a season for $50 bucks. Kart racing is the cheepest form of road racing with 4 wheels. sports Bikes are even cheeper I did that for 3 seasons have an expert licence =to a scca National lic about $5000.00 for a season and more racing. Sorry for rambling KEEP THINGS THE SAME AND A TIRE TREATMENT MIGHT HELP WITH COSTS

[Bill Bonow]

Steve also mentioned how if a fast national guy gets in with the fst's they complain that the fv gets a unfair advantage going down the straights because our tires are smaller , and we get a better draft off the fst's and they can't draft us. Hee Hee

Peter,

Could you explain this in a little better detail?

There has not been a strong National FV run with us in a number of years.

As for drafting, no problem at all. FV puts out a nice wake to run in and then pass.

Need some help understanding your post.

[jpetillo]

Chris and Greg, Good posts and all very good points, thanks.

Chris, I was not arguing for or against a spec tire. I was arguing that perhaps it's not necessary to go to as hard a tire as some might be suggesting for longevity. I was arguing that the current compound may be close based on the experience I have from my old set, which has kept me quite competitive, and that perhaps a compound could be made that could be a slick with similar grip to what we have now (or what my old set has), and have acceptable longevity. A few others suggested that tire maintenance led to longer lasting tires - even down to the chord was mentioned without losing more than 1 second (if I remember correctly). I was trying to add my two cents to suggest that I have had that experience.

Bob's post originally was asking the following:
"I'm looking at it and wondering if, at my level, NEW AAR's wouldn't still be better than used Goodyears or Hoosiers, even if they are a "slower" tire.
Anyone with experience with those tires who cares to share their experience, I'd be glad to have it."

I was sharing my experience to suggest that the Hoosiers can last a reasonably long time and be competitive at the regional level.

You're bringing up 0.25 seconds as a metric to consider, now that's a much different story. I'd be hard pressed to believe that any tire, my old set included, would not lose 0.25 seconds over their life. Although 0.25 seconds is quite important for the national racers, that's probably outside of the consistency of many (most?) regional racers - me included. However, I understand that a spec tire could give a bigger window.

I'm not arguing about spec vs. no spec, I just want to help make sure we make an informed decision whichever way we go. No one of us has complete knowledge, so hearing about experiences (from us regional racers as well) help us formulate our opinions and come up with a plan, if needed. Such a small number of us actually post, so it's hard to know what people are experiencing. Thanks for the post. John

[jpetillo]

I have no doubt that you believe every word you say. I expect that you are a very smooth and disciplined driver and mechanic who has managed a "magical" set of tires to an extreme. If someone came on here and said that we need a spec tire that lasts for over 20 sessions over 4 yrs with no loss of speed .... NOBODY would believe that is possible. I would not believe it.

Of course I believe every word I say. I think the same is the case for you as well. Who doesn't? But, thanks for the vote of confidence! Also, I'm probably not as good a driver as you say, but do appreciate the notion.

For maintenance, these tires were broken in, and have been mounted only once and kept balanced with a motorcycle balancer. I had the $80 balance - so zero maintenance costs outside of weights. So not too extreme.

I agree, with what you said, I would not believe in such a tire either. Of course, I didn't say that.

I also know, from personal experience, that being a smooth and disciplined driver who rarely has new tires, I really struggled to get the max out of new tires. It involved a different style of driving with much more aggression, which was complicated because I only got to do it so rarely. By the time I figured out what I needed to do differently, the "goody" was gone. The car setup may need to be different too. I wasted several Runoff trips, because, after running used tires all year, the car was brutal (balance) on new tires. There is more performance to be gained from new tires, and this performance definitely effects the lifeline of those tires. A good spec tire will minimize that initial performance gain.

And I believe you! I think I've experienced the same thing. And I completely agree with you that a good spec tire would minimize that.

My experience with spec tires was the exact opposite of your fear that the cars would be "dumbed down" to the point that driver skill and mechanical prep would become unimportant. In FST, I was able to do much more "on-the-fly" development of the chassis and setup because there was no noticeable tire degradation. With my new tire budget and tire management programs in FV, I have never had the car the same at the start and end of a session, never mind two sessions in a row. I expect that people that used new tires more frequently would have a much better "book" on the handling change through the degradation process.

That's good to hear how this worked for you as well. I was not the first person to bring up the car prep discriminator issue with regard to tires, but I'm concerned whenever we go in the direction where that is minimized. Although I don't have development time on my hands - barely get to the track prepared - I appreciate it that people do and do well as a result.

You may have found the perfect FV tire, but I doubt you have enough in your basement for everyone.

I never said that, either! I just said that I think my experience suggests that Hoosier may not be far off from making the set of tires people have been suggesting that can be slicks, last a long time, and are not much off the pace from where we are now, at least regionally.

No, there are not enough in my basement and who knows how crappy they will be next year. Your comments were good. John

[sracing]

Steve also mentioned how if a fast national guy gets in with the fst's they complain that the fv gets a unfair advantage going down the straights because our tires are smaller ,

Having been at every FST race in the last 10 years, I have NEVER heard that complaint. Nor have I ever seen a good FV hang with a good FST on the straights. The speed delta at the end of a long straight is close, but one on one it ain't gonna happen. A good FV driver on some tracks can stay in the draft for awhile but that is about it. I think you may have heard something out of context. I am not degrading FV, but the different physics involved are are just too great. Exagerating, FST may sacrifice as much as 10 effective HP in mass and aero, But up to 6700 RPM the FST has 20+ more HP everywhere.

[ajpastore]

Call me crazy but I am really curious as to what the rest of the FV community feels. There are many posts by the same people year after year. Great discussions are had, excellent points are made but in the grand scheme of things it's a small slice of what goes on. The most vocal about any one problem may not be a representative of the majority.
Since the people with the most posts are the ones always doing the talking, there may be many that won't bother to voice their opinion. Sure, they read the forums while drinking their coffee in the mornings but don't bother to speak up because for the most part, it's futile.
So...to give the most vocal something more to talk about, let's get some opinions from the silent majority using the modern marvel called the internet and a Google Forms Survey.
I took the liberty of making a quick survey that we can all take.
It's nothing official but maybe there will be some "eureka" data derived from it. At least some more fodder for the morning news.
Here is the link. I will be glad to share the results as they come in and share the doc with anyone that cares to dig into the results further.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...I3Vnc6MQ#gid=0

Please forward to anyone that you think won't see this but would like to.



-Andy

NER

[Matt Clark]

I see several people referencing the fact that there are not many younger drivers in FV (I am 28 and running regionals in the Northeast), so I thought I would at least point out some of the things I take issue with, and also what some of my friends say/think. Realizing this is a tire thread, some of this will go on a slight tangent, but it still needs mentioned.

The biggest thing I see as a turnoff in FV is the overall cost of 50 year old parts. It doesn't really matter which ones, they are all just too expensive for what they are. I paid over $500 for a set of spindles last year. Yes, there was a lot of time put into them and I am not at all knocking who I got them from, but that is still nuts for hardware this old. Very similar issue with the manifolds. Over $1000 for a simple piece of steel tubing? I also consider tires expensive for what they are too. It's almost $800 to get a new set, mount them & balance them. There has to be a way to make them last longer or make them cheaper. If spec tires are the solution, so be it. I haven't been around long enough to say.

I have many friends who are into racing. A couple even have race cars. Dirt cars. They race dirt because it's cheaper, not because they enjoy spending 3 hours every Sunday washing them or because they like their cars getting bent up by 15 year olds running on Daddys dime. When I start explaining the cost for a FV to them, they look at me like I am crazy. They just aren't comfortable with the fact that our race parts cost so much more than what Larrys Offroad lists them for. Yes, they understand the "race car" vs "dune buggy" quality levels, but when they see what you can get for the same price in an oval car, the arguement is lost. Engines are in the same boat, if you look up a top FV engine vs a crate 350 Chevy. Right rear tires are the big consumables for them at about $110-$120 each. But that's only 1 tire that needs replaced regularly. Fronts are almost forgotten about. Entry fees bear mentioning too, even though that is something we can't help. $250-$400 for SCCA entry fees depending on the event, compared to $50 or less for the weekly dirt track. One of my friends was able to pay for his entire weekend running in the top 5 in a Rookie Microsprint class. Not even winning, just top 5. You can get a top-level competitive microsprint for just under $10k, close to a good FV package. Spare parts are cheap with them, so it's the parts that kill you in FV.

There are other things I wouldn't mind seeing different in the class, but I realize it will never be "perfect". No class can, they can only be close enough for everyone. With all that said, I will admit I am a big fan of FST. I would love to see everyone start the migration in that direction, with a few tweaks to please the masses if needed. Yep, it will cost more in the transition, but in the end, you just might end up with what Canada has. Talking about the age thing again, once the current majority is done with FV due to age alone, who is there to run in the class in 15-20 years? Not too many. I would love to help the class & do more, but I admit I do not know enough about the cars yet. Just that FV needs to start a change in direction before it dies completely.

[Bruce]

I have no problem with a spec tire Regionally. Nationally I favor tires to be left open. I oppose disc brakes. All my reasons have been explained before.
Seriously people, young people will only want to join our class because they feel welcome and are assisted by a sponsor usually their parent or were born into. It will never be as it was. I can remember the RX7's their numbers were like spec miatas are now, but they are dead. FV were the same, but still exists. We must be doing something right, even with all the dooms day talk. I like the stability of the class and enjoy the group as a whole. As for parts, I can sympathise with those not on the West Coast. Parts availability are resonable to find and in most cases cost is almost as it once was. True most are used but that is to be expected of a class that has lasted nearly 50 years. Last year I paid $200 and got 7 beams, 8 axles, 5 carbs, a set of barrels and pistons, and a few other odds and ends. My perspective is not yours, but it is what influences me.

[Mark Filip]

Call me crazy but I am really curious as to what the rest of the FV community feels. There are many posts by the same people year after year. Great discussions are had, excellent points are made but in the grand scheme of things it's a small slice of what goes on. The most vocal about any one problem may not be a representative of the majority.
Since the people with the most posts are the ones always doing the talking, there may be many that won't bother to voice their opinion. Sure, they read the forums while drinking their coffee in the mornings but don't bother to speak up because for the most part, it's futile.
So...to give the most vocal something more to talk about, let's get some opinions from the silent majority using the modern marvel called the internet and a Google Forms Survey.
I took the liberty of making a quick survey that we can all take.
It's nothing official but maybe there will be some "eureka" data derived from it. At least some more fodder for the morning news.
Here is the link. I will be glad to share the results as they come in and share the doc with anyone that cares to dig into the results further.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...I3Vnc6MQ#gid=0

Please forward to anyone that you think won't see this but would like to.



-Andy

NER

I think this is great Andy

Mark

[sracing]

Seriously people, young people will only want to join our class because they feel welcome and are assisted by a sponsor .

Absolutely. However, I do think the drum brakes and to some degree car appearance turns off the newer drivers. We get dozens of people a week in our store. The Vees get ignored. The FST's etc. get the attention. (But as you point out, without $, neither get much action.)

And commercial sponsorship is a question of $ and a series with promotion. It's probably nothing to even consider in FV. Dads and family, yes.

[njg005]

Chris
I certainly agree that there will be degradation of a tire over it's life. Perhaps John wasn't getting the Hoosey out of Hoosiers during heat cycles 5-18 but John and his magic tires continue to get lower and lower lap times at NH (fantastic, competitive times at that). They aren't down .25 sec per lap, but up! (Perhaps in my first post I should have reversed the times 1:16.3-15.9) Is this a function of the tire, or a driver who is not afraid to use his tires at every opportunity to gain valuable track knowledge? I seem to recall you qualifying quite well 3 years ago on 15 heat cycle Hoosiers at NH in one of your first outing of the season. So you can get pretty, good durable life out of the current spec. I know, you would have been 2 sec. faster on a new set of tires, but you may have made up those 2 sec. by simply turning more laps on the tires you had.

I am certainly a driver who must stick to a budget, so I am not opposed to a spec tire rule, but the decision for or against a spec tire must be thoroughly thought out or it may suffer the same fate of the Northeast's ClubFV (a failed FV spec tire class attempted in the late 90's???). Once again, our current model may not be far off from what we are all searching for.

Andy, thanks for the survey and helping organize everyone's thoughts.

Nick

[jpetillo]

Call me crazy but I am really curious as to what the rest of the FV community feels.
SNIP
I took the liberty of making a quick survey that we can all take.
It's nothing official but maybe there will be some "eureka" data derived from it. At least some more fodder for the morning news.
Here is the link. I will be glad to share the results as they come in and share the doc with anyone that cares to dig into the results further.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...I3Vnc6MQ#gid=0

Please forward to anyone that you think won't see this but would like to.
-Andy

Andy, the survey is a fantastic idea.

The forums are an excellent way to hear the voice of very few, but is hardly representative of the thoughts of the community. The survey cuts right through that - nice. John

[FVRacer21]

Chris................
I seem to recall you qualifying quite well 3 years ago on 15 heat cycle Hoosiers at NH in one of your first outing of the season. So you can get pretty, good durable life out of the current spec...............

Nick

Nick,

Cheap Date - In 2005 I finished only 6th the first day driving well over my head. I went out that night an purchased a new set of tires, just to prove to myself it was not me, and went out - with no changes to the car - broke them in gently and was on the front row, then went out and won the race. In a sense I bought that win. (And though my wife would kill me....)

FV is a class where talent should shine, not the pocketbook. Sure, there will always be someone spending more and you do not have to have the best car to have fun. If tires were $50. each we would not be having this conversation, but in 2005 I spent more than $600. for that set, mounted and everything - that is too much.

ChrisZ